Fucking Pig Feds, This story has me absolutely disgusted.

apple0154 said:
For anyone to suggest the Federal Government is forbidden to take action when 45,000 citizens are needlessly dying every year is a jackass. If the government has a right to accomplish something it also has the right to take the necessary action to accomplish it and it is clear the government has a right to protect the lives of the citizens. Spin it any way you want.
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Governments do not have rights. People have rights. Governments have only power.
 
SmarterthanYou said:
you think being called a jackass is gonna bother me, especially when you know i'm right? LOL!!! you're the one doing the spinning, btw. you know it, I know it, and everyone else knows it except for your america hating liberal friends.
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If you really wants to see how his logic goes into spin cycle; ask him to prove his assertion of 45,000 and then actually take a look at what he tries to pass off as "proof.
 
Althea said:
I don't see the difference between 'physical dependence', and 'addiction'?

It may be semantics, but if you are only taking enough opiate to block the pain, it doesn't matter if you get high or not. You are taking the meds every day if your pain is chronic.

If you stop taking the medication, you will most definitely suffer other symptoms besides the return of the pain.
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Here is the best definition I have found.

(Excerpt) Q: What is the difference between being addicted and being dependent?

A: Fear of addiction has prevented many physicians from prescribing needed pain relief and many patients from controlling their pain and reclaiming their lives.

Pain doctors have known for years that taking opioids over long periods of time for medical reasons does not have to lead to addiction. More than a decade ago, neurologist Russell Portenoy, who was most recently President of the American Pain Society, reviewed studies of almost 25,000 cancer patients. Most of those patients had been on opioid therapy for many years. Of the whole group, very few showed any signs of drug abuse, drug craving, or drug-seeking behavior.

Every one of these cancer patients was dependent on their medication. However, their physical needs were worlds away from addiction. Addiction is a biological and psychological condition that compels a person to satisfy their need for a particular stimulus and to keep satisfying it, no matter what.

It is a compulsive behavior that demands more and more drugs, regardless of the consequences that lead to dysfunction. A person who is addicted to opioids has a disease that undermines optimal function and drives one to compulsively use a drug, despite the negative consequences.

The pain patient who is effectively treated with opioids finds life restored-even if he is dependent on them. With the pain muted by stable and steady controlled use of long-acting opioids, a patient can reclaim his life, go back to work, return to family life, and pursue favorite pastimes. Dependence is a physical state that occurs when the lack of a drug causes the body to have a reaction. Physical dependence is solely a physical state indicating that the body has grown so adapted to having the drug present that sudden removal of it will lead to negative consequences such as a withdrawal reaction. This can occur with almost any kind of drug.

A good example of dependence is a heavy coffee drinker's use of caffeine. If you are used to drinking several cups of coffee each day, you soon learn about physical dependence when you miss a day or two. This does not mean you are addicted to the caffeine; it only means your body is surprised not to see what it has come to expect.

In the case of opioids, a certain amount taken every day fills the glass, and no more may be needed or desired. If the medication is removed, the consequences are physical (sweating, running nose, diarrhea, racing heart, or nausea), not psychological.

As any diabetic will testify about insulin, or any heart patient will testify about blood pressure medication, dependence is not necessarily indicative of addiction or drug abuse. In fact, regular use of these medications may be essential for good health.

The difference between a patient with opioid addiction and a patient who is dependent on opioids for chronic pain is simple. The opioid-dependent patient with chronic pain has improved function with his use of the drugs and the patient with opioid addiction does not.(End)
http://health.howstuffworks.com/dis...ddiction-v-dependence-on-pain-medications.htm
 
SmarterthanYou said:
you think being called a jackass is gonna bother me, especially when you know i'm right? LOL!!! you're the one doing the spinning, btw. you know it, I know it, and everyone else knows it except for your america hating liberal friends.
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What spin, that the government has a vested interest in preventing the unnecessary deaths of citizens? The Repubs want a Congressional hearing into the death of four citizens in a foreign country half way around the world but don't give a damn about the 45,000 who die every year, right here, in the USA. Spin that.
 
apple0154 said:
Here is the best definition I have found.

(Excerpt) Q: What is the difference between being addicted and being dependent?

A: Fear of addiction has prevented many physicians from prescribing needed pain relief and many patients from controlling their pain and reclaiming their lives.

Pain doctors have known for years that taking opioids over long periods of time for medical reasons does not have to lead to addiction. More than a decade ago, neurologist Russell Portenoy, who was most recently President of the American Pain Society, reviewed studies of almost 25,000 cancer patients. Most of those patients had been on opioid therapy for many years. Of the whole group, very few showed any signs of drug abuse, drug craving, or drug-seeking behavior.

Every one of these cancer patients was dependent on their medication. However, their physical needs were worlds away from addiction. Addiction is a biological and psychological condition that compels a person to satisfy their need for a particular stimulus and to keep satisfying it, no matter what.

It is a compulsive behavior that demands more and more drugs, regardless of the consequences that lead to dysfunction. A person who is addicted to opioids has a disease that undermines optimal function and drives one to compulsively use a drug, despite the negative consequences.

The pain patient who is effectively treated with opioids finds life restored-even if he is dependent on them. With the pain muted by stable and steady controlled use of long-acting opioids, a patient can reclaim his life, go back to work, return to family life, and pursue favorite pastimes. Dependence is a physical state that occurs when the lack of a drug causes the body to have a reaction. Physical dependence is solely a physical state indicating that the body has grown so adapted to having the drug present that sudden removal of it will lead to negative consequences such as a withdrawal reaction. This can occur with almost any kind of drug.

A good example of dependence is a heavy coffee drinker's use of caffeine. If you are used to drinking several cups of coffee each day, you soon learn about physical dependence when you miss a day or two. This does not mean you are addicted to the caffeine; it only means your body is surprised not to see what it has come to expect.

In the case of opioids, a certain amount taken every day fills the glass, and no more may be needed or desired. If the medication is removed, the consequences are physical (sweating, running nose, diarrhea, racing heart, or nausea), not psychological.

As any diabetic will testify about insulin, or any heart patient will testify about blood pressure medication, dependence is not necessarily indicative of addiction or drug abuse. In fact, regular use of these medications may be essential for good health.

The difference between a patient with opioid addiction and a patient who is dependent on opioids for chronic pain is simple. The opioid-dependent patient with chronic pain has improved function with his use of the drugs and the patient with opioid addiction does not.(End)
http://health.howstuffworks.com/dis...ddiction-v-dependence-on-pain-medications.htm
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Well, I'll grant you the semantics explained above. Kind of like explaining the difference between 'evolution', and 'natural selection'.

In either case re. addiction, the enlarged text above explains my concern. Whether addicted, or dependent, removal of the drug causes the same physical reaction. Now there might be debate as to whether it causes mental issues in the 'dependent' person.
 
To my original point aimed at ILA...who seems to think that the Tylenol in the meds is worse than the opioids....you will most definitely suffer side effects once you stop long term opioid use.
 
apple0154 said:
What spin, that the government has a vested interest in preventing the unnecessary deaths of citizens? The Repubs want a Congressional hearing into the death of four citizens in a foreign country half way around the world but don't give a damn about the 45,000 who die every year, right here, in the USA. Spin that.
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this is how you fail. you expect logic and sanity from partisan politics.
 
Althea said:
To my original point aimed at ILA...who seems to think that the Tylenol in the meds is worse than the opioids....you will most definitely suffer side effects once you stop long term opioid use.
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but you won't die from withdrawl, or get liver damage from opioids.
You might OD.

Anyways - this was covered long ago ( for those whom didn't see it)
http://www.justplainpolitics.com/sh...ic-(Harborside)-under-RICO-filing-by-CA.-USDA

Now things have changed - we might be seeing "bottom up federalism" - or the old adage "The states are the laboratory of change"

A couple of things has to happen.
1. fire Leonhart (DEA chief -Bush left over)
2.Fed's - lay off the Co. law, and since the staes will not arrest for recreational use - that does put a damper on Fed'l enforcement.
3. The problem - Obama doesn't have to face re-election, and Congress is on a permanent "out to lunch" mode.

I'm a bit more optimistic this go-round, if we can get the Fed's to lay off state law for recreational use, that NORMALizes it.

eventually we might get recreation use, legit. But it's still a long slog.
 
cannabis said:
i don't know if i would go so far as to say the plant has won, but the war has certainly not succeeded. i don't think the thousands, make hundreds of thousands in prison or jail for possession or distribution of the plant would say the plant has won. when prohibition of marijuana takes places, just like alcohol prohibition ended, then will the plant have won.

more importantly, the people, we the people, will win.
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maybe. there are a lot of special interests to contend with/ Big Pharma ( Sativex) /SCOTUS ( Gonzalez v Raich) / DEA ( their power is unchecked, they are more powerful the the FBI -worldwide offices / Law Enforcement ( what's gonna replace all that seizure money).

Obama & the USD Atty's ( see link above "weed wars" for details). Still. there is "Hope for Change" this go 'round.
I wouldn't bet either way, the good news is the American people themselves are sick of this idiocy.

Time will tell -but those in prision??? Fuck 'em, they're gonna rot there - there won't be any amnesty/rollback on their sentencing
 
apple0154 said:
What spin, that the government has a vested interest in preventing the unnecessary deaths of citizens? The Repubs want a Congressional hearing into the death of four citizens in a foreign country half way around the world but don't give a damn about the 45,000 who die every year, right here, in the USA. Spin that.
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Well, one is within the power of government, I.E. protecting the nation from foreign threats, and the other does NOT fall within the power of government.
 
Althea said:
Well, I'll grant you the semantics explained above. Kind of like explaining the difference between 'evolution', and 'natural selection'.

In either case re. addiction, the enlarged text above explains my concern. Whether addicted, or dependent, removal of the drug causes the same physical reaction. Now there might be debate as to whether it causes mental issues in the 'dependent' person.
Click to expand...

Semantics? Perhaps re-read my post. The difference was explained by the coffee example. While people experience a physical dependence one does not develop an addiction to coffee.

As to your highlighted text you conveniently forgot the preceeding word "sudden" as in "sudden removal of it will lead to negative consequences such as a withdrawal reaction." Furthermore, that statement was immediately followed by, "This can occur with almost any kind of drug."

Lastly, insulin was given as an example of physical dependence. I doubt anyone becomes "addicted" to insulin.

It's not a matter of semantics. I think the last line in the article makes the difference between dependence and addiction readily apparent. "The opioid-dependent patient with chronic pain has improved function with his use of the drugs and the patient with opioid addiction does not." Doesn't the opioid-dependent patient sound exactly like the insulin-dependent individual?

I dealt with pain relieving drugs after an accident so you can see the reason for my interest/concern/involvement.
 
apple0154 said:
Semantics? Perhaps re-read my post. The difference was explained by the coffee example. While people experience a physical dependence one does not develop an addiction to coffee.

As to your highlighted text you conveniently forgot the preceeding word "sudden" as in "sudden removal of it will lead to negative consequences such as a withdrawal reaction." Furthermore, that statement was immediately followed by, "This can occur with almost any kind of drug."

Lastly, insulin was given as an example of physical dependence. I doubt anyone becomes "addicted" to insulin.

It's not a matter of semantics. I think the last line in the article makes the difference between dependence and addiction readily apparent. "The opioid-dependent patient with chronic pain has improved function with his use of the drugs and the patient with opioid addiction does not." Doesn't the opioid-dependent patient sound exactly like the insulin-dependent individual?

I dealt with pain relieving drugs after an accident so you can see the reason for my interest/concern/involvement.
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You know what apple? All your wonderful scientific fluffery sounds great, but it is just bullshit. Try not to be so gullible.

I can't tell you how many people I know (junkies) who started on 'scripts.

You know what the most f'ed up part is? When they can't get the hydrocodone they switch to heroin in a heartbeat.
 
vices= a pesky desire to use -say a gambler who spends some of his paycheck each week -but not enough to cause any problem
habits = now you're gambling everyday
habituation= you can't wait for the lottery -you buy scratch offs, you start to spend way too much
dependency= WHERE ARE THE DAMN LOTTO TICKETS!!! LET ME THRU!! It's almost time for the drawing
addiction= bet the farm, on a whim -all you care about is the action, not necessarily winning.
 
Rune said:
You know what apple? All your wonderful scientific fluffery sounds great, but it is just bullshit. Try not to be so gullible.

I can't tell you how many people I know (junkies) who started on 'scripts.You know what the most f'ed up part is? When they can't get the hydrocodone they switch to heroin in a heartbeat.
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because they got addicted to the opiates.

Casual use= you get buzzed on the weekends
habituation = you want to smoke weed, dammit i need a buzz- as soon as I can get thru my work
dependency= i need a buzz to get moving, or an "eye opener" ( booze) to make it to work, maybe i'll keep a bottle in my drawer. Liquid lunch
addiction= full blown physical craving, not just mental obsession, but physical need, or you start to with drawl - you got a monkey on your back
 
Rune said:
Yes, it was pretty stupid of apple to expect a logical response from you after he decimated your stance. Been there, done that.

About the same as besting Dixie.
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decimated my stance? how so? by projecting his own cowardice and fear? by ignoring the motivations of millions of others in this country? oh yeah, decimation for sure. That's how YOU end up looking so stupid all the time.
 
SmarterthanYou said:
decimated my stance? how so? by projecting his own cowardice and fear? by ignoring the motivations of millions of others in this country? oh yeah, decimation for sure. That's how YOU end up looking so stupid all the time.
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If you so clearly are correct, you should have little trouble refuting his points.
 
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