Nagasaki anniversary.

[Jerome]

Where did I say that? The ad hominem aside, the Soviets already knew we had an atomic weapon. Truman also had also dropped hints to Stalin we had a nuclear weapon at the Yalta conference. The atomic bomb was meant to force a Japanese surrender. Mining of every harbor in Japan and sinking every bit of surface traffic in the Sea of Japan was to force Japan's surrender. The planned invasion was to force Japan's surrender.

Indeed, it's all messaging. No way we were going to expend the lives of tens of thousands of soldiers in an invasion when simply embargoing the island and bombing them occasionally would finish the job.

The Cold War was set by Stalin closing off the borders to Eastern Europe, reneging on his promise to hold open and free elections in Eastern European countries, and doing next to nothing to demobilize his military once the war ended. Toss in the blockade of Berlin, and other overt acts by the Soviets / Stalin to antagonize the West, and you get the Cold War.

The cold war die was cast by virtue of the fact that we were capitalist, and they were communist. "Next to nothing to demobilize his military"? LOL, what do you think the U.S. military did! We parked in Germany and Turkey and Okinawa and Korea, and never left, even to this day.

But hey, if your Stars and Stripes history books tell you to blame it all on Uncle Joe, then be my guest. Just prepare to be wrong in the process.

 

[Jerome]

The only act of cowardice was the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor.

I said the Japanese viewed it as cowardly. Goddamn, you're a sensitive little bitch, aren't you?

 

[Jerome]

The idea that the reason why we bomb countries that we are at war with is because we want to force them to surrender is actually pretty straightforward.

History is always "straightforward" when your knowledge of it is an inch deep and a mile wide.

 

[Airstrip One]

I said the Japanese viewed it as cowardly. Goddamn, you're a sensitive little bitch, aren't you?

I just like saying "sneak attack," since it always cracked me up to hear Greatest GENers say it.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

The cold war die was cast by virtue of the fact that we were capitalist, and they were communist. "Next to nothing to demobilize his military"? LOL, what do you think the U.S. military did! We parked in Germany and Turkey and Okinawa and Korea, and never left, even to this day.

But hey, if your Stars and Stripes history books tell you to blame it all on Uncle Joe, then be my guest. Just prepare to be wrong in the process.

The US drew down immensely starting on VE day, and increased that no VJ day. The US military at the end of WW 2 had about 12 million total personnel, uniformed and civilian serving. Twenty four months later that was down to about 1.5 million in the service. Here in Arizona, there were at least half-a-dozen major aircraft boneyards where thousands of US military aircraft were dropped off mostly for disposal.

The US Navy mothballed over a thousand ships like these

The Red Army on the other hand barely demobilized at all. There was little planning and virtually no veteran's benefits given. The Red Army continued to stand at about 3 million men. There were over 100 divisions stationed throughout Eastern Europe alone. The Soviets did not end their draft, only reduced the size and scope of it at the end of the war.

That the US continued to have a military presence overseas was nothing compared to what was sent during the war. The Soviets on the other hand barely and only reluctantly gave up a scrap of ground they held at the end of the war and even in some cases occupied more.

 

[Anvil Kasseri]

Indeed, it's all messaging.

The messaging was directed at Japan. The message was "surrender".

No way we were going to expend the lives of tens of thousands of soldiers in an invasion when simply embargoing the island and bombing them occasionally would finish the job.

Our use of the atomic bombs counted as bombing them.

But you are once again wrong. It was going to take an invasion of Kyushu to tighten our blockade.

And if Japan still had not surrendered when we were ready to invade Honshu, we were going to invade Honshu.

The cold war die was cast by virtue of the fact that we were capitalist, and they were communist. "Next to nothing to demobilize his military"? LOL, what do you think the U.S. military did! We parked in Germany and Turkey and Okinawa and Korea, and never left, even to this day.

But hey, if your Stars and Stripes history books tell you to blame it all on Uncle Joe, then be my guest. Just prepare to be wrong in the process.

People are not wrong to blame Stalin's aggression for the Cold War.

History is always "straightforward" when your knowledge of it is an inch deep and a mile wide.

You are the only person here who is ignorant of history. That's why you are the one who keeps making untrue claims.

 

[Airstrip One]

I'm personally happy to see progressives be against the use of the atomic bombs. In their own view, it means there is a stain on all of the progressive presidents; from Wilson (institutional racism) to FDR, (concentration camps) to Truman (atomic bombs), to LBJ (free fire zones, etc).

 

[moon]

That's why you are the one who keeps making untrue claims.

Claiming that Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Tokyo were military objectives is a downright , ass-covering lie. Each was a civilian center and A-bombing/fire-bombing them in order to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians, men,women and children were gross acts of inhumane terrorism- certainly war crimes by any standards, then or now.

 

[Anvil Kasseri]

Claiming that Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Tokyo were military objectives is a downright , ass-covering lie. Each was a civilian center

Hiroshima was a large military port with tens of thousands of Japanese soldiers awaiting deployment to resist our invasion of Kyushu.

Hiroshima was also the military headquarters in charge of repelling our invasion of Kyushu.

Kokura Arsenal (the intended target of the second A-bomb) was a massive (4100 feet by 2000 feet) machine gun factory. It was one of Japan's main sources of light machine guns, heavy machine guns, and 20mm anti-aircraft machine guns, as well as ammo for all of those machine guns.

The Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works (destroyed by the second A-bomb) produced steel for Japan's war industry and used some of that steel to produce 100 naval torpedoes a month.

The Mitsubishi-Urakami Ordnance Plant (destroyed by the second A-bomb) produced 400 aerial torpedoes a month.

Pearl Harbor had been thought immune to air-dropped torpedoes because the harbor was so shallow that an air-dropped torpedo would hit bottom and embed in the mud. Aside from Tokyo Bay, Pearl Harbor was the only place in the world with such natural defenses against air-dropped torpedoes. Japan had to develop special torpedo technology designed just for Pearl Harbor in order to attack us. The Mitsubishi-Urakami Ordnance Plant was the place that designed and built those torpedoes.

Here's a picture of the Mitsubishi Urakami Ordnance Plant after the A-bomb:
https://www.osti.gov/opennet/manhattan-project-history/images/mitsubishi_image.htm

There was lots of war industry in Tokyo as well. And also in the other cities attacked by our incendiary raids.

and A-bombing/fire-bombing them in order to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians, men,women and children were gross acts of inhumane terrorism- certainly war crimes by any standards, then or now.

We didn't attack them to kill civilians. We attacked them to destroy military objectives. That means the attacks were not terrorism and not war crimes.

 

[moon]

We didn't attack them to kill civilians. We attacked them to destroy military objectives. That means the attacks were not terrorism and not war crimes.

That attempt at defense would have been laughed out of The Hague. Before you were hung, of course. It rates with razing the Warsaw Ghetto because there might have been armed Jews in there.

 

[Jerome]

We didn't attack them to kill civilians. We attacked them to destroy military objectives. That means the attacks were not terrorism and not war crimes.

He says, about a bombing that killed 80,000 civilians and 150 soldiers.

 

[Anvil Kasseri]

That attempt at defense would have been laughed out of The Hague. Before you were hung, of course. It rates with razing the Warsaw Ghetto because there might have been armed Jews in there.

That is incorrect. The Hague cares about facts.

He says, about a bombing that killed 80,000 civilians and 150 soldiers.

Kokura Arsenal (the intended target of the second A-bomb) was a massive (4100 feet by 2000 feet) machine gun factory. It was Japan's main source of light machine guns, heavy machine guns, and 20mm anti-aircraft machine guns, as well as ammo for all of those machine guns.

The Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works (destroyed by the second A-bomb) produced steel for Japan's war industry and used some of that steel to produce 100 naval torpedoes a month.

The Mitsubishi-Urakami Ordnance Plant (destroyed by the second A-bomb) produced 400 aerial torpedoes a month.

Pearl Harbor had been thought immune to air-dropped torpedoes because the harbor was so shallow that an air-dropped torpedo would hit bottom and embed in the mud. Aside from Tokyo Bay, Pearl Harbor was the only place in the world with such natural defenses against air-dropped torpedoes. Japan had to develop special torpedo technology designed just for Pearl Harbor in order to attack us. The Mitsubishi-Urakami Ordnance Plant was the place that designed and built those torpedoes.

Here's a picture of the Mitsubishi Urakami Ordnance Plant after the A-bomb:
https://www.osti.gov/opennet/manhattan-project-history/images/mitsubishi_image.htm

 

[T. A. Gardner]

He says, about a bombing that killed 80,000 civilians and 150 soldiers.

In the case of Hiroshima, about 20,000 of the casualties were military personnel stationed in and around the city. Two of these were the crew of an F1M Floatplane that was airborne in the vicinity of the bombing and the pilot decided to fly into the mushroom cloud shortly after the detonation where both he and his observer were exposed to lethal doses of radiation and died days later.

 

[BartenderElite]

In the case of Hiroshima, about 20,000 of the casualties were military personnel stationed in and around the city. Two of these were the crew of an F1M Floatplane that was airborne in the vicinity of the bombing and the pilot decided to fly into the mushroom cloud shortly after the detonation where both he and his observer were exposed to lethal doses of radiation and died days later.

A distinction without much of a difference...

 

[Jerome]

In the case of Hiroshima, about 20,000 of the casualties were military personnel stationed in and around the city. Two of these were the crew of an F1M Floatplane that was airborne in the vicinity of the bombing and the pilot decided to fly into the mushroom cloud shortly after the detonation where both he and his observer were exposed to lethal doses of radiation and died days later.

That was a reference to Nagasaki. If you don't know that, it's probably for the reasons I suspect: You're not all that informed about the history of this subject, nor are you informed about the number and kind of casualties on the ground.

 

[Jerome]

That is incorrect. The Hague cares about facts.



Kokura Arsenal (the intended target of the second A-bomb) was a massive (4100 feet by 2000 feet) machine gun factory. It was Japan's main source of light machine guns, heavy machine guns, and 20mm anti-aircraft machine guns, as well as ammo for all of those machine guns.

The Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works (destroyed by the second A-bomb) produced steel for Japan's war industry and used some of that steel to produce 100 naval torpedoes a month.

The Mitsubishi-Urakami Ordnance Plant (destroyed by the second A-bomb) produced 400 aerial torpedoes a month.

Pearl Harbor had been thought immune to air-dropped torpedoes because the harbor was so shallow that an air-dropped torpedo would hit bottom and embed in the mud. Aside from Tokyo Bay, Pearl Harbor was the only place in the world with such natural defenses against air-dropped torpedoes. Japan had to develop special torpedo technology designed just for Pearl Harbor in order to attack us. The Mitsubishi-Urakami Ordnance Plant was the place that designed and built those torpedoes.

Here's a picture of the Mitsubishi Urakami Ordnance Plant after the A-bomb:
https://www.osti.gov/opennet/manhattan-project-history/images/mitsubishi_image.htm

So if Russia nuked downtown San Diego, we can say "fair play, that was a military target"?

 

[T. A. Gardner]

That was a reference to Nagasaki. If you don't know that, it's probably for the reasons I suspect: You're not all that informed about the history of this subject, nor are you informed about the number and kind of casualties on the ground.

Nagasaki was a target of opportunity taken by the crew dropping the bomb because their primary and secondary were overcast or covered by smoke. But that doesn't make Nagasaki not a military target. There were plenty of war industries there. So, smashing that city was still a legitimate military target.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

So if Russia nuked downtown San Diego, we can say "fair play, that was a military target"?

One could if the target were the SPAWAR buildings just off downtown by Lindbergh field, or within a few miles of downtown:

Marine Corps Recruit Depot over off Rosecrans Blvd.
Naval Base Point Loma
Naval Base 32nd Street
Naval Air Station North Island
Naval Amphibious Base Coronado where the SEALS and such hang out along with the HQ for COMNAVSURFPAC
the Naval Supply Depot right downtown,
etc.

San Diego is a major military city for the US Navy and Marine Corps.

 

[Billy the Great Khan]

Daily reminder that general Douglas MacArthur was right and we should have nuked Beijing in the 1950s.

 

[Anvil Kasseri]

So if Russia nuked downtown San Diego, we can say "fair play, that was a military target"?

There would be no accusations of war crimes.

But Russia would have committed an act of nuclear war against the United States. All of Russia's ICBM silos and submarine bases would be destroyed by nuclear explosions within the hour.