Pope Francis Denounces Big Business' 'Idolatry Of Money'

christiefan915 said:
Since you're not a Catholic I'll cut you a tiny bit of slack. The bishop is free to shoot his mouth off about Pelosi but he's wrong about denying her the Eucharist. He's not her confessor and he's basing his comments on the fact that she supports Roe v. Wade, a law that applies to non-Catholics also. Conservative clergy have tried to play the Communion card for decades. I've heard the same thing about the Kennedy family, the Kerrys and other Catholic pols. As much as this bishop resonates with you, he cannot make Pelosi's priest ban her from the Eucharist.

Since you're agnostic, doesn't it bother you that the bishop is trying to impose his religious views? Doesn't it bother you that he's using his bully pulpit as a lobbying tool?

Church teaching is against abortion. I haven't heard of any priest preaching that he supports it, not on the news, not actually in church. Francis is never going to support it either but he's taken a huge step in saying that there are other equally important issues to focus on. Francis is showing more compassion to all people than I've seen from other Popes in ages. Maybe because he admits that he, too, is a sinner like every person on earth?

You know just enough about Catholicism to make you dangerous. You pick up all the superficial memes and use them without understanding that 2000+ years of Catholic teaching can't be distilled into a 3x5 pocket notebook. If you want some real information on the Church and its teachings feel free to ask me or the other Catholics here instead of repeating a conservative bishop's tirade as if he's the sole authority on the faith.
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I never posted that I am not a Catholic....MY religion or lack of it is none of your business....

"HE" is a high official in the Vatican..Cardinal Raymond Burke, prefect of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura in Rome.
not some lowly bishop....and he bases his opinion on the fact that she does NOT adhere to the Catholic Doctrine...
She is not ex-communicated, she should only denied the Eucharist at this point...HE doesn't have to be her confessor to pass judgment on her public actions and public professions
of offenses against the teachings of the Church....

Its not HIS religious views, its the Catholic Churches views.......if she doesn't acknowledge those views, let her find a religion that is more in line with her beliefs...

Burke said Canon 915 of the church's code should be applied in Pelosi's case: Those who are "obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to Holy Communion."
"To say that these are simply questions of Catholic faith, which have no part in politics, is just false and wrong," said Burke a former archbishop of St. Louis and bishop of La Crosse, Wis.
"I fear for Congresswoman Pelosi if she does not come to understand how gravely in error she is," Burke said.

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Let me spell it out to you plain and simple...if you condone and/or advance the practice of abortion, you are by definition not adhering to the Church Doctrine and not a
Catholic in good standing with the Church....PERIOD....there is no middle ground or tap-dancing on the subject....I happen to have two close
relatives that are clergy....one a lowly parish priest and one a Monsignor......and both agree with me on this issue...
 
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organized religion always works hard to confuse the real reason it is supposed to exist.


helping their fellow man
 
NOVA said:
I never posted that I am not a Catholic....MY religion or lack of it is none of your business....
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You posted more than once that you were agnostic. Do I have to embarrass you by bringing up one of those posts?

"HE" is a high official in the Vatican..Cardinal Raymond Burke, prefect of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura in Rome.
not some lowly bishop....and he bases his opinion on the fact that she does NOT adhere to the Catholic Doctrine...
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And as I said he's entitled to flap his gums but excommunication would be the judgment of her own parish priest and bishop.

She is not ex-communicated, she should only denied the Eucharist at this point...HE doesn't have to be her confessor to pass judgment on her public actions and public professions of offenses against the teachings of the Church....
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Excommunication isn't some casual decision based on political views. Actually there are few official reasons for automatic excommunication. Note that none involve supporting Roe v. Wade. And this comes from http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=23212, not a liberal opinion.

1) An apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic (Can. 1364)

2) Profanation of the Eucharist (Can. 1367)

3) Physical attack against the Roman Pontiff (Can. 1370)

4) Absolution against an accomplice in a sin against the sixth Commandment (Can. 1378, 977)

5) Consecration of a bishop without a pontifical mandate (Can. 1382)

6) A priest who violates the sacramental seal of confession (Can. 1388)

7) A person who procures a completed abortion (Can. 1389)

Its not HIS religious views, its the Catholic Churches views.......if she doesn't acknowledge those views, let her find a religion that is more in line with her beliefs...
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I never said otherwise about the Catholic church. Most but not all abortion is considered a sin. And the official Church position has changed several times over the centuries. Examples:

A bull of Pope Sixtus V Effraenatam of 28 October 1588... decreed various penalties against perpetrators of all forms of abortion without distinction.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_abortion#cite_note-26 [However] Sixtus's successor, Pope Gregory XIV, recognizing that the law was not producing the hoped-for effects, withdrew it three years later, limiting the punishments to abortion of a "formed" fetus.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_abortion#cite_note-27..

In another respect Catholic canon law continued even after 1869 to maintain a distinction between abortion of a formed and of an unformed fetus. As indicated above in a quotation from Thomas Aquinas, one who procured the abortion of a quickened fetus was considered "irregular", meaning that he was disqualified from receiving or exercising Holy Orders. Pope Sixtus V extended this penalty even to early-term abortion (section 2 of his bull Effraenatam), but Gregory XIV restricted it again. Pius IX made no ruling in its regard, with the result that the penalty of irregularity was still limited to late-term abortion at the time of the article "Abortion" in the 1907 Catholic Encyclopedia..."

14th-century Dominican John of Naples is reported to have been the first to make an influential explicit statement that, if the purpose was to save the mother's life, abortion was actually permitted, provided that ensoulment had not been attained.[SUP][32][/SUP] This view met both support and rejection from other theologians. In the 16th century, while Thomas Sanchez accepted it, Antoninus de Corbuba made the distinction that from then on became generally accepted among Catholic theologians, namely that direct killing of the fetus was unacceptable, but that treatment to cure the mother should be given even if it would indirectly result in the death of the fetus.

Lots more here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_abortionhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_abortion

Burke said Canon 915 of the church's code should be applied in Pelosi's case: Those who are "obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to Holy Communion. To say that these are simply questions of Catholic faith, which have no part in politics, is just false and wrong," said Burke a former archbishop of St. Louis and bishop of La Crosse, Wis. "I fear for Congresswoman Pelosi if she does not come to understand how gravely in error she is," Burke said.
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Did you ask yourself why Burke can't/doesn't excommunicate Pelosi himself?

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Let me spell it out to you plain and simple...if you condone and/or advance the practice of abortion, you are by definition not adhering to the Church Doctrine and not a Catholic in good standing with the Church....PERIOD....there is no middle ground or tap-dancing on the subject....I happen to have two close
relatives that are clergy....one a lowly parish priest and one a Monsignor......and both agree with me on this issue...
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Ask your relatives who determines what's in the hearts and minds of Catholics, and who is to judge.

Btw bravs, I have relatives in religious life also, priests and nuns. Maybe you and I are related. Maybe you're that prodigal son who's been long estranged from the family, the one they only talk about in whispers. I'll probably call you Uncle Bravs from now on.
 
I've always wondered why American bishops are so gung-ho to excommunicate politicians that support Roe V Wade but say nothing about politicians that support the death penalty. They also never try to excommunicate those who support wars that the Vatican has spoken against.

Double standards much?
 
christiefan915 said:
You posted more than once that you were agnostic. Do I have to embarrass you by bringing up one of those posts?

Did I ever say I was not a Catholic....more strawman bullshit, as usual...I haven't been ex-communicated yet.


And as I said he's entitled to flap his gums but excommunication would be the judgment of her own parish priest and bishop.

Not quite sweetie....you said he was a Bishop and I schooled you on his real position in the Church...
also, a parish priest does not himself have the authority to excommunicate anyone...
We,re not talking about excommunication in the first place...I specifically pointed out she was not threatened with excommunication....so stop harping about it already...
What I pointed out was that the 'recommendation' was made that she not receive the Eucharist....it was not an order and such a 'recommendation' is really
made to the person...."that he/or she should not seek to receive the Eucharist while not in the state of grace, for lack of a better term....

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, in 2004 informed bishops to deny communion to abortion rights supporters was acceptable. In a June 2004 letter to US bishops enunciating principles of worthiness for communion recipients, Ratzinger specified that strong and open supporters of abortion should be denied the Catholic sacrament, for being guilty of a "grave sin." It would be highly unusual to deny anyone communion, and it didn't happen.

Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion................General Principles

http://tinyurl.com/dpckq


Most but not all abortion is considered a sin. And the official Church position has changed several times over the centuries.

Bullshit...and its irrelevant what was doctrine centuries ago...totally irrelevant...
It is generally accepted among Catholic theologians, namely that direct killing of the fetus was unacceptable, but that treatment to cure the mother should be given even if it would indirectly result in the death of the fetus.
The Church holds self-preservation as the high ground.....to "steal" bread to keep from starving in not necessarily a sin....its quite the same
with a pregnancy and a dieing mother to be....saving the life of a woman knowing the loss of the fetus is probable, is not abortion....

Did you ask yourself why Burke can't/doesn't excommunicate Pelosi himself?

Again. Excommunication ?....the question is irrelevant. NO ONE ever said she would be excommunicated....quite the opposite

Ask your relatives who determines what's in the hearts and minds of Catholics, and who is to judge.
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If you openly defy the teaching of the Church, its quite easy to judge, isn't it. ?

and lets can the strawman crap....its waste my time and yours.
 
tekkychick said:
I've always wondered why American bishops are so gung-ho to excommunicate politicians that support Roe V Wade but say nothing about politicians that support the death penalty. They also never try to excommunicate those who support wars that the Vatican has spoken against.

Double standards much?
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Can you PROVE your accusation ?

Has it ever happened ?.............

STRAWMAN MUCH ?
 
NOVA said:
Can you PROVE your accusation ?

Has it ever happened ?.............

STRAWMAN MUCH ?
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Damn, you haven't been paying attention. Both Kerry and Biden got raked over the coals for being pro-choice. You raked Pelosi over, and I imagine a few bishops have raked her over the coals as well.

Never seen ANYONE raked over the coals for being pro death penalty nor for being pro Iraq war. Please, post a link to prove me wrong on these last two.
 
tekkychick said:
Damn, you haven't been paying attention. Both Kerry and Biden got raked over the coals for being pro-choice. You raked Pelosi over, and I imagine a few bishops have raked her over the coals as well.

Never seen ANYONE raked over the coals for being pro death penalty nor for being pro Iraq war. Please, post a link to prove me wrong on these last two.
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I don't try to prove a negative.....you made the claim, you post the proof.....

Incidently, dozens of conservatives on this site have been "raked over the coals for being pro death penalty nor for being pro Iraq war".....you gotta be an idiot
to claim that didn't happen...and still happens whenever the subjects come up.

Even those dems that voted for the Iraq War Resolution still get shit from the pinheads for their votes and those that have their quotes posted on occasion...lmao
 
NOVA said:
I don't try to prove a negative.....you made the claim, you post the proof.....

Incidently, dozens of conservatives on this site have been "raked over the coals for being pro death penalty nor for being pro Iraq war".....you gotta be an idiot
to claim that didn't happen...and still happens whenever the subjects come up.

Even those dems that voted for the Iraq War Resolution still get shit from the pinheads for their votes and those that have their quotes posted on occasion...lmao
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Jeez, you really don't read, do you? Try reading what people write instead of making it up. I wasn't talking about this site - unless there are Catholic bishops on this site - I was talking about CATHOLIC BISHOPS. And how they berate politicians that are pro-choice but not politicians that are Catholic but take anti-Catholic positions - such as being pro death penalty, pro Iraq war, or for cutting safety nets.
 
Annie said:
While there may be a high Church official who comes out now and again to address particular high profile Catholic politicians on their extreme pro-abortion stands, to say the bishops as a whole do such is flying in the face of reality. Likewise to say the 'bishops' haven't addressed capital punishment is denying reality:

http://www.google.com/search?q=cath...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
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But have they ever threatened to not serve communion to a politician who supports the death penalty? or to excommunicate such a politician? I haven't heard of it; I may have missed it.

I agree they are anti-death penalty; I just don't see them punishing politicians for their stance.
 
tekkychick said:
But have they ever threatened to not serve communion to a politician who supports the death penalty? or to excommunicate such a politician? I haven't heard of it; I may have missed it.

I agree they are anti-death penalty; I just don't see them punishing politicians for their stance.
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One bishop's standing regarding Kerry or Pelosi, both of whom are in the 'estreem' cohort regarding abortion does not an excommunication make. Is a public statement by said bishop 'news?' Of course. In all seriousness, not sure why the church hasn't exercised its options more, but they haven't.

As for your question regarding the discussion in general between abortion and capital punishment, there are a couple reasons off the top of my head. 1. Abortion takes the life of an innocent, theoretically capital punishment doesn't. 2. abortions are by the very nature, one-on-one, often without thought of what will follow. Capital punishment is rare and a drawn out process with the involvement of tens if not hundreds of people.
 
tekkychick said:
I've always wondered why American bishops are so gung-ho to excommunicate politicians that support Roe V Wade but say nothing about politicians that support the death penalty. They also never try to excommunicate those who support wars that the Vatican has spoken against.

Double standards much?
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It's conservative Catholic hijacking. They keep the focus on abortion and ignore the rest of the teachings. You probably heard the saying "from the womb to the tomb". It's the Catholic position on the sacredness of life. That means no euthanasia, no capital punishment, no absolute right to war, but you'd never know it because some Catholics make excuses for those things while standing firm that abortion is murder (their words, not mine).

And slightly off topic, the official position of the Church is to recognize that Muslims worship the one true God, same as Catholics and Protestants. But you'd never know that either from some of the bashing by the so-called devout.
 
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NOVA said:
I don't try to prove a negative.....you made the claim, you post the proof.....

Incidently, dozens of conservatives on this site have been "raked over the coals for being pro death penalty nor for being pro Iraq war".....you gotta be an idiot
to claim that didn't happen...and still happens whenever the subjects come up.

Even those dems that voted for the Iraq War Resolution still get shit from the pinheads for their votes and those that have their quotes posted on occasion...lmao
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She's not asking you to prove a negative but to cite a positive.

Oh and bravs, back to the abortion question re: Pelosi... Direct participation in an abortion can result in automatic excommunication, but this does not apply to politicians who have indirect involvement with abortion through the legislative process.
 
tekkychick said:
But have they ever threatened to not serve communion to a politician who supports the death penalty? or to excommunicate such a politician? I haven't heard of it; I may have missed it.

I agree they are anti-death penalty; I just don't see them punishing politicians for their stance.
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I never heard of it either.
 
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