Obama Budget Speech Lays an Egg!

NigelTufnel said:
The total cost of TARP (enacted under Bush mind you) was $50 billion. You're at $853 billion. Just $1.147 Trillion more to go!
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Only if, which didn't happen, the money returned wasn't spent itself and was returned to general funds with a solid record of where it went. You have to ignore facts in order to build a wall around your view of a Perfect Stimulus that Really Worked. We've put ourselves $4Trillion into debt in the name of the economy and have only this meager result.

It hasn't worked.
 
Damocles said:
Only if, which didn't happen, the money returned wasn't spent itself and was returned to general funds with a solid record of where it went. You have to ignore facts in order to build a wall around your view of a Perfect Stimulus that Really Worked. We've put ourselves $4Trillion into debt in the name of the economy and have only this meager result.

It hasn't worked.
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What "facts" am I ignoring? You said "Trillions" and you've talked about $900 billion, including tax cuts in the stimulus bill. You then pretend that everyone is lying about TARP money being repaid, and even if it wasn't, you'd still be about $600 billion short of "Trillions."

We're not even getting into whether "it failed" or not because you cannot tell me what "it" is.
 
NigelTufnel said:
What "facts" am I ignoring? You said "Trillions" and you've talked about $900 billion, including tax cuts in the stimulus bill. You then pretend that everyone is lying about TARP money being repaid, and even if it wasn't, you'd still be about $600 billion short of "Trillions."

We're not even getting into whether "it failed" or not because you cannot tell me what "it" is.
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:rolleyes:

I guess I could continue this worthless conversation, but as I stated earlier it is difficult to hold a conversation with people who ignore what is said to just repeat the same nonsense. I'm good with that.

Do you contend that the bulk of $4 Trillion in overspending was not spent towards an attempt to get the economy moving, using "It's Bush's Fault" as an excuse? That the current budget proposed overspends by more than a Trillion because of the "economy" which was purchased by Obama's Stimulus that is still failing?

The economy is "not good" even though we've spent 1/3 of the Debt we previously had towards it. And it will continue to be "not good" because Obama's stimulus is fail.
 
Damocles said:
Rubbish, I list facts and your only answer is "you are emotional"...

I'm not, those are all facts.

It isn't "good" even though we've thrown the treasure of our children at it. That is what has failed.
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You're shifting all over the place; you're really a mess in this conversation. Everytihng I listed about the economy is a "fact". You responded with emotionalism, because you couldn't address those facts; nor could you defend your contention that things are "the same" as they were in 2008.

I'm happy to continue this conversation. I know you won't budge, but it's definitely interesting watching the new ways you find to spin.
 
Damocles said:
:rolleyes:

I guess I could continue this worthless conversation, but as I stated earlier it is difficult to hold a conversation with people who ignore what is said to just repeat the same nonsense. I'm good with that.

Do you contend that the bulk of $4 Trillion in overspending was not spent towards an attempt to get the economy moving, using "It's Bush's Fault" as an excuse. That the current budget proposed overspends by more than a Trillion because of the "economy" which was purchased by Obama's Stimulus that is still failing?

The economy is "not good" even though we've spent 1/3 of the Debt we previously had towards it. And it will continue to be "not good" because Obama's stimulus is fail.
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Yeah, Damo. I'm really sorry for asking you to substantiate your horse shit numbers. I apologize for pointing out that, even in the realm of hyperbole, your "Trillions" is total nonsense. You overstated the cost of the stimulus and related spending by more that $1,000,000,000,000. It isn't just wrong, it's grossly wrong. It's not-in-the-same-galaxy wrong. It is one of the most ridiculous things you've written (and you think Obama is using the SSN of a dead guy from CT and that Bill Ayers ghost-wrote his book!).
 
yeah catch him on a technicality of pulling a number out his ass, nobody know the exact stimulus tab or when of if it's all going to get spent.
Match Obama and companies own forcast of growth and unemployment expected nearly promised mind you through the fear mongering of if we didn't do it.
Here's a hint, they forecasted under 8% unemployment and much better growth.
Pick the fly shit out of the pepper of my inexact numbers, dodge the main point.
 
Onceler said:
You're shifting all over the place; you're really a mess in this conversation. Everytihng I listed about the economy is a "fact". You responded with emotionalism, because you couldn't address those facts; nor could you defend your contention that things are "the same" as they were in 2008.

I'm happy to continue this conversation. I know you won't budge, but it's definitely interesting watching the new ways you find to spin.
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Repeating that a list of facts about the economy is "emotional" still doesn't make it emotional.

I reminded you that stimulus spending didn't even really begin until after we hit bottom. Then informed you exactly what I was speaking about when I said trillions....

It's all good. I know you will continue to pretend that no other overspendinghas anything to do with stimulus ...
 
Topspin said:
yeah catch him on a technicality of pulling a number out his ass, nobody know the exact stimulus tab or when of if it's all going to get spent.
Match Obama and companies own forcast of growth and unemployment expected nearly promised mind you through the fear mongering of if we didn't do it.
Here's a hint, they forecasted under 8% unemployment and much better growth.
Pick the fly shit out of the pepper of my inexact numbers, dodge the main point.
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I don't think overstating stimulus spending by more than $1 Trillion is a technicality. He may as well have said that the unemployment rate is currently 20%. The degree of error is the same.
 
Damocles said:
Repeating that a list of facts about the economy is "emotional" still doesn't make it emotional.

I reminded you that stimulus spending didn't even really begin until after we hit bottom. Then informed you exactly what I was speaking about when I said trillions....

It's all good. I know you will continue to pretend that no other overspendinghas anything to do with stimulus ...
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It was a clear appeal to emotionalism. It's amazing to see you deny that.

Like I said, you got stuck on your narrative that I was claiming the economy is "good" or "great," when in fact, my argument is that it's "better" and "improving." And it is most certainly - like, undeniably - not "the same" as it was in 2008. How can you expect to have any credibility at all after making a statement like that?

As for your moving goalposts, I still don't see the "trillions" you keep talking about, with only "thousands" in return.
 
the defecit is over a trillion this year, weather you limosine liberals want to tag it as stimulus or not. I wouldn't call the stimulus a total failure but calling it even a moderate success is a stretch based on Obama's own forecast.
Please spare me the 1929 fear mongering, only non economics educated people buy that turdfest.
 
Oh, and I blame both parties equally as it was more the NY billionaires club with dems/repubs around the table deciding how to bilk the American people.
 
NigelTufnel said:
I don't think overstating stimulus spending by more than $1 Trillion is a technicality. He may as well have said that the unemployment rate is currently 20%. The degree of error is the same.
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Again with the nonsense that the only spending towards the economy we have done was in that one bill. It is utter nonsense, babble really. It has no bearing on the reality of $4 Trillion added to our debt in 2 years. Man, I YEARN for the time that I thought Bush was insane for overspending by $400 Billion (which he counted as only 200 Billion because the war was "off the books"...)

It's like arguing with a full on Bush Loving Republican about whether or not the wars should "count" when figuring the deficit.

The reality is that the economic "plans" of this Administration have placed overwhelming debt on future generations for what you say is a "success" and I say is failure. Again, if this is what you count as a resounding "success" then I truly fear what you believe is a failure.
 
Onceler said:
It was a clear appeal to emotionalism. It's amazing to see you deny that.

Like I said, you got stuck on your narrative that I was claiming the economy is "good" or "great," when in fact, my argument is that it's "better" and "improving." And it is most certainly - like, undeniably - not "the same" as it was in 2008. How can you expect to have any credibility at all after making a statement like that?

As for your moving goalposts, I still don't see the "trillions" you keep talking about, with only "thousands" in return.
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That's because you can't see past your own insistence that the only money we've supposedly spent on stimulating this economy is in only one bill. It is utter fantasy.

My posts have remained the same. We have spent TRILLIONS, and we have gotten almost nothing for allowing our "leadership" to saddle us with this debt. That is fail, it is huge fail.
 
Damocles said:
That's because you can't see past your own insistence that the only money we've supposedly spent on stimulating this economy is in only one bill. It is utter fantasy.

My posts have remained the same. We have spent TRILLIONS, and we have gotten almost nothing for allowing our "leadership" to saddle us with this debt. That is fail, it is huge fail.
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Do you know how much money the U.S. economy lost between the start of the crash, and the passage of the stimulus?
 
Damocles said:
Again with the nonsense that the only spending towards the economy we have done was in that one bill. It is utter nonsense, babble really. It has no bearing on the reality of $4 Trillion added to our debt in 2 years. Man, I YEARN for the time that I thought Bush was insane for overspending by $400 Billion (which he counted as only 200 Billion because the war was "off the books"...)
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All I am asking you is to show me what spending you are talking about. You want to pretend that all government spending is "stimulus" spending because it suits your agenda. But it just isn't true. So instead of cutting the bullshit and specifying exactly what you are talking about when you referred to the "Trillions," you play these stupid games.

You also focus only on the spending side of the ledger while ignoring the revenue side of the ledger when you focus on the $4 trillion. That isn't all increased spending. The bulk of it is declining revenues brought about by the tax cuts that supported and continue to support.

Damocles said:
It's like arguing with a full on Bush Loving Republican about whether or not the wars should "count" when figuring the deficit.
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It's like arguing with yourself?


Damocles said:
The reality is that the economic "plans" of this Administration have placed overwhelming debt on future generations for what you say is a "success" and I say is failure. Again, if this is what you count as a resounding "success" then I truly fear what you believe is a failure.
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If you would take your head out of your ass you'd realize that I never trumpeted the Obama's economic policies as a success. In fact, I think they fucked up lots of things. I'm just calling out your bullshit. You don't have to misrepresent the figures to be critical of Obama and his economic policies, but for some reason you choose to.
 
Topspin said:
do you know that it would not have come back without the stimulus?
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My only point is that, had the economy continued to tank, it would have cost MUCH more than the stimulus. Damo keeps talking about what we're saddling future generations with; in those terms, spending is not really any different from revenue loss.

Damo's other point is that things started turning before stimulus money even hit the streets. My thing w/ the stimulus is that it doesn't even matter where they spent it for the most part. Just the passage of that bill alone was important for confidence. We were at a point where things were in a perpetual cycle of constriction - people getting laid off, spending less, corps making less, and laying more people off. Capital expenditures were almost non-existent. Someone had to start spending again, period.

I know, I know - oil is fine, and you never saw any problems. It's good to step out of your own job once in awhile and take a look at the rest of the country, though...
 
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