losing dem majority in 2010

evince said:
If you have a gun and its unregistared it can be confiscated at any point of contact with the athorities.

Many of the recent mass shooters were legal gun owners.
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Would you care to show where in the world you received this bit of information??
 
evince said:
If you have a gun and its unregistared it can be confiscated at any point of contact with the athorities.

Many of the recent mass shooters were legal gun owners.
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this is exactly why people believe registration infringes on the second amendment.

one does not have to register anything or fill out any forms in order to have the Constitutional right to a speedy public trial. It is automatic.

Now consider the situation if you do not register a gun. Is the Second Amendment somehow instantly suspended? Did it vanish? Do you somehow lose the right to keep and bear arms? Certainly not.

If you can lose a "right" by not filling out a piece of paper, then it is not a right. It is a privilege granted by the government, which is a different thing altogether. In the area of government, a privilege is a special permission or immunity granted by a government, it is generally related to the use of some public facility (such as driving on the streets, or using the public library) and it may be suspended or revoked even for minor infractions or misdemeanors.

In sum: Rights do not require government registration, certification, or approval, and are not subject to any form of taxation — otherwise they are not rights, they are privileges granted at the discretion of the government, controlled by the government, and revocable by the government.

http://keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=1052
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Onceler said:
I don't agree with that; even if they are made illegal, if people bought them, the gov't shouldn't have a right to do that.

There are safeguards that can be built in, however. Registration on its own does not lead to confiscation; that's a fear tactic. All they have to do is grandfather in something about previous ownership.
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Historically, mass registration led to confiscation. Germans were required to register their fire arms, then the Nazi's passed laws making ownership a crime, especially by Jews, everyone was disarmed, especially the Jews, then when they came for the Jews they could not defend themselves.
 
Yurt said:
are you actually claiming that if you don't register there will be no penalty?

are you ok with the government requiring you to register your bible or anyone's bible?
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Onceler said:
Not really, but that's a complete non sequitor. Gun registration is a law enforcement tool; it is not an infringement of rights. People can own a gun; they just have to register it. Again - for law abiding citizens, who use their guns in a lawful manner, this should not be an issue.
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Yurt said:
how so....you asked me if it had any negative consequences...unless you believe there will no penalty for not registering your gun, then yes, there will be negative consequences...not sure how you believe that is a non sequitor
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onceler:

just wondering if you missed this, i'm enjoying our debate on this subject.
 
Onceler said:
Not really, but that's a complete non sequitor. Gun registration is a law enforcement tool; it is not an infringement of rights. People can own a gun; they just have to register it. Again - for law abiding citizens, who use their guns in a lawful manner, this should not be an issue.
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That's right, and law abiding citizens should not fear a police that want to search without a warrant, I mean if you have nothing to hide, why would you mind? These arguments to surrender liberties so that you can do NOTHING MORE than feel safe. Registration does not deter crime.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
laws CAN change, constitutions do NOT get reinterpreted, nor would you WANT them to be. to even intimate that this is possible leaves everything open for reinterpretation and THAT, I do not believe you want.
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It appears that DNC would have no problem if the "PEOPLE" decided that slavery was OK, again, land forced him to report to the nearest plantation.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
i don't see a disagreement. I believe that there is nothing in the constitution that prevents anyone from burning a flag either. and the jar comment? :clink:
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Just like there's nothing that prohibits someone else from putting the fire out.
The best picture I ever saw, was the one where the protester was burning an American Flag and caught himself on fire.

Poetic Justice!!
 
Onceler said:
Not really, but that's a complete non sequitor. Gun registration is a law enforcement tool; it is not an infringement of rights. People can own a gun; they just have to register it. Again - for law abiding citizens, who use their guns in a lawful manner, this should not be an issue.
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Would you care to argue your point, with someone in Australia??
 
Onceler said:
I don't agree with that; even if they are made illegal, if people bought them, the gov't shouldn't have a right to do that.

There are safeguards that can be built in, however. Registration on its own does not lead to confiscation; that's a fear tactic. All they have to do is grandfather in something about previous ownership.
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We give you case history where it DID happen. We can also refer you to Britain, Australia, Germany, France, etc. You say "registration on its own does not lead to confiscation" yet we show you how it HAS happened time and again. So you do not agree with confiscation following registration. BFD. The fact is it DID happen, and it happened right here in the United States of America where we (supposedly) have a constitution protecting us from such actions.

Second point: registration is, in effect, obtaining government permission to own a firearm. Since when do we need PERMISSION to exercise a constitutionally enumerated right? The next thing that happens is registration becomes a stricture method. Oops, didn't cross your T exactly parallel to the bottom of the form - permission denied. Look at how D.C., after the Heller decision, actually had the balls to deny Heller his license. One more way in which registration can - and has been abused to abridge our rights.

Third point: law enforcement can say whatever they want - it does not make them correct. Registration is USELESS in 99% of crime tracking because criminals use UNREGISTERED firearms. (Fucking DUH!)

Safeguards? The 2nd Amendment is supposed to be our safeguard and states like California violate it left and right with the approval of mindless liberals wwho wet their panties at the mere sight of a firearm. You look at the way firearms rights have gone right here in the United Sattes, and still believe it "reasonable" that I should tell the fucking government what I have in my cabinets so you can feel "safe"? Bullshit. It's very sad how you actually trust the fucking government more than your own fellow citizens. Tell me this: who is MORE likely to abuse their power: law abiding firearms owners, or politicians?
 
Onceler said:
Not really, but that's a complete non sequitor. Gun registration is a law enforcement tool; it is not an infringement of rights. People can own a gun; they just have to register it. Again - for law abiding citizens, who use their guns in a lawful manner, this should not be an issue.
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Very lame. That's right along with the "you shouldn't object to warrantless searches if you are a law abiding citizen."

It is none of the government's business what I own. It's none of your business. If you feel unsafe because people like myself have firearms the government does not know about, too friggin bad. That is a problem with your view of people, not a problem with the people.
 
There really is no reason for that kind of hostility in a debate like this.

As for the contention that registration is useless in crime solving at the moment...could that possibly be because most states don't require registration currently?
 
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