Obama Apology Tour

WinterBorn said:
He didn't take communion. He walked out after the sermon and before the communion. The minister of the church testified to that.
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WinterBorn said:
Additional information concerning Washington's "prayer".

"George Washington's Prayer For The United States"

From a simple dispatch of official business was constructed a fabulous prayer that is used to this day as "evidence" of George Washington's Christian piety.

The interpolated words that are not from the Washington letter are in underlined bold red type.

The Alleged Prayer:
Almighty God, we make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt keep these United States in Thy holy protection, that Thou wilt incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government; to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, and for their fellow citizens of the United States at large. And finally that Thou wilt most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility and pacific temper of mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of Whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation. Grant our supplication, we beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
-- Engraved on a bronze tablet in St Paul's Chapel, Broadway and Vesey Streets, New York City, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 19-20

The final line is the language with which all prayers in the Episcopal Prayer Book end.

The words of the Washington letter that were removed from the Washington letter and interpolated by the prayer-maker are in underlined bold black type.

Actual Statement:
I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you, and the state over which you preside, in his holy protection; that he would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow-citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the field; and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility and pacific temper of mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose examples in these things, we can never hope to be a happy nation.
I have the honor to be, with much esteem and respect, sir, your Excellency's most obedient and most humble servant. -- G Washington.
-- George Washington, letter sent to the governors in 1783, urging them to quell anarchy and riots by alleviating distress and discontent, quoted from Ford's Writings of Washington, vol. x, p. 265, also quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 19-20

The original letter is not in Washington's handwriting, but was penned by one of his secretaries, most of whom were allowed to make their own embellishments.

The only other instance in the entire known body of Washington's writings where he would have mentioned Jesus Christ is a childhood poem. But unfortunately for those who would inflict post mortem Christian piety upon George Washington, this poem is the only known instance of any Christian sentiments penned with George Washington's own hand.







This and the previous post were taken from: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/washington.htm
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Thought I'd give you a shot at reading something, SM.
 
A lot of the leading people of the Enlightenment saw religion in very non-emotional and in philosophical ways. The Founders spoke often of the benefits of religion to character and virtue, believing that a strong nation required a religious character at all times.

I think people just can't relate to this in an age where Catholicism and Evangelicalism are the standard-barers of American Christianity. Washington did come believe that slavery was immoral through the preaching of his local minister, and he probably felt it was an example of the "building character" aspect of religion.
 
maineman said:
believing in God and believing in Jesus Christ as one's risen savior are two entirely different things. Devout Jews could easily pledge allegiance to their God and their country. I would have thought you would have known that.
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Your argument is that Washington was a Jew? :)
 
Damocles said:
LOL. Again. For those who think it is "proof" that he was a Christian....

Even his granddaughter could not say with any certainty that he was Christian. If this is your "evidence" then you have none.
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You failed to address the issue raised in post 177.
 
Southern Man said:
You failed to address the issue raised in post 177.
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He never took communion, he refused to answer direct questions concerning his religious beliefs, and the motto you posted may have been for public consumption or may have been inaccurately written.
 
Southern Man said:
You failed to address the issue raised in post 177.
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Damocles said:
Thought I'd give you a shot at reading something, SM.
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But I did. The reality is I say that, but am not a Christian.

So far nothing you have given is proof, yet stronger evidence rests in the posts I quoted from Winterborn in the other direction.

I don't know why it is so important to you that he be what you want him to be, but it is sad when you list speculation and "must have" from a close relative and then say that saying, "for God and Country" means he is Christian.
 
Damocles said:
But I did. The reality is I say that, but am not a Christian.

So far nothing you have given is proof, yet stronger evidence rests in the posts I quoted from Winterborn in the other direction.

I don't know why it is so important to you that he be what you want him to be, but it is sad when you list speculation and "must have" from a close relative and then say that saying, "for God and Country" means he is Christian.
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It seems just as equally important that you have him be what you want him to be. In all the histories of Washington all anyone can say for certain is that there exists some abiguity as to his belief...no certainty.

I read a number of accts that say when it came to his private devotions he wished them to remain just that...private. He was a very public figure and he wished his faith to be his business. Whenever he was away from Mt Verrnon he did not take communion "where all eyes were on him." But his pastor at his home church in Mt Vernon stated that he was a regular communicant there. His step duaghter also testified to his private devotions and his taking the Lords supper. So there you have it. In his public appearances in large congregations he was low key, in his more private home church he was less so.

This speaks to the idea of a reverent man with regards to his faith and not a showman. The atmosphere and pressures to take a stand by those who watched is likely what caused him to be so clandenstine. They are certainly not the proofs of an irreligious man nor are they proofs that he did not believe in Christ. I do not think him a modern politico who simply acted a part. He ws an honorable statesman who would not have worn a mask of faith. Or in more blunt terms act the liar.
 
Ice Dancer said:
It seems just as equally important that you have him be what you want him to be. In all the histories of Washington all anyone can say for certain is that there exists some abiguity as to his belief...no certainty.

I read a number of accts that say when it came to his private devotions he wished them to remain just that...private. He was a very public figure and he wished his faith to be his business. Whenever he was away from Mt Verrnon he did not take communion "where all eyes were on him." But his pastor at his home church in Mt Vernon stated that he was a regular communicant there. His step duaghter also testified to his private devotions and his taking the Lords supper. So there you have it. In his public appearances in large congregations he was low key, in his more private home church he was less so.

This speaks to the idea of a reverent man with regards to his faith and not a showman. The atmosphere and pressures to take a stand by those who watched is likely what caused him to be so clandenstine. They are certainly not the proofs of an irreligious man nor are they proofs that he did not believe in Christ. I do not think him a modern politico who simply acted a part. He ws an honorable statesman who would not have worn a mask of faith. Or in more blunt terms act the liar.
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Yes, and I am stating that the ambiguity is there, while the other person is stating that there is a certainty because even his granddaughter said he "must be" Christian...

Seriously. It's sad to watch that.

I've stated numerous times it really is unimportant to me. Enough of the founders were Deists and stated so that I have no need to show that GW was one to show that many of them simply were not Christians.

Somebody who was as strong of a Christian as SM wants to believe so badly would not have left without taking communion each and every week, noted by the minister of that church.
 
Ice Dancer said:
Site us specific evidence that it was Kant that influened them from the Constitution. See how stupid that demand is? I think before you and others toss around the term stupid you ought to take a deep breath and hold it.
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Kant was a highly regarded and popularly published philosopher of that era. Kant was a classical liberal. Kant advocated individual rights and was a proponent of limited government. Kant was a passionate individualist who gave a prominent place in his ethics to a man's obligations to himself, who held that one ought always to view other persons as ends in themselves, who welcomed the American revolution, and who (in Part I of his "Metaphysics of Morals") developed a rigorous defense of private property.

Your turn. Put up or shut up.
 
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Ice Dancer said:
It was a widely held view that America was a "christian nation". This does not denote that we were a theocracy, only that the underpinings of our founding documents were greatly influenced by that religion. There is ample evidence that this is so.

The term "Providence" as a name for God is a Christian term, not Deist's term. The Deist saw God as an uninvolved benevolent Creator. The very meaning of Providence is of a God very much involved with his creation.
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Please, define those underpinings and point out where they exist in the US Constitution? I've all ready demonstrated to you that classical liberalism was antithetical to traditional christian beliefs of that era and that classical liberalism was militantly opposed by Christian Churches both Catholic and Protestant. So please, as they say in Missouri, show me those underpinnings.
 
Damocles said:
But I did. The reality is I say that, but am not a Christian.

So far nothing you have given is proof, yet stronger evidence rests in the posts I quoted from Winterborn in the other direction.

I don't know why it is so important to you that he be what you want him to be, but it is sad when you list speculation and "must have" from a close relative and then say that saying, "for God and Country" means he is Christian.
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Forget it guys, You've completely crushed SM in this debate. He's just taking a page from Dixie's book of magic tricks and is playing Wack-A-Mole and Raise the Bar with ya'll.
 
maineman said:
of course not... my argument is that "God" does not necessarily imply the triune God of Christianity.
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Your argument would also have to be that Washington was disingenuous, since he worshiped at a Christian church. Presumably that church would require the worshipers to be Christians, unless of course it was a crappy church like yours, that condones homosexuality and abortion, and so why not accept non-Christians as well. *shrug*
 
Southern Man said:
Your argument would also have to be that Washington was disingenuous, since he worshiped at a Christian church. Presumably that church would require the worshipers to be Christians, unless of course it was a crappy church like yours, that condones homosexuality and abortion, and so why not accept non-Christians as well. *shrug*
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If he did indeed worship there he had a funny way of showing it when he left every service before communion and returned to pick up his wife who partook in the communion. He attended the church, which I have done many times as a non-Christian with my mother. I have never been refused attendance at a church because of my beliefs, nor do I think I ever would be.
 
Damocles said:
But I did. The reality is I say that, but am not a Christian.

So far nothing you have given is proof, yet stronger evidence rests in the posts I quoted from Winterborn in the other direction.

I don't know why it is so important to you that he be what you want him to be, but it is sad when you list speculation and "must have" from a close relative and then say that saying, "for God and Country" means he is Christian.
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You put more weight on evidence that you agree with apparently because it is so important to you that Washington not be Christian, which is sad.
 
Damocles said:
If he did indeed worship there he had a funny way of showing it when he left every service before communion and returned to pick up his wife who partook in the communion. He attended the church, which I have done many times as a non-Christian with my mother. I have never been refused attendance at a church because of my beliefs, nor do I think I ever would be.
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He simply chose to worship Christ in a different manner. *shrug*
 
Southern Man said:
He simply chose to worship Christ in a different manner. *shrug*
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Or he chose to call God by a different name, we'll never know, apparently not even his granddaughter did, yet you tell me with certainty that he was what you want him to be. It's inane. Plenty of the founders were openly Christian, you should take them as examples of what you want to portray rather than the one dude that nobody knows.
 
Damocles said:
Or he chose to call God by a different name, we'll never know, apparently not even his granddaughter did, yet you tell me with certainty that he was what you want him to be. It's inane. Plenty of the founders were openly Christian, you should take them as examples of what you want to portray rather than the one dude that nobody knows.
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Wack-A-Mole, Wack-A-Mole, Wack-A-Mole and the bar keeps rising higher and higher. Let it go Damo, the score is 42-3 and the hometeam has won.
 
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