Kerch Strait Conflict

anatta said:
* what's this all about? RT says it's about Ukraine not following notification procedure. thoughts? *

https://www.rt.com/news/444857-russia-ukraine-kerch-strait-standoff/
the Ukrainian vessels were sailing between two Ukrainian ports: from Odessa in the Black Sea to Mariupol in the Azov Sea. The only waterway that connects these is the Kerch Strait between Crimea and mainland Russia. Kiev says it notified Moscow in advance that its navy ships would be sailing through the area. Moscow denies that it was given warning.

While both Russia and Ukraine have freedom of navigation in the Kerch Strait under a 2003 treaty, there are detailed technical rules on how vessels should pass through the narrow, complex waterway. All traffic in the area is controlled by the Crimean sea port of Kerch, and every ship should contact the facility, report her route and destination, and receive permission to sail through the Strait.

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krainian vessels continued their journey despite warnings from the Russian authorities. The Ukrainian Navy said the military vessels were sailing from the port city of Odessa to the Azov port of Mariupol as part of a scheduled routine transfer and claimed that it warned the Russian authorities about the trip in advance.

The FSB denounced the actions of the Ukrainian vessels as "provocation." A video released by Russian authorities shows the Ukrainian vessels maneuvering in close proximity to the Russian ones.

At midnight, the FSB released a statement, saying that Russian warships had to open fire after the three Ukrainian ships ignored "legal demands to stop" and continued "performing dangerous maneuvers."

Three Ukrainian sailors were wounded and given medical assistance, while the ships were seized. The group of ships that were heading to the strait from the Azov Sea turned back to their port.

round midnight, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko instructed the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine (NSDC) to convene for an emergency meeting proposing to impose martial law. The council has moved forward with the motion. The Verkhovna Rada, the Ukrainian parliament, will vote on whether to approve the decision in an extraordinary session on Monday.

Poroshenko stated that martial law will not mean immediate mobilization of troops and said that no offensive operations are being planned.
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Kudos to our Ambassador Halley for nailing Putin's hide to the shed.

Putin wants international recognition as if Russia were economically relevant. Putin wants back into the G-8.

Trump's Ambassador Halley stated publicly at the U.N. that as long as Putin is party to such piracy, Russia will remain an economic also-ran.

Sadly, former KGB Putin is more comfortable at War with the West, than sharing Western prosperity with the People of Russia.
 
sear said:
Kudos to our Ambassador Halley for nailing Putin's hide to the shed.

Putin wants international recognition as if Russia were economically relevant. Putin wants back into the G-8.

Trump's Ambassador Halley stated publicly at the U.N. that as long as Putin is party to such piracy, Russia will remain an economic also-ran.

Sadly, former KGB Putin is more comfortable at War with the West, than sharing Western prosperity with the People of Russia.
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ridiculously facile.. no comment on the failure to notify?
Putin's "relevance" (military and economic) is now tied directly to China as a result of our over-sanctioning Russia,
despite the fact we forced moved Putin to seize Crimea.

When you start to agree with Halley and her Russiaphobia - ignoring geopolitics...
 
sear said:
Kudos to our Ambassador Halley for nailing Putin's hide to the shed.

Putin wants international recognition as if Russia were economically relevant. Putin wants back into the G-8.

Trump's Ambassador Halley stated publicly at the U.N. that as long as Putin is party to such piracy, Russia will remain an economic also-ran.

Sadly, former KGB Putin is more comfortable at War with the West, than sharing Western prosperity with the People of Russia.
Click to expand...

Taking a stand by Putin seems to be the opposite of what he would have done if he was trying to get back into the G-8. It's more likely that he's had to write that off as not being possible.

The truth is, Putin has take a stand again and in this case he was urged to take a stand. This incident, including Ukraine ships not heeding warning shots, was orchestrated by Poroshenko. The US would have been notified ahead of time of course. Now it's over.

Russia/Putin is not going to back down to US/Nato efforts to infringe further on Russia's borders. The US/Nato can keep pushing but they know that Putin won't stop short of nuclear war to protect Russia from any further US aggression.

These sort of provocations will continue and they serve to harden Americans' resolve to hate Russia/Putin in place of the Soviet Union/communism. The propaganda value in it is to have the blame placed firmly on Russia.

The problem with that US ploy is, much of the world isn't buying into it.
 
montgomery said:
Taking a stand by Putin seems to be the opposite of what he would have done if he was trying to get back into the G-8. It's more likely that he's had to write that off as not being possible.

The truth is, Putin has take a stand again and in this case he was urged to take a stand. This incident, including Ukraine ships not heeding warning shots, was orchestrated by Poroshenko. The US would have been notified ahead of time of course. Now it's over.

Russia/Putin is not going to back down to US/Nato efforts to infringe further on Russia's borders. The US/Nato can keep pushing but they know that Putin won't stop short of nuclear war to protect Russia from any further US aggression.

These sort of provocations will continue and they serve to harden Americans' resolve to hate Russia/Putin in place of the Soviet Union/communism. The propaganda value in it is to have the blame placed firmly on Russia.

The problem with that US ploy is, much of the world isn't buying into it.
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good pick up on your part about Poroshenko..did you say Uk elections are coming up?

That's a pretty straight line then -gin up more fears of Russia to drive his re-election
 
noise said:
good pick up on your part about Poroshenko..did you say Uk elections are coming up?

That's a pretty straight line then -gin up more fears of Russia to drive his re-election
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I don't think demonizing Putin has anything to do with UK elections. It's Ukraine's election that's coming up. In any case, all that really matters is that Putin is not going to back down. Otherwise, you're too smart by half for an American.
 
noise said:
America's Ukraine Hypocrisy
Despite his leadership defects and character flaws, Yanukovych had been duly elected in balloting that international observers considered reasonably free and fair —about the best standard one can hope for outside the mature Western democracies. A decent respect for democratic institutions and procedures meant that he ought to be able to serve out his lawful term as president, which would end in 2016.

Neither the domestic opposition nor Washington and its European Union allies behaved in that fashion.
Instead, Western leaders made it clear that they supported the efforts of demonstrators to force Yanukovych to reverse course and approve the EU agreement or, if he would not do so, to remove the president before his term expired.
Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), the ranking Republican on the Senate Armed Services Committee, went to Kiev to show solidarity with the Euromaidan activists.
McCain dined with opposition leaders, including members of the ultra right-wing Svoboda Party , and later appeared on stage in Maidan Square during a mass rally.
He stood shoulder to shoulder with Svoboda leader Oleg Tyagnibok.

But McCain’s actions were a model of diplomatic restraint compared to the conduct of Victoria Nuland, the assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian Affairs.
As Ukraine’s political crisis deepened, Nuland and her subordinates became more brazen in favoring the anti-Yanukovych demonstrators. Nuland noted in a speech to the U.S.-Ukraine Foundation on December 13, 2013, that she had traveled to Ukraine three times in the weeks following the start of the demonstrations. Visiting the Maidan on December 5, she handed out cookies to demonstrators and expressed support for their cause.

The extent of the Obama administration’s meddling in Ukraine’s politics was breathtaking.
Russian intelligence intercepted and leaked to the international media a Nuland telephone call in which she and U.S. ambassador to Ukraine Geoffey Pyatt discussed in detail their preferences for specific personnel in a post-Yanukovych government. The U.S-favored candidates included Arseniy Yatsenyuk, the man who became prime minister once Yanukovych was ousted from power. During the telephone call, Nuland stated enthusiastically that “Yats is the guy” who would do the best job.

Nuland and Pyatt were engaged in such planning at a time when Yanukovych was still Ukraine’s lawful president. It was startling to have diplomatic representatives of a foreign country—and a country that routinely touts the need to respect democratic processes and the sovereignty of other nations—to be scheming about removing an elected government and replacing it with officials meriting U.S. approval.

Washington’s conduct not only constituted meddling, it bordered on micromanagement.

Both the Obama administration and most of the American news media portrayed the Euromaidan Revolution as a spontaneous, popular uprising against a corrupt and brutal government.
The Nuland-Pyatt telephone conversation and other actions confirm that the United States was considerably more than a passive observer to the turbulence.
Instead, U.S. officials were blatantly meddling in Ukraine. Such conduct was utterly improper.
The United States had no right to try to orchestrate political outcomes in another country—especially one on the border of another great power.
It is no wonder that Russia reacted badly to the unconstitutional ouster of an elected, pro-Russian government—an ouster that occurred not only with Washington’s blessing, but apparently with its assistance.
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To put things into perspective a bit, the Russian threats originated long before the alleged "coup" was about to take place. From a guardian article (September 2013):

Ukraine's EU trade deal will be catastrophic, says Russia

[...]"We don't want to use any kind of blackmail. This is a question for the Ukrainian people,' said Glazyev [Economic Advisor of Putin]. "But legally, signing this agreement about association with EU, the Ukrainian government violates the treaty on strategic partnership and friendship with Russia." When this happened, he said, Russia could no longer guarantee Ukraine's status as a state and could possibly intervene if pro-Russian regions of the country appealed directly to Moscow."[...]
 
Dracul said:
To put things into perspective a bit, the Russian threats originated long before the alleged "coup" was about to take place. From a guardian article (September 2013):

Ukraine's EU trade deal will be catastrophic, says Russia

[...]"We don't want to use any kind of blackmail. This is a question for the Ukrainian people,' said Glazyev [Economic Advisor of Putin]. "But legally, signing this agreement about association with EU, the Ukrainian government violates the treaty on strategic partnership and friendship with Russia." When this happened, he said, Russia could no longer guarantee Ukraine's status as a state and could possibly intervene if pro-Russian regions of the country appealed directly to Moscow."[...]
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"Russia: Yanukovich asked Putin to use force to save Ukraine
Louis Charbonneau


UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - Ukraine’s ousted leader Viktor Yanukovich has sent a letter to Russian President Vladimir Putin requesting that he use Russia’s military to restore law and order in Ukraine, Moscow’s U.N. envoy told a stormy meeting of the Security Council on Monday. ... "

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...e-force-to-save-ukraine-idUSBREA2224720140304

:thumbsup:
 
montgomery said:
I don't think demonizing Putin has anything to do with UK elections. It's Ukraine's election that's coming up. In any case, all that really matters is that Putin is not going to back down. Otherwise, you're too smart by half for an American.
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yes I am American.
I did not mean to say demonization ; but the actions by Poro. look like they were coordinated to provoke the Russian response .
Calling for martial law is another action -designed to gin up fears-with Poro. as the defender of Uk.
 
Bigdog said:
"Russia: Yanukovich asked Putin to use force to save Ukraine
Louis Charbonneau


UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - Ukraine’s ousted leader Viktor Yanukovich has sent a letter to Russian President Vladimir Putin requesting that he use Russia’s military to restore law and order in Ukraine, Moscow’s U.N. envoy told a stormy meeting of the Security Council on Monday. ... "

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...e-force-to-save-ukraine-idUSBREA2224720140304

:thumbsup:
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He ( British Ambassador Mark Lyall Gran) dismissed Yanukovich’s letter to Putin as meaningless.

“We are talking about a former leader who abandoned his office, his capital and his country, whose corrupt governance brought his country to the brink of economic ruin, who suppressed protests against his government, leading to over 80 deaths,” Lyall Grant said.
 
Dracul said:
To put things into perspective a bit, the Russian threats originated long before the alleged "coup" was about to take place. From a guardian article (September 2013):

Ukraine's EU trade deal will be catastrophic, says Russia

[...]"We don't want to use any kind of blackmail. This is a question for the Ukrainian people,' said Glazyev [Economic Advisor of Putin]. "But legally, signing this agreement about association with EU, the Ukrainian government violates the treaty on strategic partnership and friendship with Russia." When this happened, he said, Russia could no longer guarantee Ukraine's status as a state and could possibly intervene if pro-Russian regions of the country appealed directly to Moscow."[...]
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you would need to source, this so I can see in full and in context of events
 
Dracul said:
Can't post any links yet, that's why the article headline is included.
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I found it:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/22/ukraine-european-union-trade-russia

Instead, he said, signing the agreement would make the default of Ukraine inevitable and Moscow would not offer any helping hand. "Russia is the main creditor of Ukraine. Only with customs union with Russia can Ukraine balance its trade," he said. Russia has already slapped import restrictions on certain Ukrainian products and Glazyev did not rule out further sanctions if the agreement was signed.
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^ nat gas debt

The Kremlin aide added that the political and social cost of EU integration could also be high, and allowed for the possibility of separatist movements springing up in the Russian-speaking east and south of Ukraine. He suggested that if Ukraine signed the agreement, Russia would consider the bilateral treaty that delineates the countries' borders to be void.

"We don't want to use any kind of blackmail. This is a question for the Ukrainian people," said Glazyev. "But legally, signing this agreement about association with EU, the Ukrainian government violates the treaty on strategic partnership and friendship with Russia." When this happened, he said, Russia could no longer guarantee Ukraine's status as a state and could possibly intervene if pro-Russian regions of the country appealed directly to Moscow.

"Signing this treaty will lead to political and social unrest," said the Kremlin aide. "The living standard will decline dramatically … there will be chaos."
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break it down. the separatists have been agitating for a time, but I'm sure there were contingency plans for when the actual war started. I'm not sure what treaty is referred to here:
the treaty on strategic partnership and friendship with Russia."
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but obviously any war on the Russian speaking separatist would be seen by Putin as a war on Russians
which is pretty much the official position at least at the beginning of the Donbass war.

I AM struck at just how shitty the European players were in that meeting!

Radek Sikorski, the Polish foreign minister, accused Russia of a "19th-century mode of operating towards neighbours", and said that it was only when Ukraine was properly allied with Europe that Russia would begin to respect the country.
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It's the same arrogance that gave us NATO expansion, and the meddling and treating the border state of Uk as European purview.
Ukraine has historic and territorial ties to Russia -not "Europe"
 
anatta said:
I found it:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/22/ukraine-european-union-trade-russia

^ nat gas debt

break it down. the separatists have been agitating for a time, but I'm sure there were contingency plans for when the actual war started. I'm not sure what treaty is referred to here: but obviously any war on the Russian speaking separatist would be seen by Putin as a war on Russians
which is pretty much the official position at least at the beginning of the Donbass war.

I AM struck at just how shitty the European players were in that meeting!

It's the same arrogance that gave us NATO expansion, and the meddling and treating the border state of Uk as European purview.
Ukraine has historic and territorial ties to Russia -not "Europe"
Click to expand...

...and there it is, finally

after all your lame observations, you say what's really on your mind

I AM struck at just how shitty the European players were in that meeting!

It's the same arrogance that gave us NATO expansion, and the meddling and treating the border state of Uk as European purview.
Ukraine has historic and territorial ties to Russia -not "Europe"

hate NATO much Dmitry?
 
reagansghost said:
...and there it is, finally

after all your lame observations, you say what's really on your mind

I AM struck at just how shitty the European players were in that meeting!

It's the same arrogance that gave us NATO expansion, and the meddling and treating the border state of Uk as European purview.
Ukraine has historic and territorial ties to Russia -not "Europe"

hate NATO much Dmitry?
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my gawd you are a repetitively loathsome ignorant troll.
~~
I don't "hate NATO". I hate what NATO expansion has done. It's made the world much less safe.
it's cost the USA a fortune of money we could spend on domestic needs - and it's made what should be a border state like Ukraine a flashpoint due to our meddling.

It's actually pushed Putin to become unified in Xi's sphere; which would have been unthinkable before NATO expansion
 
kudzu said:
Well I never heard of the islands or the Kerch straits.. What do the islands have to do with the Ukraine?
Click to expand...

anatta said:
my gawd you are a repetitively loathsome ignorant troll.
~~
I don't "hate NATO". I hate what NATO expansion has done. It's made the world much less safe.
it's cost the USA a fortune of money we could spend on domestic needs - and it's made what should be a border state like Ukraine a flashpoint due to our meddling.

It's actually pushed Putin to become unified in Xi's sphere; which would have been unthinkable before NATO expansion
Click to expand...

Where are all these dreary arseholes coming from anyway?
 
Bigdog said:
I think it's apparent that Pootie just added another "card" to his arsenal.

All of Europe (except a few) says FU to America. I say Pootie is Europe's problem now. Let's see what the EU globalists do in response to his aggressive actions.
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Well we sure know Don is impotent, see the Saudis.
 
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