one step closer to unlicensed concealed carry

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


Why is THIS one sentance?

Because they were talking about the states being allowed to bear arms and have their own militia.


They wanted to have each state have its own protection to prevent the central government from dissarming any state.

You people want to fantisize about carrying a flame gun and mounting it on your personal tank.

How do you feel about every rapper owning all the arms they can afford and handing them out to his loyal fans in your neighborhood?
How very liberal of you Desh. Appeal to the scary blackman. And don't tell me how you mean Eminem or the Beasty Boyz. This was a direct appeal to scare white america with the image of lots of armed black men in "your neighborhood." Guns kill less people per year than do automobiles, and automobiles aren't designed to kill. There is approximately one firearm for EVERY adult in this country and they are used far more for legal purposes and protection than for crime.
 
What Desh and the rest of the gun fraidy cats fail to read when they read the 2d amendment is that the right to be armed pre-existed the constitution. While the amendment says that a well regulated militia is desirable, what it really says is that the only way toward that is to insure that the peoples right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. It does not say that the states have the right to arm their citizens, it says the people have the right to keep and bear arms. The well regulated aspect of the amendment is NOT determinate. It is solely establishing a desired result of the armed populace.
 
How very liberal of you Desh. Appeal to the scary blackman. And don't tell me how you mean Eminem or the Beasty Boyz. This was a direct appeal to scare white america with the image of lots of armed black men in "your neighborhood." Guns kill less people per year than do automobiles, and automobiles aren't designed to kill. There is approximately one firearm for EVERY adult in this country and they are used far more for legal purposes and protection than for crime.
Point of order, I believe there are MORE guns than legal adults in America (almost 300,000,000 guns).
 
What Desh and the rest of the gun fraidy cats fail to read when they read the 2d amendment is that the right to be armed pre-existed the constitution. While the amendment says that a well regulated militia is desirable, what it really says is that the only way toward that is to insure that the peoples right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. It does not say that the states have the right to arm their citizens, it says the people have the right to keep and bear arms. The well regulated aspect of the amendment is NOT determinate. It is solely establishing a desired result of the armed populace.
Glad one of our lawyerly types can clearly explain the two clauses in the 2A.
 
Glad one of our lawyerly types can clearly explain the two clauses in the 2A.
It doesn't take a lawyer. All it takes is a basic understanding of the written English language. Note the structure of the sentence:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Can anyone point out the independent clause in this sentence? Anyone? Anyone? How many even know how to tell and independent clause from a dependent clause? Do they even teach the basics of writing any more? From what I see in the schools, not really.

Anyway, the independent clause is the giveaway. ...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Note that it can stand alone. Erase everything else and you still have a complete sentence. Take any other clause and it is NOT a complete sentence. Therefore the focus of the entire sentence is on the concept "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Can these anti-gun twits point oiut ANY other time when the phrase "the people" was used in ANY document of government that referred to the states? Just ONE other time? Where?

No, you cannot because it DOES NOT HAPPEN. When ever a governing document, from the Constitution down to the city ordinance outlining how parking fees are distributed, the phrase "the people" refers to the individual persons under the authority of the government which created the document. When a governing document refers to a state, or the states collectively (but not referring to the Union) then THAT IS THE WORD THEY USE!!!!

Look again at the wording. WHERE IS THE WORD STATE?!? Do we need to look at them one at a time? "A" - nope, that's a article. Not even a noun, let alone the word "state". "well" - adverb, not "state" "regulated" - adjective, not the word state either. "militia" - noun. At least that's the right part of speech, but still not the word "state" is it? Inteligent people get the drift. The word "state" - which is used every other time a government document refers to a state or the states, does not exist in the 2nd Amendment.

Too bad for the whiny twits. Their "interpretation" (meaning outright lie) fails big time.

The PEOPLE retain the right to keep and bear arms, as is specified by the word (wait for it.....) PEOPLE!!! (How about that?)

It also does NOT specify in any way that the GOVERNMENT has the power to determine WHICH arms the people are allowed. As such, it is high time ALL regulations on firearms are challenged. The anti-gun totalitarian bullshit has been going on for over 76 years, and that is about 176 years too long.
 
It doesn't take a lawyer. All it takes is a basic understanding of the written English language. Note the structure of the sentence:



Can anyone point out the independent clause in this sentence? Anyone? Anyone? How many even know how to tell and independent clause from a dependent clause? Do they even teach the basics of writing any more? From what I see in the schools, not really.

Anyway, the independent clause is the giveaway. ...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Note that it can stand alone. Erase everything else and you still have a complete sentence. Take any other clause and it is NOT a complete sentence. Therefore the focus of the entire sentence is on the concept "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Can these anti-gun twits point oiut ANY other time when the phrase "the people" was used in ANY document of government that referred to the states? Just ONE other time? Where?

No, you cannot because it DOES NOT HAPPEN. When ever a governing document, from the Constitution down to the city ordinance outlining how parking fees are distributed, the phrase "the people" refers to the individual persons under the authority of the government which created the document. When a governing document refers to a state, or the states collectively (but not referring to the Union) then THAT IS THE WORD THEY USE!!!!

Look again at the wording. WHERE IS THE WORD STATE?!? Do we need to look at them one at a time? "A" - nope, that's a article. Not even a noun, let alone the word "state". "well" - adverb, not "state" "regulated" - adjective, not the word state either. "militia" - noun. At least that's the right part of speech, but still not the word "state" is it? Inteligent people get the drift. The word "state" - which is used every other time a government document refers to a state or the states, does not exist in the 2nd Amendment.

Too bad for the whiny twits. Their "interpretation" (meaning outright lie) fails big time.

The PEOPLE retain the right to keep and bear arms, as is specified by the word (wait for it.....) PEOPLE!!! (How about that?)

It also does NOT specify in any way that the GOVERNMENT has the power to determine WHICH arms the people are allowed. As such, it is high time ALL regulations on firearms are challenged. The anti-gun totalitarian bullshit has been going on for over 76 years, and that is about 176 years too long.

So 'rules' made in the 1780s, before high explosive, before automatic killing machines, before the splitting of the atom, before mortgages, motor cars, internal combustion engines, air conditioning, central heating are the rules you think you can justify and live by in 2010 following one of the highest death rates by guns in the world. Well, its your country, you have the right to live and die early in it.
Gaat yur toom stone writ, pardner?
 
So 'rules' made in the 1780s, before high explosive, before automatic killing machines, before the splitting of the atom, before mortgages, motor cars, internal combustion engines, air conditioning, central heating are the rules you think you can justify and live by in 2010 following one of the highest death rates by guns in the world. Well, its your country, you have the right to live and die early in it.
Gaat yur toom stone writ, pardner?

Gun control would maybe be effective at reducing murders if you could completely cut off all supplies and manage to find and destroy all the guns in the country. Otherwise, it probably just won't be that effective one way or the other.
 
What Desh and the rest of the gun fraidy cats fail to read when they read the 2d amendment is that the right to be armed pre-existed the constitution. While the amendment says that a well regulated militia is desirable, what it really says is that the only way toward that is to insure that the peoples right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. It does not say that the states have the right to arm their citizens, it says the people have the right to keep and bear arms. The well regulated aspect of the amendment is NOT determinate. It is solely establishing a desired result of the armed populace.

That is your interpitation.
 
Gun control would maybe be effective at reducing murders if you could completely cut off all supplies and manage to find and destroy all the guns in the country. Otherwise, it probably just won't be that effective one way or the other.

You are probably right. It has gone way too far. Easier to change the ridiculous mindset that believes everyone in the neighbourhood is a rapist and or a murderer and all non Americans are bomb strapping tourists!!!! (GWB)
 
That's rather irrelevant to what is at hand. The ability of the president to call forth the militia in a time of need does not preclude them from providing their own personal arms and supplies (as per the whole 'well regulated' part).

At the time this country was being formed a gun was a a must have tool to feed and protect your family.

There were wild animals about that in a pinch you could cook up after protecting yourself from them.

There was no reason to even think people would not need a gun forever.

They wanted the militia to arm itself because it was the cheapest way to assemble an armed force at short notice.

I really think you people imagine that because I dont agree with your interpitation of the line that you think I want your fucking guns taken away.

I dont want your guns taken away, I dont want you to force me to have to carry a gun.

We have reasonable gun laws in this country. They do not infringe your right to have a gun. They do not violate any constitutional statements.


The peoples right to bare arms is what they said, why did they not say the citizens right to bare arms.

Becuase they were talking about the militia which was well regulated by the people (you know the ones who the state government was supposed to be of, for and by).


They knew the government could not take all the guns of people even if it wished to.

Why would you take away a tool that they could not survive the wild without.
 
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


Why is THIS one sentance?

Because they were talking about the states being allowed to bear arms and have their own militia.


They wanted to have each state have its own protection to prevent the central government from dissarming any state.

You people want to fantisize about carrying a flame gun and mounting it on your personal tank.

How do you feel about every rapper owning all the arms they can afford and handing them out to his loyal fans in your neighborhood?

Your argument only works if you maintain that the Bill of Rights is about protecting the rights of teh states and not the individuals.

So, by that logic, only the states have a right to free speech ect ect?
 
So 'rules' made in the 1780s, before high explosive, before automatic killing machines, before the splitting of the atom, before mortgages, motor cars, internal combustion engines, air conditioning, central heating are the rules you think you can justify and live by in 2010 following one of the highest death rates by guns in the world. Well, its your country, you have the right to live and die early in it.
Gaat yur toom stone writ, pardner?

a new century does not invalidate our constitution. It was written to restrict government, not the people.
 
At the time this country was being formed a gun was a a must have tool to feed and protect your family.
Yes, in addition to protecting your family from tyranny.

There were wild animals about that in a pinch you could cook up after protecting yourself from them.
Yeah, lovely and all that, but not mentioned in the constitution, nor in any era commentary from the Founders.

There was no reason to even think people would not need a gun forever.
Oh really? I know there are a lot of people who'd beg to differ on that one. I think the only time people will stop needing guns is either when we as a species give up violence, or when we invent something that does a better job than the gun.

They wanted the militia to arm itself because it was the cheapest way to assemble an armed force at short notice.
Yeah, and being oppressed by a standing army and viewing a standing army as a instrument of a tyrant had nothing to do with it :palm:

I really think you people imagine that because I dont agree with your interpitation of the line that you think I want your fucking guns taken away.
Your interpretation is what has led to infringement after infringement on the uninfringeable.

I dont want your guns taken away, I dont want you to force me to have to carry a gun.
Uhh.... no one is suggesting anything like that. If you don't want to carry or own a gun, fine, no one else will care.

We have reasonable gun laws in this country. They do not infringe your right to have a gun. They do not violate any constitutional statements.
Oh yes they do, they most certainly do violate the constitution.


The peoples right to bare arms is what they said, why did they not say the citizens right to bare arms.
So the rights of the people in all the other amendments in the BOR means the rights of the states, even though they make seperate mentions of people and states, clearly indicating a distinct difference between the two?

Becuase they were talking about the militia which was well regulated by the people (you know the ones who the state government was supposed to be of, for and by).
No, see the point above. The PEOPLE and the STATE are different words, with different meanings. That's why the Founders distinguished between the two of them.
 
Tell me the difference between the people in the fourth amendment and the second amendment. (This argument is Lawrence Tribe's. One of the single most liberal constitutional lawyers in this country. He says there is no difference between the people in any of the amendments.)
 
At the time this country was being formed a gun was a a must have tool to feed and protect your family. There were wild animals about that in a pinch you could cook up after protecting yourself from them.
While true, that is not the reason they wrote the 2nd Amendment. Did you read the quotes, statements by the writers and supporters of the 2nd amendment at its signing? Not once did they mention protecting themselves from wild animals, nor hunting, nor survival. What they Did mention, repeatedly, was the need for the people to arm themselves against tyranny.

There was no reason to even think people would not need a gun forever.
And there still is no reason to believe the people will nopt forever need firearms, because when it comes to the REASON for the 2nd Amendment, you still have your head firmly implanted up the donkey's ass.

They wanted the militia to arm itself because it was the cheapest way to assemble an armed force at short notice.
That is the only thing you've said that is in any way accurate.

I really think you people imagine that because I dont agree with your interpitation of the line that you think I want your fucking guns taken away.

I dont want your guns taken away, I dont want you to force me to have to carry a gun.
From what I have read, no one has accused you of that desire. But just because you do not want to take my firearms does not mean you are not totally fucked in the head when it comes to understanding the 2nd Amendment. The fact is, whether you want to take firearms rights away or not, you are using the very same arguments used by those who DO. And you are every bit as wrong to use those arguments as the totalitarian fucks who would remove 2nd Amendment rights permanently.

We have reasonable gun laws in this country. They do not infringe your right to have a gun. They do not violate any constitutional statements.
Yes, they do infringe, and they do violate the Constitution, and as such, no, they are not reasonable. Reasonable laws are those that make it illegal to sell a firearm to a person whose 2nd amendment rights have been constitutionally removed via due process of law. Any other laws which curtail sales to law abiding citizens, regardless if the intent of the law, are not reasonable - they are stupid as well as infringing.

Take the laws governing full auto firearms. Can you point, specifically, to the clause in the Constitution that gives the federal government the authority to define WHAT firearms are included under that "shall not infringe" clause? Did they say "rifles and pistols" in the 2nd Amendment so as to preclude cannon and other implements of warfare? No they did not, and it was, indeed, not uncommon for people to own their own cannon, along with the ammunition.

Additionally, more than one founder stated, quite clearly, that the intent of securing the right to arms included "every other terrible implement of the soldier". Try as you might to IGNORE the intent of the founders with your repetition of made-up lies by the anti-gun liberal tyrants, their intent was written in the annals of history for anyone with a brain to read and comprehend.

Or, take the laws which prohibit the possession of a firearm in certain areas. That is a DIRECT violation of the "AND BEAR ARMS" portion of the 2nd Amendment. That is neither constitutional nor reasonable. Treating law abiding citizens as potential criminals just because they are entering a building controlled by government is demeaning, insulting, and totalitarian.

The peoples right to bare arms is what they said, why did they not say the citizens right to bare arms.
Because the word citizen was not officially defined until the 14th Amendment, 77 years later. For them, the word PEOPLE was good enough, considering they invariably used that word when they meant citizens, and invariably used the word STATE when they meant the states. You are grasping at imaginary straws trying to defend your interpretation. Is that because you know it to be a lie? Or are you truly that assininely stupid?

Becuase they were talking about the militia which was well regulated by the people (you know the ones who the state government was supposed to be of, for and by).
Wrong again. (and again, and again, and again, and again, etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum) The PEOPLE are the PEOPLE. Show ONE, just ONE other time in ALL government ddocuments through the entire history of the United States when the word PEOPLE referred to the government. Just ONE. Problme is, you cannot. So you make up the lame "the government of the people" bullshit. Try to remember who coined that phrase, and when. One more time, your knowledge of histrory shows you to be an ignorant fool.

They knew the government could not take all the guns of people even if it wished to.

Why would you take away a tool that they could not survive the wild without.
They wouldn't. That is the point. As a tool for survival, the use of firearms was never at issue. For the I-can't-count-how-many-times this has been pointed out to you brain dead historically illiterate morons, IT"S NOT ABOUT THAT!!! It never HAS been about that. It WAS and IS about assuring the PEOPLE (ie: each and every human being of the United States of America, individually and collectively) will always have the means to stave off tyranny. The proof is in the writing and written recordings of statements by the people who wrote and debated the Bill of Rights. Have you bothered to read them, or are you too invested in your own ignorance?
 
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