Mrs. Santorum

[Phantasmal]

Yes, I am pretty sure it is the same child. Most hospitals encourage families to spend time with an infant that is either stillborn or dies shortly after birth. While it is unusual they took the dead child home vs bringing the others to the hospital, it isn't that big of a surprise.

I would spend time with the child, I seriously doubt I would expose my young children. There was a time in our society that death was dealt with at home, but times have changed. It is a personal matter, but I would not do what they did. I two families I knew who had third trimester children that died. They took pictures, dressed the baby, said their good byes, but they did not take the child home to the other younger child. Maybe, we should, as a society be more at ease with death, but we aren't. I had nightmares for several months after my grandmother died. I was 10 and was permitted to go to the funeral, I decided after that not to attend anymore funerals until I was in my 20's.

To each his own, but I would not be comfortable exposing my living children to my dead one, but one does not know what one would do until it happens to you. I just find it a bit much.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I will say that I agree with him about partial birth abortions but as far as I can see he is against abortion entirely.

I don't. Santorum doesn't hold a Medical Doctorate and no medical procedure is ever 100% contraindicated. The overwhelming majority of late term abortion in which the intact D&X procedure (commonly called partial birth abortion) are performed on non-viable fetuses with acute hydrocephalus where a normal birth would present an unreasonable risk to the mothers life and health.

I know of no one who advocates permiting late term abortions, at will, on viable fetuses but I think one must be very careful not to make knee jerk emotional reactions that may tie the hands of physicians to use life saving modalities under these sort of extenuating circumstances.

 

[Phantasmal]

What abortion procedures are used during the third trimester?
Third trimester or late term abortions are not legal in a number of states, except in certain medical situations. The time considered late term is often based on when a baby can be called "viable" ( meaning able to survive outside the womb), but this point of "viability" is a grey area in many medical communities. Most consider that 24 weeks gestation is the earliest time of viabilty which is the later part of the second trimester. Therefore, the availability of any procedure used in the third trimester is based on the laws in that state. The following are two procedures that can be done in the third trimester.

Induction Abortion: a rarely done surgical procedure where salt water, urea, or potassium chloride is injected into the amniotic sac; prostaglandins are inserted into the vagina and pitocin is injected intravenously.
Dilation and Extraction: a surgical abortion procedure used to terminate a pregnancy after 21 weeks of gestation. This procedure is also known as D & X, Intact D & X, Intrauterine Cranial Decompression and Partial Birth Abortion. *This procedure is now considered against the law in the U.S. according to the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act of 1995*

 

[leaningright]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying Damo. Why should the physician even have a say at all? It's not his/her life after all.

I understand the sentiment here. When I read your original statement I couldn't help but think of the situation of a former student (who later became a friend) and his wife in the 90's. She was pregnant with twins and toward the end of the pregnancy was having problems. The doctors assured her that there could be problems when it came time for delivery. During this time it could become possible for them to save the mother at the expense of the lives of the babies. The doctor made it very plain that this is exactly what they [the doctors] would do...essentially a late term abortion...should the situation arise as they said it might. This young couple had to make a difficult choice whether to have the procedure if things went awry. When they decided that everything was to be done to save the babies, even at the expense of the mother's life, they had a terrible time convincing the doctors to carry out things as they had decided. Finally with papers signed and all i's dotted and t's crossed, it came time for the babies to be born. While there were difficulties, fortunately mother and babies all eventually came out of it OK.

The decision should be the parents'. The parents should know up front the views of the doctor and proceed accordingly. When it it time to "push" as someone put it, is not the time to find out the views of the doctor. I am glad everything went well for your mom and sister. By the way, I'm a '66 model too.

 

[leaningright]

They are not automatons to be forced to do things against their beliefs. Information will allow people to make decisions, saying that the doctor should have no say in his actions is silly when options exist that allow both his beliefs and yours to be followed without force.

Give the right information at the right time and you can choose the right doctor, saying the doctor should be forced to act "this way" or "that" is just misapplied government force.

I definitely agree with the bolded above.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Dilation and Extraction: a surgical abortion procedure used to terminate a pregnancy after 21 weeks of gestation. This procedure is also known as D & X, Intact D & X, Intrauterine Cranial Decompression and Partial Birth Abortion. *This procedure is now considered against the law in the U.S. according to the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act of 1995*

It is and it isin't. It's not permitted for abortions of "viable" fetuses and not needed in early term abortions but is still permitted in cases in which the mothers life and health (defined as serious and permanent physical disability of the mother). Nor did the legislation outlaw hysterotomies (which are rarely used for obvious reasons) in which a c-section is peformed in the unviable fetus and it is permitted to die naturally.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I would spend time with the child, I seriously doubt I would expose my young children. There was a time in our society that death was dealt with at home, but times have changed. It is a personal matter, but I would not do what they did. I two families I knew who had third trimester children that died. They took pictures, dressed the baby, said their good byes, but they did not take the child home to the other younger child. Maybe, we should, as a society be more at ease with death, but we aren't. I had nightmares for several months after my grandmother died. I was 10 and was permitted to go to the funeral, I decided after that not to attend anymore funerals until I was in my 20's.

I can understand your position. But it is that disconnect with death that we must overcome. It is why the social service workers encourage parents in such situations to be open and honest with their other kids about what happened. They do recommend that the deceased child be visited by the parents and other children. Obviously it is the HOW we handle death that can make a difference. I attended every family funeral when I was young, mostly great aunts/uncles great grandparents etc... the first few were all traditional Irish Catholic funerals followed by wakes. People said their goodbyes in the church, then celebrated the life of the individual at the wake that followed. People that knew the deceased would share stories (usually with large quantities of alcohol being consumed... like any good Irish Catholic would do). I always liked the wakes as often I would learn things about the deceased that I had never known. I guess that is a large part of why I don't have a problem nor did I have nightmares about situations like that. As I have lost friends and family over the years, the Irish wake tradition is something I share, regardless of who passed.

To each his own, but I would not be comfortable exposing my living children to my dead one, but one does not know what one would do until it happens to you. I just find it a bit much.

I agree that people must act in such situation to whatever degree they are comfortable. If a parent isn't comfortable having the other kids see the dead child, the other kids will pick up on that apprehension and it could make matters worse.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I definitely agree with the bolded above.

So do I unless the Doctor's behavior crosses the line of a Doctor denying a patient their rights. Medical Doctors are some of the most brilliant and highly educated people in our society but they are not omnipotent gods.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I will say that I agree with him about partial birth abortions but as far as I can see he is against abortion entirely.

I really don't know much about Santorum personally, he is too far to the right for my tastes... that said, if someone could post where he stated he was against abortion even in the case where the mothers life was in danger, I would like to read up on it.

That said, Romney is going to win the nomination, so as long as he doesn't pander to the base and put someone like Santorum on the ticket with him, I could care less what Santorum's views are.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I understand the sentiment here. When I read your original statement I couldn't help but think of the situation of a former student (who later became a friend) and his wife in the 90's. She was pregnant with twins and toward the end of the pregnancy was having problems. The doctors assured her that there could be problems when it came time for delivery. During this time it could become possible for them to save the mother at the expense of the lives of the babies. The doctor made it very plain that this is exactly what they [the doctors] would do...essentially a late term abortion...should the situation arise as they said it might. This young couple had to make a difficult choice whether to have the procedure if things went awry. When they decided that everything was to be done to save the babies, even at the expense of the mother's life, they had a terrible time convincing the doctors to carry out things as they had decided. Finally with papers signed and all i's dotted and t's crossed, it came time for the babies to be born. While there were difficulties, fortunately mother and babies all eventually came out of it OK.

The decision should be the parents'. The parents should know up front the views of the doctor and proceed accordingly. When it it time to "push" as someone put it, is not the time to find out the views of the doctor. I am glad everything went well for your mom and sister. By the way, I'm a '66 model too.

I agree whole heartedly. Either way it does, the decision should be that of the parents and family though primarily the mother, whose life is at stake after all.

 

[leaningright]

I would spend time with the child, I seriously doubt I would expose my young children. There was a time in our society that death was dealt with at home, but times have changed. It is a personal matter, but I would not do what they did. I two families I knew who had third trimester children that died. They took pictures, dressed the baby, said their good byes, but they did not take the child home to the other younger child. Maybe, we should, as a society be more at ease with death, but we aren't. I had nightmares for several months after my grandmother died. I was 10 and was permitted to go to the funeral, I decided after that not to attend anymore funerals until I was in my 20's.

To each his own, but I would not be comfortable exposing my living children to my dead one, but one does not know what one would do until it happens to you. I just find it a bit much.

Teaching children about death and how to handle death is an important part of their upbringing. I would not be against handling such a situation either way....whether showing a dead sibling to youngsters or not. My mother took me to funerals from the time I was 5. She explained things to me and I grew up realizing that people will eventually die. When she died I grieved, cried and such but because of her teaching me I was able to handle it better than I would have thougt. Each family/person has different ways of approaching the death of a loved one.

 

[cancel2 2022]

I don't. Santorum doesn't hold a Medical Doctorate and no medical procedure is ever 100% contraindicated. The overwhelming majority of late term abortion in which the intact D&X procedure (commonly called partial birth abortion) are performed on non-viable fetuses with acute hydrocephalus where a normal birth would present an unreasonable risk to the mothers life and health.

I know of no one who advocates permiting late term abortions, at will, on viable fetuses but I think one must be very careful not to make knee jerk emotional reactions that may tie the hands of physicians to use life saving modalities under these sort of extenuating circumstances.

OK, thanks for the info.

 

[apple0154]

I was born and raised a Catholic and went to a primary school run by nuns. I can still remember canings we used to get across the hand.

Your post reminded me of this clip.

Note: For some reason it tends to stall in my Windows 7. The full clip is about 4 minutes but if you click on the time line at 3:00 you'll see the good part. HA!

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I really don't know much about Santorum personally, he is too far to the right for my tastes... that said, if someone could post where he stated he was against abortion even in the case where the mothers life was in danger, I would like to read up on it.

That said, Romney is going to win the nomination, so as long as he doesn't pander to the base and put someone like Santorum on the ticket with him, I could care less what Santorum's views are.

Considering the current State of the Republican party and assuming Romney wins the nomination I'll be very interested in who Romney picks as a running mate. McCain's choice of Palin probably did more to lose the election for him then any other blunder he may have made.

Maybe Romney should consider a double Mormon ticket? I have huge respect for John Huntsman. Mitch Daniels of Indiana maybe? Is it presumptious to begin discussion of his possible running mate?

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Teaching children about death and how to handle death is an important part of their upbringing. I would not be against handling such a situation either way....whether showing a dead sibling to youngsters or not. My mother took me to funerals from the time I was 5. She explained things to me and I grew up realizing that people will eventually die. When she died I grieved, cried and such but because of her teaching me I was able to handle it better than I would have thougt. Each family/person has different ways of approaching the death of a loved one.

My mother wants us to grow tomato plants on her grave but to be honest with you....I'd find it just a tad to creepy to ever eat those tomatos.

 

[cancel2 2022]

Considering the current State of the Republican party and assuming Romney wins the nomination I'll be very interested in who Romney picks as a running mate. McCain's choice of Palin probably did more to lose the election for him then any other blunder he may have made.

Maybe Romney should consider a double Mormon ticket? I have huge respect for John Huntsman. Mitch Daniels of Indiana maybe? Is it presumptious to begin discussion of his possible running mate?

So there is still hope for Donny O as VP.

 

[Alias]

The left is scared to death of Santorum. They're gonna say he is a witch doctor, a drug addict, a cult leader, deranged, alcoholic, wife beater, etc, etc.

 

[Alias]

Considering the current State of the Republican party and assuming Romney wins the nomination I'll be very interested in who Romney picks as a running mate. McCain's choice of Palin probably did more to lose the election for him then any other blunder he may have made.

Maybe Romney should consider a double Mormon ticket? I have huge respect for John Huntsman. Mitch Daniels of Indiana maybe? Is it presumptious to begin discussion of his possible running mate?

The current state of the republican party is certainly in better shape than the democrat party. Did you forget who got their ass kicked just 13-1/2 months ago?

 

[cancel2 2022]

The left is scared to death of Santorum. They're gonna say he is a witch doctor, a drug addict, a cult leader, deranged, alcoholic, wife beater, etc, etc.

Didn't you say you smoke dope? I'm pretty sure he would have you locked up for possession.

 

[Alias]

Didn't you say you smoke dope? I'm pretty sure he would have you locked up for possession.

Paranoia strikes deep.....into your heart it will creep......starts when you're always afraid........