If God were real, you wouldn’t need a book

[Ross Dolan]

Not in a form that needs to be held in place by a physical structure.

I deny the claims made by the writers.

Harry Potter is fictional just as God's are.

They did. Priests, pastors, etc will say otherwise, for reasons that are obvious, but they did.

So you can assert this categorically?

You know that gods are fictional?

You know that there are no gods?

Who woulda thunk it!

 

[Cypress]

You're starting the the assumption that these things couldn't happen naturally, even though there's no reason they couldn't, and plugging in 'god' to explain it. That's it..

"Anything" is possible.
The question has always been, what is the most reasonable explanation?

I provided an extensive enumeration of logical reasoning supporting an inference to the best explanation.

I am still waiting for you to explain specifically why it would be more rational to believe that complex matter, mathematical rationality, lawful organization, and fine tuning would be caused by the irrational, by purely inanimate physical reasons, and by random chance

 

[Monad Portal]

It wasn't known then.

As long as you ignore the fact that either one of us could improve it with no effort. Let's take the 10 Commandments. Maybe God could not have 30% of them about himself and have one that said "Don't rape people" or "Don't sexually assault or abuse children" or "Don't enslave people".

The Bible sounds nothing like the direction, instruction and insight of a wise, all-knowing being and everything like the ramblings of uneducated, Iron Age men.


He's described as wrathful in his own book.

He's not psychotic? Have you heard of, among other things, the Passover?

Yes, based on evidence.

yaldabaoth.

Yaldabaoth​

Creator of the physical world in Gnosticism
Yaldabaoth, otherwise known as Jaldabaoth or Ialdabaoth, is a malevolent god and demiurge according to various Gnostic sects, represented sometimes as a theriomorphic, lion-headed serpent. He is identified as a false god who keeps souls trapped in physical bodies, imprisoned in the material universe.

 

[Monad Portal]

Cathar Power!

Land of Cath.

 

[gfm7175]

This is another one where Catholics have the opposite view;

Right.

they believe that personal effort is all that matters, and that a good person who does good deeds but who has never had faith in Jesus will still go to heaven.

I've found Catholicism to hold a number of beliefs that just aren't Biblical. A pathway to heaven through any sort of personal effort (good works) simply doesn't exist. It is the work of Jesus Christ (living a perfect/sinless life, suffering death on a cross, and resurrecting back to life three days later) that opened up a pathway to heaven, not anything else that anyone else has ever done.

John 14:6 states, and this is Jesus speaking: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me". Ephesians 2:8-10 states: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Matthew 7:21-23 states, and this is Jesus speaking again: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

With that being said, there IS something that a number of other Christians could learn from Catholics, and that's that good works are also an important part of Christian life (that good works are NOT meaningless, or unnecessary, or able to be overlooked, simply because they "don't result in salvation").

The Parable of the Good Atheist​

One day gfm7175 and IBDaMann were sharing an Uber when a terrible traffic accident took their lives and placed them before the righteous judgement of God. gfm7175 noticed that he was standing in a long line that contained many people he knew, even a few from his church, and the line was moving rather quickly, with everybody seemingly getting waved on in. As he looked to his left, he saw that IBDaMann was in a line with a lot of people he did not recognize, and that line was moving quickly as well. gfm7175 remarked "Hey, IBDaMann, you aren't supposed to be here. You were an atheist; you can't get in here." IBDaMann answered "Not in that line, I can't. That's why I'm in the Catholic line. Their policy is that
God will render to every man according to his deeds!" , and I have already been declared a "good" athesit. See? I already got my voucher. " IBDaMann then pointed to the Catholic banner that read "Romans 2:7 - To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:" IBDaMann then suggested to gfm7175 that he not be afraid to come to him for some good deeds.

Ha! An entertaining parable. However, "good deeds" alone won't cut it. It is having faith in the gracious work of Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. Jesus says that there's no other way to eternal life except through him, regardless of what the "Catholic line" (as you dubbed it) may believe.

 

[gfm7175]

Question: would it be OK if the God of the Bible were imperfectly loving? How about just "loving"?

It's not possible for God to be imperfectly loving; that's not a part of his nature.

I'm going to call boooooolsch't. There are some psalms that could be removed and nobody would bitch.

Ha! Or maybe some genealogy information, or at least the portion of the Book of Numbers that has "boring" census information.

However, I don't think all such information is there just for the sake of being there.

 

[Monad Portal]

It's not possible for God to be imperfectly loving; that's not a part of his nature.

Ha! Or maybe some genealogy information, or at least the portion of the Book of Numbers that has "boring" census information.

However, I don't think all such information is there just for the sake of being there.

actually he admitted to being wrathful and promised to not flood the world again.

 

[IBDaMann]

You haven't yet presented any legitimate physicists

Physicists are people, not science. All you have shown is that people can lie. You have not produced a single quark or neutrino. You are the one demanding everyone believe that inobservable, undetectable, theoretical things were somehow discovered, and when asked how this discovery of the inobservable somehow happened, you launch into preemtive attacks and accusations.

Don't you think that if you are going to claim that something was discovered that you would be able to explain the "how" better than merely chanting diversions?

who agree with you that quarks and neutrinos don't really exist

You haven't produced a single physicist who has ever produced a single quark or neutrino. It appears that you are gullible regarding lies that happen to exist on the internet.

and were fabrications to get more grant money.

They got the grant money, yes? No quarks or neutrinos were ever produced. I think this one is open-and-shut.

The conspiracy of silence can't be global,

What makes you think that anyone has ever produced either a quark or a neutrino?

there have to be retired physicists who would blow the lid off this conspiracy.

There's no lid to blow. It's not like someone has tried to produce counterfeit quarks or neutrinos. No quarks or neutrinos have ever been produced, or even observed, by anyone.

 

[gfm7175]

Just means killing all the first born children in an entire country, aka Passover?

Did you know that Pharaoh and the Egyptians were killing off all of the Israelite baby boys at the time? (as a means of population suppression) ... Thus, it's only fair that THEY likewise suffered their firstborn boys being killed off.

Plus, before that judgement fell upon them, they were given a number of opportunities to avoid that fate (such as marking their doorposts with the blood of a lamb, and choosing to listen to God, via releasing the Israelites from slavery, instead of ignoring the nine previous warnings).

Per the Bible, if Jesus didn't come back to life after three days, Christianity doesn't exist.

Correct. Jesus' resurrection is absolutely vital to the Christian faith.

 

[gfm7175]

actually he admitted to being wrathful

Is wrath inherently bad?

and promised to not flood the world again.

Right. No more global floods. That was a "one and done" situation. That's what a rainbow signifies (God's covenant to never flood the entire Earth again).

 

[Cypress]

Physicists are people, not science. All you have shown is that people can lie. You have not produced a single quark or neutrino. You are the one demanding everyone believe that inobservable, undetectable, theoretical things were somehow discovered, and when asked how this discovery of the inobservable somehow happened, you launch into preemtive attacks and accusations.

Don't you think that if you are going to claim that something was discovered that you would be able to explain the "how" better than merely chanting diversions?


You haven't produced a single physicist who has ever produced a single quark or neutrino. It appears that you are gullible regarding lies that happen to exist on the internet.


They got the grant money, yes? No quarks or neutrinos were ever produced. I think this one is open-and-shut.


What makes you think that anyone has ever produced either a quark or a neutrino?


There's no lid to blow. It's not like someone has tried to produce counterfeit quarks or neutrinos. No quarks or neutrinos have ever been produced, or even observed, by anyone.

^^ Still not providing a link to any reputable physicists who agree quarks were fabricated to get grant money.

 

[Monad Portal]

Is wrath inherently bad?

it can be overkill sometimes.

Right. No more global floods. That was a "one and done" situation. That's what a rainbow signifies (God's covenant to never flood the entire Earth again).

so why do you think its all this gay shit then?

 

[ZenMode]

Did you know that Pharaoh and the Egyptians were killing off all of the Israelite baby boys at the time? (as a means of population suppression) ... Thus, it's only fair that THEY likewise suffered their firstborn boys being killed off.

Link?

Plus, before that judgement fell upon them, they were given a number of opportunities to avoid that fate (such as marking their doorposts with the blood of a lamb, and choosing to listen to God, via releasing the Israelites from slavery, instead of ignoring the nine previous warnings).

So, you, as a parent, give your kids a "number of opportunities" to listen to you... then you kill 'em?

 

[ZenMode]

I provided an extensive enumeration of logical reasoning supporting an inference to the best explanation.

You provided a list of things you don't understand how they happened and then explained them via God.

 

[ZenMode]

So you can assert this categorically?

You know that gods are fictional?

You know that there are no gods?

Who woulda thunk it!

I know that, according to the 'stories', gods were visible and active in the ancient world and have completely vanished sometime between then and now and without significant evidence now, there's no valid reason to believe they exist.

Any time anyone of of them wants to prove me wrong, they know where I am.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I'm not falling for "you can't prove it doesn't exist" schtick. If that worked, we should all believe in Russell's Teapot.

I wanna see my pool guy part the waters with a pool brush.

 

[Into the Night]

shut your face, mommy's disgrace.

No. You cannot make anyone shut up. You are a nothing.

 

[Into the Night]

People dont stay moronic forever.

Oh? You think intelligence just magickally comes by itself?

 

[Cypress]

You see it all the time in the animal world!!

No, animals do not have a universal moral obligation or law.
Altruism and mutually advantageous cooperation virtually always is limited to the family, to the pack, the troop, the pride, the tribe, to the social group.

Altruism and social cooperation in the family and in the pack are baked into Darwinian evolution, is based on the idea of reciprocity, and is not mysterious scientifically at all.

But you have never seen a lion pride bring food to a rival pride. You've never seen chimpanzees collect bananas to graciously donate to a rival chimp troop.

Humans almost uniquely can universalize the idea of self sacrifice for the welfare of others, including towards complete strangers, rivals, even enemies. It's possible there are isolated cases of a few of the higher sentient mammals practicing something similar this, like dolphins or elephants.

The simple fact is you know very clearly and very intuitively that the concept of morality does not apply to animals. When a male deer forcibly copulates with a female deer you never would call it rape. When a male lion kills the cubs of a rival male you would never call it murder.

 

[Into the Night]

I know that, according to the 'stories', gods were visible and active in the ancient world and have completely vanished sometime between then and now and without significant evidence now, there's no valid reason to believe they exist.

God has not vanished, Void.

Any time anyone of of them wants to prove me wrong, they know where I am.

God does not rule by compulsion, Void. That's Satan's council.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I'm not falling for "you can't prove it doesn't exist" schtick. If that worked, we should all believe in Russell's Teapot.

You cannot make evidence just disappear, Void.

I wanna see my pool guy part the waters with a pool brush.

Why?

 

[Monad Portal]

I will gladly obey and I will stfu.