On banning the Confederate Flag and Renaming Military Bases

[Airstrip One]

Churchill was easily in the top 6 most gruesome mass murderers of the 20th Century.

The Bengali Famine of 43, the Dresden Firebombing, , the Mau Mau internment camps, the Central European take over to appease Stalin at Yalta, Tehran & Potsdam conferences, etc. etc.

Dresden was a highlight of WWII.

 

[Mason Michaels]

Best work on the Civil War I’ve read.

Best single volume

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Best single volume

Shelby Foote’s three volume work, despite his lost cause beliefs which occasionally pop up is a great read too. Probably the best work on the Civil War ever written was Grants 2 volume memoirs but I haven’t completed reading it yet but I’m gob smacked by what an excellent writer Grant was.

 

[Mason Michaels]

Shelby Foote’s three volume work, despite his lost cause beliefs which occasionally pop up is a great read too. Probably the best work on the Civil War ever written was Grants 2 volume memoirs but I haven’t completed reading it yet but I’m gob smacked by what an excellent writer Grant was.

Get the Library of Congress editions of Grant's and Sherman's memoirs,lots of extras!

 

[cancel2 2022]

Tom...the reason Great Britain refused to recognize the Confederacy during the war was that the Confederates not only refused to abolish slavery they refused to even compromise on the issue.

Mott, stop being so condescending please. I am talking about if there hadn't been a war. Stop erecting strawmen, jetzt ist alles klar? Or would you prefer Thai; เข้าใจไหม? I am perfectly well aware of that, my Google subscription is up to date. I noticed that you neatly avoided the point made about Britain and Brazil, probably because you didn't know that.

I will reiterate that if the North hadn't pursued an all out war against the South then they would have had to turn to the British, seeing as the majority of cotton weaving was done there, Lancashire to be exact. I further contend that the huge damage done to the US, especially the South, was not worth the price of 700,000 military deaths and over a million non-military deaths, many ex-black slaves, who died from starvation, disease, violent rape, murder by Union soldiers carrying out revenge attacks and carpet baggers.

 

[Cypress]

I don’t disagree with that but that’s just chattel slavery. Even though serfdom in central and and Eastern Europe had been outlawed by the mid 19th century It still existed de facto or in fact for another half century nor does it change the fact that by mid 19th most of the world was still agrarian feudal societies in which the Southern Confederacy had more in common with than the industrialized region of Northern Europe and the US at that time.

Nor did I imply that the Confederate or other Feudal States of that time should be emulated. As I succinctly stated we found a better and more egalitarian way that is infinitely superior but that does not change the fact that our way was revolutionary to the rest of the world and was certainly not the status quo for the vast majority of this planets geography at that time. I think this an important point to understand and by looking at this situation then, anachronistically, we fail to see how revolutionary our superior way now was back then. It was not the status quo for the vast majority of the human population at that time. Agrarian feudalism was.

It is important to understand how unique and revolutionary our new egalitarian system was back then to understand why others would fight and die in a counter revolution to oppose our uniquely new way of structuring a nations social structures on an egalitarian basis. It was a transcendent and unheard of revolutionary system unheard of in most of the world. It is important for us to understand that as it gives us insight as to why people back then opposed it.

I am not sure I buy the argument that the Confereracy was representative of world norms, while the Union was revolutionary and unique.

Since the United States presents itself as the modern progeny of western civilization, it is the western world we compare our standard of conduct to. I don't think our nation has any business pointing to Africa, China, Brazil, or the steppes of Eurasia to justify our conduct.

Chattel slavery did not exist anywhere in Western Europe or North America outside of the southern states. Western civilization is the bar of moral conduct we have to clear.

By the standards of 19th century western civilization, I maintain we have to make the statement that what was happening in the southern states in 1861 was unusually cruel, inhumane, and exceedingly immoral

 

[cancel2 2022]

.
It's funny how white Americans dwells so much on slavery in the US yet it's left to a black writer to put the whole issue into its proper perspective!

Thomas Sowell on slavery and this fact — there are more slaves today than were seized from Africa in four centuries

October 18, 2017
In his excellent book The Thomas Sowell Reader, which I recommend very highly, Thomas Sowell provides some insightful commentary about slavery in the chapter titled “Twisted History”:

Of all the tragic facts about the history of slavery, the most astonishing to an American today is that, although slavery was a worldwide institution for thousands of years, nowhere in the world was slavery a controversial issue prior to the 18th century. People of every race and color were enslaved – and enslaved others. White people were still being bought and sold as slaves in the Ottoman Empire, decades after American blacks were freed.

Everyone hated the idea of being a slave but few had any qualms about enslaving others. Slavery was just not an issue, not even among intellectuals, much less among political leaders, until the 18th century – and then it was an issue only in Western civilization. Among those who turned against slavery in the 18th century were George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry and other American leaders. You could research all of the 18th century Africa or Asia or the Middle East without finding any comparable rejection of slavery there. But who is singled out for scathing criticism today? American leaders of the 18th century.

Deciding that slavery was wrong was much easier than deciding what to do with millions of people from another continent, of another race, and without any historical preparation for living as free citizens in a society like that of the United States, where they were 20 percent of the population.

It is clear from the private correspondence of Washington, Jefferson, and many others that their moral rejection of slavery was unambiguous, but the practical question of what to do now had them baffled. That would remain so for more than half a century.

In 1862, a ship carrying slaves from Africa to Cuba, in violation of a ban on the international slave trade, was captured on the high seas by the U.S. Navy. The crew were imprisoned and the captain was hanged in the United States – despite the fact that slavery itself was still legal at the time in Africa, Cuba, and in the United States. What does this tell us? That enslaving people was considered an abomination. But what to do with millions of people who were already enslaved was not equally clear.

That question was finally answered by a war in which one life was lost [620,000 Civil War casualties] for every six people freed [3.9 million]. Maybe that was the only answer. But don’t pretend today that it was an easy answer – or that those who grappled with the dilemma in the 18th century were some special villains when most leaders and most people around the world saw nothing wrong with slavery.

Incidentally, the September 2003 issue of National Geographic had an article about the millions of people still enslaved around the world right now. But where is the moral indignation about that?

According to that National Geographic article titled “21st Century Slaves“:

There are an estimated 27 million men, women, and children in the world who are enslaved — physically confined or restrained and forced to work, or controlled through violence, or in some way treated as property.

Therefore, there are more slaves today than were seized from Africa in four centuries of the trans-Atlantic slave trade [11 million total, and about 450,000, or about 4% of the total, who were brought to the United States]. The modern commerce in humans rivals illegal drug trafficking in its global reach—and in the destruction of lives.

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/thom...an-were-seized-from-africa-in-four-centuries/

 

[Airstrip One]

OK, I’m the descendant if a GAR veteran. I’m justly proud that he served in an Indiana Regiment and did his part to end both rebellion and slavery. I’m equally embarrassed that his Grandson, my Great Grandfather was a member of the Indiana KKK during its second iteration during the 1920’s. I am no apologist for the Stars and Bars. It certainly has no place in my State if not our nation. I loath the historical revisionism of the lost cause mythogies as they, to this day, have a pervasive and evil influence in our Nation.

Most statues built to honor Confederate Historical figures were not built after the Civil War but at the turn of the 20th Century and in the 1950’s and 60’s as a means to intimidate blacks and to reinforce beliefs in Jim Crow Segregation and opposition to civil rights. If a community decides that these symbols no longer represent their values then down they should and will come.

The naming of US Military Forts after Officers that we’re not only enemies of the United States but many, like Braxton Bragg were also Jackasses and military incompetents is both absurd and ironic. Equally insulting is that not a single Military instillation is named after U. S. Grant who was by far the greatest General of the Civil war and a savior of our nation but was also the first truly modern military General. I would like nothing better than to see Fort Bragg’s name changed to Fort Grant.

Having said all this I’m critical of much that is being written at this time by polemicist who want to eliminate these historically absurd iconography (not that I don’t support that). They tend to be guilty of two historical crimes. The first is “The victor gets to write the history” and the second is viewing history anachronistically. For example this dismissive attitude of Southerners and how the could have went to war over a cause as terrible as slavery.

The Civil War was in fact, as many Southerners claim, the second American Revolution or more correctly counter revolution. The aristocratic agrarian South with it’s feudal social system was far more like the rest of the world at that time where slave/serf caste systems predominated and the small geographic regions of Northern Europe and the Northern US with their industrial revolution dependent on highly skilled free labor were in fact revolutionary. In that respect the Confederates weren’t exactly wrong in considering themselves the true inheritors of the American Revolution by fighting a counter revolution against the United States Industrial Revolution and to protect slavery and a white supremacist aristocracy. This is important history for us all to understand as it gives us an understanding of why so many good people could support such a vile and evil system as chattel slavery as that is how most of the worlds societies were at that time.

So even though we have grown as a nation and found a far superior and egalitarian way to structure our society that is infinitely superior these facts of history should not be forgotten or dismissed as old and obsolete history but should be remembered and used to reconcile this nation from its divided past.

With regard to the CSA being an inheritor of the Revolution, here is an article defending the NASCAR decision which rebuts that argument.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020...tent=featured-content-trending&utm_term=first

 

[BattleofHodow]

Well I guess I’m living proof that you’re an ignorant bigot. I’ve been married to an amazing woman of another race for 15 years and they’ve been the best years of my life. I get along with her family extremely well and they have never been anything but caring, loving and respectful of me and my nieces have me wrapped around their little fingers. Not to mention my family absolutely adores my wife.

You sir strike me as a tragic and pathetic individual who lacks the imagination to see the world outside your pathetic little self defined envelope.

Where does Multiculturalism have a happy ending?

Certainly never has, and certainly never will.

Multiculturalism causes a ton of problems, tensions, chaos, massacres, genocides, wars, etc. etc.

Like with the Rwanda genocide, like with the Yugoslavia wars (Balkanization), like with India & Pakistan, like with Israel & Palesine, like with the Darfur genocide, like with the Rohingya genocide, like with Chinese vs Minorities, like with the USA vs minorities, like with Turks vs Armenians, or German vs Polish wars, Shiites vs Sunni wars, like Irish Catholics vs Ulster Irish Protestants, like the Congo Civil Wars, like Christians vs Jews, etc. etc.

Multiculturalism is a very ugly thing, only complete morons think it's the best thing ever.

 

[BattleofHodow]

I am not sure I buy the argument that the Confereracy was representative of world norms, while the Union was revolutionary and unique.

Since the United States presents itself as the modern progeny of western civilization, it is the western world we compare our standard of conduct to. I don't think our nation has any business pointing to Africa, China, Brazil, or the steppes of Eurasia to justify our conduct.

Chattel slavery did not exist anywhere in Western Europe or North America outside of the southern states. Western civilization is the bar of moral conduct we have to clear.

By the standards of 19th century western civilization, I maintain we have to make the statement that what was happening in the southern states in 1861 was unusually cruel, inhumane, and exceedingly immoral

Yeah, well you left out that Northern & Western European bankers & mills profited off of those slaves too.

 

[dukkha]

Where does Multiculturalism have a happy ending?

Certainly never has, and certainly never will.

Multiculturalism causes a ton of problems, tensions, chaos, massacres, genocides, wars, etc. etc.

Like with the Rwanda genocide, like with the Yugoslavia wars (Balkanization), like with India & Pakistan, like with Israel & Palesine, like with the Darfur genocide, like with the Rohingya genocide, like with Chinese vs Minorities, like with the USA vs minorities, like with Turks vs Armenians, or German vs Polish wars, Shiites vs Sunni wars, like Irish Catholics vs Ulster Irish Protestants, like the Congo Civil Wars, like Christians vs Jews, etc. etc.

Multiculturalism is a very ugly thing, only complete morons think it's the best thing ever.

yes multiculturalism by it's nature is fractious - assimilation with recognition of ethnicity is what unites people -
while respecting different cultures.
Think of soup floating various flavors and textures to combine a rich broth -not a salad bowl aimlessly tossed together

 

[BRUTALITOPS]

The Civil War was in fact, as many Southerners claim, the second American Revolution or more correctly counter revolution. The aristocratic agrarian South with it’s feudal social system was far more like the rest of the world at that time where slave/serf caste systems predominated and the small geographic regions of Northern Europe and the Northern US with their industrial revolution dependent on highly skilled free labor were in fact revolutionary. In that respect the Confederates weren’t exactly wrong in considering themselves the true inheritors of the American Revolution by fighting a counter revolution against the United States Industrial Revolution and to protect slavery and a white supremacist aristocracy. This is important history for us all to understand as it gives us an understanding of why so many good people could support such a vile and evil system as chattel slavery as that is how most of the worlds societies were at that time.

So even though we have grown as a nation and found a far superior and egalitarian way to structure our society that is infinitely superior these facts of history should not be forgotten or dismissed as old and obsolete history but should be remembered and used to reconcile this nation from its divided past.

 

[BattleofHodow]

Well I guess I’m living proof that you’re an ignorant bigot. I’ve been married to an amazing woman of another race for 15 years and they’ve been the best years of my life. I get along with her family extremely well and they have never been anything but caring, loving and respectful of me and my nieces have me wrapped around their little fingers. Not to mention my family absolutely adores my wife.

You sir strike me as a tragic and pathetic individual who lacks the imagination to see the world outside your pathetic little self defined envelope.

Most anti-bigotry Whites are the truly ignorant ones.

Mostly suburban snot nosed kids, who've had almost no contact with Blacks.

My co worker was an anti-bigot type like you, and that didn't stop him from getting run down by Blacks in the Peekskill area, chasing him calling him a White piece of chit.

I've seen bigotry from Whites growing up & also equally deplorable behavior from Blacks too.

All my life I've been harassed by Blacks, last time was a few months ago in the town of Poughkeepsie, when a Black man stared me down.

A lot of them are really jerks.... My Polish American uncle was jumped & robbed by Blacks in Portchester, NY, and my Polish American Grandmother was afraid to sleep at night because Blacks shot off guns at night

My Irish side of the family in Yonkers, didn't fare any better.... Their once peaceful White neighborhood turned Black, and they got robbed numerous times, and even held up at knife point by a Black man.

Not to excuse, the Italian kids I grew up with who threw rocks at Blacks, or beat them up for being Black.

But, it just shows how people just don't like each other, very much in close quarters & different factions.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

I bet if you were Black American,you would find,Confederate heroes offensive

Funny I know quite a few black people and most of them think this is just whitey trying to show blacks how enlightened they are.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

The books by Freeman was written in the 1930’s. Jubal Early is the only writer I mentioned that fought in the Civil War and he was fired by Lee for incompetence. Most of the books that created the lost cause mythologies were written between 1880 and 1900 decades after the Civil War as were all the ones I cited except for Freeman’s which were published in the 1930’s.

All one needs to do to debunk the lost cause mythologies is to read the primary source documents written by Confederate leaders before and during the Civil War. So to call my comments lies is saying that the Confederate leaders of the Civil War were liars.

The book was published in 1934 and 1935. Clearly it was never used as a history text book. Oh you forgot to mention Freeman also wrote George Washington's biography in 1948.

No, no, no You claimed

Originally Posted by Mott the Hoople
How is trying to teach the true history of the Civil War, instead of neoconfederate revisionist mythology, removing Civil War history from our books and schools? For generations students were taught lies and fiction about the Civil War by Confederate apologist. What is wrong with fixing that with fact based history?

the books like you cited were being used to teach revisionist Civil War history. That is a lie and you know it is I asked you to link history text books and all you can come up with is a list of old books about the war. That Sport is a bald faced lie.

 

[Darth Omar]

yes multiculturalism by it's nature is fractious - assimilation with recognition of ethnicity is what unites people -
while respecting different cultures.
Think of soup floating various flavors and textures to combine a rich broth -not a salad bowl aimlessly tossed together

What multiculturalism enthusiasts fail to grasp is that no matter how much you mish-mash the culture you’re going to end up with a dominant culture at some point.

A culture that is dominated by people ‘of color’ is meaningless. What will inevitably happen is one demographic will rise to the top over time. In Europe that could mean a culture dominated by Muslims—unless Europe comes to their senses on immigration.

Here, Hispanics could become the dominant culture over time. They are already there is some regions. Muslims in particular, understand the power of demographics and how it relates to birth rate.

Unless you can get the disparate factions to *assimilate* into the culture you’re going to end up with an effectively new country—in time. Frankly, I’m glad we’re assimilating Hispanics. They at least share the vast majority of our values. Blacks already do but their birth rates aren’t much different than whites.

 

[Matt Dillon]

Apollyon is undefeated
Your post is a typical,cowards response!
"I got tough friends"lol
The name Mason makes you wet your panties

The name Margot pisses me off!
How's Margot2 doing?

 

[canceled.2021.1]

If only the Republican apparatus got out front on things like this there would not be a groundswell of deplorable opposition.
They know it is wrong, they just don't want to be told what to do. That's the way this goes across the issue board.
Climate change, civil rights, money in politics, covid response, pick any topic, the resistance to it is usually not substantive,
it about the erroneous perception fomented by their leaders that elites, experts and liberals rubbing their nose in their ignorance and mistakes.

Maybe just maybe you might want to stop telling people what the fuck to do all the time? Ever thought of that?

Or are you so superior in your beliefs that you feel you can tell everyone what to do and when to do it.

If you want to be pissed, be pissed at your own party. EVERYTHING related to slavery and I mean EVERYTHING can be laid at the democrat party's feet. It was the democrats who fought for it. It was the democrats who formed the KKK. It was the democrats who erected these statues (Nancy Pelosi's dad, FDR etc celebrated them). It was democrats who opposed Civil Rights. It was democrats who passed Jim Crow laws.

And don't give me the "the party's switched" bullshit. You think that absolves your party of what they did and when they did it? Fuck you.

Disband your party then come lecture me. Otherwise go fuck yourself. You are leftists have no moral authority when it comes to race. Blacks live in the most horrid conditions at the hands of enclaves run by DEMOCRATS. It wasn't republicans that put policies in place leading to 72% illegitimacy rate in the black community.

What you should be chanting is Black Dads Matter. The breakdown of society is due to a breakdown of the nuclear family at the hands of democrat party policy and it was all purposeful meant to destroy this country.

 

[canceled.2021.1]

OK, I’m the descendant if a GAR veteran. I’m justly proud that he served in an Indiana Regiment and did his part to end both rebellion and slavery. I’m equally embarrassed that his Grandson, my Great Grandfather was a member of the Indiana KKK during its second iteration during the 1920’s. I am no apologist for the Stars and Bars. It certainly has no place in my State if not our nation. I loath the historical revisionism of the lost cause mythogies as they, to this day, have a pervasive and evil influence in our Nation.

Most statues built to honor Confederate Historical figures were not built after the Civil War but at the turn of the 20th Century and in the 1950’s and 60’s as a means to intimidate blacks and to reinforce beliefs in Jim Crow Segregation and opposition to civil rights. If a community decides that these symbols no longer represent their values then down they should and will come.

The naming of US Military Forts after Officers that we’re not only enemies of the United States but many, like Braxton Bragg were also Jackasses and military incompetents is both absurd and ironic. Equally insulting is that not a single Military instillation is named after U. S. Grant who was by far the greatest General of the Civil war and a savior of our nation but was also the first truly modern military General. I would like nothing better than to see Fort Bragg’s name changed to Fort Grant.

Having said all this I’m critical of much that is being written at this time by polemicist who want to eliminate these historically absurd iconography (not that I don’t support that). They tend to be guilty of two historical crimes. The first is “The victor gets to write the history” and the second is viewing history anachronistically. For example this dismissive attitude of Southerners and how the could have went to war over a cause as terrible as slavery.

The Civil War was in fact, as many Southerners claim, the second American Revolution or more correctly counter revolution. The aristocratic agrarian South with it’s feudal social system was far more like the rest of the world at that time where slave/serf caste systems predominated and the small geographic regions of Northern Europe and the Northern US with their industrial revolution dependent on highly skilled free labor were in fact revolutionary. In that respect the Confederates weren’t exactly wrong in considering themselves the true inheritors of the American Revolution by fighting a counter revolution against the United States Industrial Revolution and to protect slavery and a white supremacist aristocracy. This is important history for us all to understand as it gives us an understanding of why so many good people could support such a vile and evil system as chattel slavery as that is how most of the worlds societies were at that time.

So even though we have grown as a nation and found a far superior and egalitarian way to structure our society that is infinitely superior these facts of history should not be forgotten or dismissed as old and obsolete history but should be remembered and used to reconcile this nation from its divided past.

Fuck you you preachy prick. I hope you are standing right below one when it comes down and it lands right on you

 

[Mason Melchizedek]

The name Margot pisses me off!
How's Margot2 doing?

Why did the name Margot piss you off?