Ignorance and the Bible

Cypress said:
Ehrman is citing sources that are 20 years old.

The thing about historical scholarship is that conclusions change as new information and methods become available

Study confirms widespread literacy in biblical-period kingdom of Judah​

"many of the inhabitants of the kingdom of Judah during that period were able to read and write, with literacy not reserved as an exclusive domain in the hands of a few royal scribes."​
​

I started to suspect that literacy in the Roman Empire wasn't just limited to 3 percent of the elites when I saw a lecture about graffiti discovered in ancient Roman cities, much of which was bawdy and even pornographic in nature, just what you would expect from working people, merchants, skilled laborers
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Galilee isn’t in Judah.

There was no military presence there.

Your reference is mundane OT, stuff. Transaction records and the such. In Hebrew, not Greek.

And being able to merely read and write doesn’t mean one could author a gospel. In Greek, no less.

Keep grasping
 
domer76 said:
Galilee isn’t in Judah.

There was no military presence there.

Your reference is mundane OT, stuff. Transaction records and the such. In Hebrew, not Greek.

And being able to merely read and write doesn’t mean one could author a gospel. In Greek, no less.

Keep grasping
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But this was news to you.
You were convinced people everywhere around the Mediterranean were massively illiterate

The Roman province of Galilee didn't exist in 600 BCE, the time period of the study. That's the first temple period.

If the Jews of Judah were widely literate in 600 BCE, you haven't explained why people would have been massively illiterate 30 miles north of Jerusalem in Samaria.

I've been suspicious of claims that only one to three percent of people were literate in antiquity ever since I heard about colloquial and bawdy graffiti in ancient Roman cities, and graffiti on the Egyptian great pyramids. I don't think the Pharaoh's and priests were working on the pyramids, obviously Egyptian workmen left graffiti on the pyramids. I doubt Roman aristocrats and senators were writing pornographic graffiti about prostitutes in the alleys of Pompeii.
 
Cypress said:
But this was news to you.
You were convinced people everywhere around the Mediterranean were massively illiterate

The Roman province of Galilee didn't exist in 600 BCE, the time period of the study. That's the first temple period.

If the Jews of Judah were widely literate in 600 BCE, you haven't explained why people would have been massively illiterate 30 miles north of Jerusalem in Samaria.

I've been suspicious of claims that only one to three percent of people were literate in antiquity ever since I heard about colloquial and bawdy graffiti in ancient Roman cities, and graffiti on the Egyptian great pyramids. I don't think the Pharaoh's and priests were working on the pyramids, obviously Egyptian workmen left graffiti on the pyramids. I doubt Roman aristocrats and senators were writing pornographic graffiti about prostitutes in the alleys of Pompeii.
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We can’t continue if you insist on twisting my words into something I never said. Are you actually reading the posts?

So, your reference is then irrelevant to literacy in Galilee 600 years later. Basic literacy in one’s own language and the ability to write a gospel in a DIFFERENT are not equivalent.

You failed again
 
Margot said:
The point on your head?
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No...the points I made earlier.

Here they are again...bolded and enlarged so you can see them:

When speaking of whether or not any gods exist..."believing" is merely blind guessing. "Faith" on the other hand, is merely insisting that one's blind guess is correct.

You folk are absolutely sure your blind guesses that a god exists...and that you know what pleases that god and what offends it. Atheists are absolutely sure that their blind guesses that no gods exist (or that it is more likely that no gods exist than that at least one god does exist).

You and those who guess as you do MAY be correct. The atheists MAY be correct.

I do not know which it is...and I would rather not make a blind guess about it.
 
Ross Dolan said:
No...the points I made earlier.

Here they are again...bolded and enlarged so you can see them:

When speaking of whether or not any gods exist..."believing" is merely blind guessing. "Faith" on the other hand, is merely insisting that one's blind guess is correct.

You folk are absolutely sure your blind guesses that a god exists...and that you know what pleases that god and what offends it. Atheists are absolutely sure that their blind guesses that no gods exist (or that it is more likely that no gods exist than that at least one god does exist).

You and those who guess as you do MAY be correct. The atheists MAY be correct.

I do not know which it is...and I would rather not make a blind guess about it.
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Asked answered
 
domer76 said:
We can’t continue if you insist on twisting my words into something I never said. Are you actually reading the posts?

So, your reference is then irrelevant to literacy in Galilee 600 years later. Basic literacy in one’s own language and the ability to write a gospel in a DIFFERENT are not equivalent.

You failed again
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Explain what was twisted in that post.

I used to be like you, and was dogmatic and unyielding in wanting to believe literacy in the Roman Empire was 1 to 3 percent. I think it was because I had an agenda to discredit and debunk everything about the New Testament.

But if newer data and scholarship are seriously questioning this estimate, I have to be open to changing my mind.

None of the gospels were written in high literary Greek. They are written in a simple Koine Greek. We are not talking about writers like Cicero or Virgil here.

I don't have any serious doubts that Paul and the physician Luke could competently write in Greek.

I don't think the customs official and apostle Matthew wrote a gospel in Greek. I do take seriously the claim of first century Bishop Pappias that Mathew wrote a testimonials in his native Aramaic. A simple testimonial in Aramaic seems possible for a customs agent. It appears his testimony in Aramaic was later edited and translated into Greek by others as the gospel of Matthew.

We don't know enough about Mark's background to say much about his ability to write, but the story is that he was Peter's secretary. Would anyone hire an illiterate and uneducated secretary?

Early Church Bishops attest that John is the author of his gospel, but this strikes me as unlikely, wasn't he a fisherman?
 
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Margot said:
Asked answered! Second verse same as the first
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YES IT HAS BEEN ASKED...SEVERAL TIMES.

NOT ANSWERED.

SEE MY POSTS #1194 & 1216.

Never really answered...just avoided or given short-shrift...with YOU deciding what a Christian is.

I am saying your "beliefs" on this issue are merely BLIND GUESSES about the REALITY of existence.

Tell me how you know the stuff you spout as being the truth rather than a guess.

I am saying your "faith" is merely your insistence that your blind guesses are correct.

Tell me how you know the "faith" you have in your blind guesses are "the truth."

Actually discuss the issue rather than do what the atheists do in avoidance.
 
Cypress said:
....I've been suspicious of claims that only one to three percent of people were literate in antiquity ever since I heard about colloquial and bawdy graffiti in ancient Roman cities, and graffiti on the Egyptian great pyramids. I don't think the Pharaoh's and priests were working on the pyramids, obviously Egyptian workmen left graffiti on the pyramids. I doubt Roman aristocrats and senators were writing pornographic graffiti about prostitutes in the alleys of Pompeii.
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1 to 3 people out of a hundred is all it takes to write graffiti over hundreds of years.

3000 people means up to 90 asshole writing graffiti. Probably the bosses or engineers. Who'd report them? Jus' sayin'. LOL
 
Cypress said:
Explain what was twisted in that post.

I used to be like you, and was dogmatic and unyielding in wanting to believe literacy in the Roman Empire was 1 to 3 percent. I think it was because I had an agenda to discredit and debunk everything about the New Testament.

But if newer data and scholarship are seriously questioning this estimate, I have to be open to changing my mind.

None of the gospels were written in high literary Greek. They are written in a simple Koine Greek. We are not talking about writers like Cicero or Virgil here.

I don't have any serious doubts that Paul and the physician Luke could competently write in Greek.

I don't think the customs official and apostle Matthew wrote a gospel in Greek. I do take seriously the claim of first century Bishop Pappias that Mathew wrote a testimonials in his native Aramaic. A simple testimonial in Aramaic seems possible for a customs agent. It appears his testimony in Aramaic was later edited and translated into Greek by others as the gospel of Matthew.

We don't know enough about Mark's background to say much about his ability to write, but the story is that he was Peter's secretary. Would anyone hire an illiterate and uneducated secretary?

Early Church Bishops attest that John is the author of his gospel, but this strikes me as unlikely, wasn't he a fisherman?
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If you used to be like me, what happened? Traumatic brain injury?

I never said anything about Mediterranean illiteracy. Only Galilee in the first century. Not Judah 600 years earlier. I also never said “Roman Empire”. You keep inserting superfluous bullshit.

Paul was educated and wrote his stuff. Nobody knows who wrote the gospels. Again.

The only thing you know about Pappias is some confusing bullshit written about him in the 4th century.

“The story is….” Yep, it sure is.
 
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