Obama Apology Tour

Damocles said:
Or he chose to call God by a different name, we'll never know, apparently not even his granddaughter did, yet you tell me with certainty that he was what you want him to be. It's inane. Plenty of the founders were openly Christian, you should take them as examples of what you want to portray rather than the one dude that nobody knows.
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Actually, in spite of all your hopes and prayers to the contrary, his granddaughter did know, according to her own words as posted previously.
 
Mottleydude said:
Please, define those underpinings and point out where they exist in the US Constitution? I've all ready demonstrated to you that classical liberalism was antithetical to traditional christian beliefs of that era and that classical liberalism was militantly opposed by Christian Churches both Catholic and Protestant. So please, as they say in Missouri, show me those underpinnings.
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You have shown me nothing of the sort. Classical Liberalism was born from the Reformations and birthed from the idea of Christain Liberty! It was Christians who first opened up institutions of learning! The Enlightenment Age would NEVER have happened apart from it! It is you who needs to understand the historical record not I. The underpinings of liberty was born in the breast of our founders due to their belief in the philisophical ideas that came from their devout knowledge of God. Did many of them reject Christ? Yes, but more of them did not!
 
Southern Man said:
Actually, in spite of all your hopes and prayers to the contrary, his granddaughter did know, according to her own words as posted previously.
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Her own words expressed uncertainty, demonstrably so, and as demonstrated earlier.

"He must have been"...

That is not a sentence of certainty and was the conclusion of the letter. Even his granddaughter didn't know yet you have the magical cure for that, you just pretend it is what you want it to be.
 
Damocles said:
Her own words expressed uncertainty, demonstrably so.
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In addition to her uncertainty there are written statements from two of his ministers that he never partook of communion.

Those are pretty serious pieces of evidence.
 
Damocles said:
Her own words expressed uncertainty, demonstrably so, and as demonstrated earlier.

"He must have been"...

That is not a sentence of certainty and was the conclusion of the letter. Even his granddaughter didn't know yet you have the magical cure for that, you just pretend it is what you want it to be.
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Again you've created a caricature of her observations, as if to wish with all your might that she never said this: "I should have thought it the greatest heresy to doubt his firm belief in Christianity. His life, his writings, prove that he was a Christian."
 
Southern Man said:
I wasn't aware that was a requirement of Christianity. *shrug*
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Perhaps not, but steadfastly avoiding it for his entire adult life is certainly not a resounding show of his christianity.

"His life, his writings, prove that he was a Christian." What writings was she talking about? What I have seen could just as easily be deist and most of his writings have no reference to religion at all.
 
Have you people ever thought of settling this incredibly important argument, once and for all, by means of a seance?
 
charver said:
Have you people ever thought of settling this incredibly important argument, once and for all, by means of a seance?
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Tried that. He avoided the subject. All George wanted to talk about was Martha's legs. Apparently she had a great pair of legs.
 
WinterBorn said:
Perhaps not, but steadfastly avoiding it for his entire adult life is certainly not a resounding show of his christianity.

"His life, his writings, prove that he was a Christian." What writings was she talking about? What I have seen could just as easily be deist and most of his writings have no reference to religion at all.
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1. Not partaking in weekly communion was common in the 18th century. Many reformists tied it in with reconciliation, and thus not necessary unless you were a weekly sinner.
2. She would have then wrote:
"His life, his writings, prove that he was a Deist." *shug*
3. Most of my writings have no reference to religion yet I'm a Christian. *shrug*
 
WinterBorn said:
Tried that. He avoided the subject. All George wanted to talk about was Martha's legs. Apparently she had a great pair of legs.
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I would have thought he would have, at least, made some comment regarding all those Americans who got to lick his wife's stamp.
 
Southern Man said:
Again you've created a caricature of her observations, as if to wish with all your might that she never said this: "I should have thought it the greatest heresy to doubt his firm belief in Christianity. His life, his writings, prove that he was a Christian."
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Again, "I should have thought" and "Must have been" are not statements of certainty, I didn't make a caricature I just don't make a pretense as you have so clearly done.

This was just more evidence of how people were unsure about his religious beliefs, another piece of evidence that shows we simply don't know. One thing I know is two of his pastors wrote about how he refused to take communion, that's pretty telling far more than somebody guessing at what he did when he was alone that he wouldn't talk about.
 
WinterBorn said:
In addition to her uncertainty there are written statements from two of his ministers that he never partook of communion.

Those are pretty serious pieces of evidence.
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His home church pastor in Mt Vernon gave him communion whenever he attended there and it was served. The large congegrations where he was in the spotlight he avoided it.
 
Southern Man said:
1. Not partaking in weekly communion was common in the 18th century. Many reformists tied it in with reconciliation, and thus not necessary unless you were a weekly sinner.
2. She would have then wrote:
"His life, his writings, prove that he was a Deist." *shug*
3. Most of my writings have no reference to religion yet I'm a Christian. *shrug*
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If it was so common to avoid communion why did his minister say ""That Washington was a professing Christian, is evident from his regular attendance in our church; but, Sir, I cannot consider any man as a real Christian who uniformly disregards an ordinance so solemnly enjoined by the divine Author of our holy religion, and considered as a channel of divine grace.""

And why would his minister put a reprimmand in his sermon? "I considered it my duty, in a sermon on public worship, to state the unhappy tendency of example, particularly of those in elevated stations, who uniformly turned their backs on the Lord's Supper. I acknowledge the remark was intended for the President; and as such he received it."

Even Washington knew that it was a rebuke: "A few days after, in conversation, I believe, with a Senator of the United States, he told me he had dined the day before with the President, who, in the course of conversation at the table, said that, on the previous Sunday, he had received a very just rebuke from the pulpit for always leaving the church before the administration of the sacrament;"



I think your writings could be used to point to quite the opposite of your claims of faith. But the question is about George Washington. And the only reason I mention his writings is that it was said that his writings show him to be a christian. If that is the claim then there should be some volume of writings to show such.

And as someone else pointed out the fact that there are questions about GW speaks to the idea that he would not have created a government based on a faith he did not profess to in public or push to be in the forefront of his life.

And Jefferson was most assuredly a deist and he wrote most of the documents that were used to form our nation.
 
Southern Man said:
You're just pissed because I nailed you on the low income state home quality thing last week. Let it go man.
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What? I recieved about half a dozen rep nods for winning that debate. You've just plain factually lost this debate to Damo who, to everyone but you and ID has crushed you with an overwhelming list of evidence. You're just trying to get last word. From a formal debate stand point, getting last word in doesnt' make you the winner.
 
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Ice Dancer said:
His home church pastor in Mt Vernon gave him communion whenever he attended there and it was served. The large congegrations where he was in the spotlight he avoided it.
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All I found were the writings of two ministers who said he did not partake of communion.
 
Damocles said:
Again, "I should have thought" and "Must have been" are not statements of certainty, I didn't make a caricature I just don't make a pretense as you have so clearly done.

This was just more evidence of how people were unsure about his religious beliefs, another piece of evidence that shows we simply don't know. One thing I know is two of his pastors wrote about how he refused to take communion, that's pretty telling far more than somebody guessing at what he did when he was alone that he wouldn't talk about.
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You have clearly made a caricature by omitting this: "His life, his writings, prove that he was a Christian."
 
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