FACT CHECK: No 'death panel' in health care bill

This may come as a surprise to you but I don't really give a rats ass about your debunks. I've already seen what you have and you claiming something to be the truth does not make it so.

Again you moron, it is NOT what I claim... it is what the experts have proven. You simply cling to your conspiracy nut websites and refuse to look at the facts.

You continue to make idiotic comments like 'do use guys think fire alone brought down a buildin'? you ignore all the other factors that went into the collapse so that you can believe in your idiotic fantasy.

I know you don't give a rats ass about it, because if you did, you would realize what a fool you have been.... or should I say a stooge?
 
Tell me genius, what is the difference between calling people from the middle east 'cavemen' and using a derogatory phrase like 'jungle bunny' in reference to a black man? They are both meant to not only insult, but to demean as well.

Oh, wait, you meant 'cavemen' as a complimentary term?

No, wait, I forgot, there is no racism on the left... because YOU said so.

Idiot.

Well mr dummy .. not all middle east people live in caves. Is that news to you?

I wasn't talking about middle eastern people mr dummy, I was SPECIFICALLY talking about the supposed hijackers.

The supposed hijackers lived in caves to hide. Is that news to you?

Calling them cavemen acknowledges that they did not have the capability nor capacity to gather sophisticated information such the knowledge that the US was executing 5 wargames at the exact same time of their supposed planned attack.

What lluck, eh

Now reach around the other side of your ass and pull off another racist slogan if it makes you fell better mr dummy.

:0)
 
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Again you moron, it is NOT what I claim... it is what the experts have proven. You simply cling to your conspiracy nut websites and refuse to look at the facts.

You continue to make idiotic comments like 'do use guys think fire alone brought down a buildin'? you ignore all the other factors that went into the collapse so that you can believe in your idiotic fantasy.

I know you don't give a rats ass about it, because if you did, you would realize what a fool you have been.... or should I say a stooge?

I have lots of experts that believe the exact same thing that I do.

What makes your experts more credible than mine?

Bowman isn't credible?

Please save your fairy-tale for someone else.
 
Well mr dummy .. not all middle east people live in caves. Is that news to you?

I wasn't talking about middle eastern people mr dummy, I was SPECIFICALLY talking about the supposed hijackers.

The supposed hijackers lived in caves to hide. Is that news to you?

Calling them cavemen acknowledges that they did not have the capability nor capacity to gather sophisticated information such the knowledge that the US was executing 5 wargames at the exact same time of their supposed planned attack.

What lluck, eh

Now reach around the other side of your ass and pull off another racist slogan if it makes you fell better mr dummy.

:0)

hey dipshit... prior to 9/11 they were living in the open in Afghanistan. They were not living in caves. The fact that you are dumb enough (or is it racist?) to believe that they don't have the capability to gather information shows that you should not be involved in an adult conversation.

You fucking ignorant hack. Go sip some more of your kool-aid.

as for your caveman comment, nice attempt to hide your racism... but sorry, it was plain for all to see.
 
I have lots of experts that believe the exact same thing that I do.

What makes your experts more credible than mine?

Bowman isn't credible?

Please save your fairy-tale for someone else.

Who Are the Scholars for 9/11 Truth?


As Pat and I get further into this subject, we will inevitably get into people not directly involved in the movie, but those that feed the frenzy of conspiratorial theory. One such organization is the "Scholars for 9/11 Truth", who pop up with increasing frequency as some type of "expert" authority for the 9/11 "truth" movement. Sort of a Jedi Council for conspiracy nutbars. So I decided to look into them further, and see just how authoritative they are.

A look at their website reveals they are certainly full of themselves. Boldfaced headlines scream out the word, "experts" at every turn:

XPERTS CLAIM OFFICIAL 9/11 STORY IS A HOAX

Scholars for 9/11 Truth call for verification and publication by an international consortium.

Duluth, MN (PRWEB)
January 30, 2006 -- A group of distinguished experts and scholars, including Robert M. Bowman, James H. Fetzer, Wayne Madsen, John McMurtry, Morgan Reynolds, and Andreas von Buelow, have concluded that senior government officials have covered up crucial facts about what really happened on 9/11.

Their most famous member, and co-founder, is Steven Jones, a physicist at Brigham Young University. He has become famous for publishing a paper on the WTC collapse. Thus far this paper though, has only been reviewed, not in a journal on physics, or structural engineering, but in a Marxist journal of political economy. BYU itself has rejected his work. Dr. Jones primary research has been, not in structural engineering or the reaction of metals to heat, but in cold fusion, which even in the physics community is regarded as bordering on alchemy. Even more bizarrely, his other famous published work was one right out of the World Weekly News, claiming that Jesus visited Central America based on ancient Indian artwork.

So maybe the "scholars" have other "experts" from whom Dr. Jones (Indiana?) is relying on, so I decided to look over their list of "full members" described here as:




Currently, S9/11T has four categories of members: full members (FM), who have or have had academic appointments or the equivalent;


I compiled the list of members and categorized them by specialty, position and institution, which actually was rather difficult. Oddly enough many of the members don't list their qualifications or university, which is quite strange, since every professor I have ever met is more than happy to go on for hours about their academic credentials.

I came up with a list of 76 members, expecting it to be full of Ivy League engineers and distinguished Middle Eastern scholars, experts bent on proving that the US government, and not Osama bin Laden attacked the World Trade Centers. I was wrong.

Out of the 76 "experts" the most common academic discipline was philosophy, with 9 members, including a co-founder. Since 7 members did not even list an academic discipline, this was 1/7 of their credentialed membership. English/literature and psychology came in next with 5 members each. Even theology and "humanities" came in with 4 and 3 members respectively. Among actual scientific fields, physics was way in front, with 5 members, including the aforementioned Dr. Jones. I am not sure as to their academic credentials though, at least one of the "physicists", Jeffrey Farrer, isn't even a professor, he is a lab manager at BYU. One has to wonder whether Steven Jones' janitor is also listed as an associate member?

So how many engineers do they have? Out of the 76, a grand total of 2. Jean-Pierre Petit, a French aeronautical engineer, who despite the obvious handicap of being French actually seems to have a relevant qualification. Curiously enough though, he doesn't seem to have written a single word on 9/11. He has written though, on a mysterious plot by the US military to bomb Jupiter with anti-matter weapons!

The second engineer is Judy Wood, who has been mentioned in the comments here for her bizarre billiard ball from the top of the World Trade Center theory. OK, Ms. Wood is an actual Mechanical Engineer at Clemson, but thus far her work has been primarily focused on the stresses of dentistry. A fascinating field no doubt, but hardly relevant to planes crashing into buildings.

So how many structural engineers are listed? Absolutely zero. How many experts in Middle Eastern studies, or the Arabic language? Also zero. But they do have a professor of social work!

So I thought, maybe I am being too narrow minded? Maybe these are just America's best and brightest minds, even if they are working out of their fields of specialty. Noam Chomsky at least, regardless of what you think of his kooky politics, is a respected professor of linguistics at MIT. So I looked up this list of the top 20 universities in the world (17 located in the US) from the Economist, expecting to find the schools of our distinguished scholars to be well represented on it.

Wrong. A total of one professor, Kevin Barrett, a Professor of Folk Lore at the University of Wisconsin-Madison was represented.

Total number of "scholars" from the Ivy League, zero. Total number of "scholars" from Tunxcis Community College, one. "

Are the above you experts? Because I seem to recall you referring to Jones and Bowman before....
 
Who Are the Scholars for 9/11 Truth?


As Pat and I get further into this subject, we will inevitably get into people not directly involved in the movie, but those that feed the frenzy of conspiratorial theory. One such organization is the "Scholars for 9/11 Truth", who pop up with increasing frequency as some type of "expert" authority for the 9/11 "truth" movement. Sort of a Jedi Council for conspiracy nutbars. So I decided to look into them further, and see just how authoritative they are.

A look at their website reveals they are certainly full of themselves. Boldfaced headlines scream out the word, "experts" at every turn:

XPERTS CLAIM OFFICIAL 9/11 STORY IS A HOAX

Scholars for 9/11 Truth call for verification and publication by an international consortium.

Duluth, MN (PRWEB)
January 30, 2006 -- A group of distinguished experts and scholars, including Robert M. Bowman, James H. Fetzer, Wayne Madsen, John McMurtry, Morgan Reynolds, and Andreas von Buelow, have concluded that senior government officials have covered up crucial facts about what really happened on 9/11.

Their most famous member, and co-founder, is Steven Jones, a physicist at Brigham Young University. He has become famous for publishing a paper on the WTC collapse. Thus far this paper though, has only been reviewed, not in a journal on physics, or structural engineering, but in a Marxist journal of political economy. BYU itself has rejected his work. Dr. Jones primary research has been, not in structural engineering or the reaction of metals to heat, but in cold fusion, which even in the physics community is regarded as bordering on alchemy. Even more bizarrely, his other famous published work was one right out of the World Weekly News, claiming that Jesus visited Central America based on ancient Indian artwork.

So maybe the "scholars" have other "experts" from whom Dr. Jones (Indiana?) is relying on, so I decided to look over their list of "full members" described here as:




Currently, S9/11T has four categories of members: full members (FM), who have or have had academic appointments or the equivalent;


I compiled the list of members and categorized them by specialty, position and institution, which actually was rather difficult. Oddly enough many of the members don't list their qualifications or university, which is quite strange, since every professor I have ever met is more than happy to go on for hours about their academic credentials.

I came up with a list of 76 members, expecting it to be full of Ivy League engineers and distinguished Middle Eastern scholars, experts bent on proving that the US government, and not Osama bin Laden attacked the World Trade Centers. I was wrong.

Out of the 76 "experts" the most common academic discipline was philosophy, with 9 members, including a co-founder. Since 7 members did not even list an academic discipline, this was 1/7 of their credentialed membership. English/literature and psychology came in next with 5 members each. Even theology and "humanities" came in with 4 and 3 members respectively. Among actual scientific fields, physics was way in front, with 5 members, including the aforementioned Dr. Jones. I am not sure as to their academic credentials though, at least one of the "physicists", Jeffrey Farrer, isn't even a professor, he is a lab manager at BYU. One has to wonder whether Steven Jones' janitor is also listed as an associate member?

So how many engineers do they have? Out of the 76, a grand total of 2. Jean-Pierre Petit, a French aeronautical engineer, who despite the obvious handicap of being French actually seems to have a relevant qualification. Curiously enough though, he doesn't seem to have written a single word on 9/11. He has written though, on a mysterious plot by the US military to bomb Jupiter with anti-matter weapons!

The second engineer is Judy Wood, who has been mentioned in the comments here for her bizarre billiard ball from the top of the World Trade Center theory. OK, Ms. Wood is an actual Mechanical Engineer at Clemson, but thus far her work has been primarily focused on the stresses of dentistry. A fascinating field no doubt, but hardly relevant to planes crashing into buildings.

So how many structural engineers are listed? Absolutely zero. How many experts in Middle Eastern studies, or the Arabic language? Also zero. But they do have a professor of social work!

So I thought, maybe I am being too narrow minded? Maybe these are just America's best and brightest minds, even if they are working out of their fields of specialty. Noam Chomsky at least, regardless of what you think of his kooky politics, is a respected professor of linguistics at MIT. So I looked up this list of the top 20 universities in the world (17 located in the US) from the Economist, expecting to find the schools of our distinguished scholars to be well represented on it.

Wrong. A total of one professor, Kevin Barrett, a Professor of Folk Lore at the University of Wisconsin-Madison was represented.

Total number of "scholars" from the Ivy League, zero. Total number of "scholars" from Tunxcis Community College, one. "

Are the above you experts? Because I seem to recall you referring to Jones and Bowman before....

pwned.
 
hey dipshit... prior to 9/11 they were living in the open in Afghanistan. They were not living in caves. The fact that you are dumb enough (or is it racist?) to believe that they don't have the capability to gather information shows that you should not be involved in an adult conversation.

You fucking ignorant hack. Go sip some more of your kool-aid.

as for your caveman comment, nice attempt to hide your racism... but sorry, it was plain for all to see.

Where is Bin Laden supposedly hiding out you moron? .. IN CAVES.

Ever read the National Commision on Terrorist Attacks on the United States Report. Of course you haven't. Where did this commission claim the supposed terrorists lived and trained? .. IN CAVES YOU MORON.
http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm

Have you EVER heard me use "cavemen" anywhere except in conversations about the supposed hijackers. No, you haven't because I'm talking specifically about them. This new found right-wing rush to hide behind "racism" is indeed humorous.

Where do you gather such information about US wargames?

You have a computer .. where is the US planning the next wargames?

... just go away
 
Who Are the Scholars for 9/11 Truth?


As Pat and I get further into this subject, we will inevitably get into people not directly involved in the movie, but those that feed the frenzy of conspiratorial theory. One such organization is the "Scholars for 9/11 Truth", who pop up with increasing frequency as some type of "expert" authority for the 9/11 "truth" movement. Sort of a Jedi Council for conspiracy nutbars. So I decided to look into them further, and see just how authoritative they are.

A look at their website reveals they are certainly full of themselves. Boldfaced headlines scream out the word, "experts" at every turn:

XPERTS CLAIM OFFICIAL 9/11 STORY IS A HOAX

Scholars for 9/11 Truth call for verification and publication by an international consortium.

Duluth, MN (PRWEB)
January 30, 2006 -- A group of distinguished experts and scholars, including Robert M. Bowman, James H. Fetzer, Wayne Madsen, John McMurtry, Morgan Reynolds, and Andreas von Buelow, have concluded that senior government officials have covered up crucial facts about what really happened on 9/11.

Their most famous member, and co-founder, is Steven Jones, a physicist at Brigham Young University. He has become famous for publishing a paper on the WTC collapse. Thus far this paper though, has only been reviewed, not in a journal on physics, or structural engineering, but in a Marxist journal of political economy. BYU itself has rejected his work. Dr. Jones primary research has been, not in structural engineering or the reaction of metals to heat, but in cold fusion, which even in the physics community is regarded as bordering on alchemy. Even more bizarrely, his other famous published work was one right out of the World Weekly News, claiming that Jesus visited Central America based on ancient Indian artwork.

So maybe the "scholars" have other "experts" from whom Dr. Jones (Indiana?) is relying on, so I decided to look over their list of "full members" described here as:




Currently, S9/11T has four categories of members: full members (FM), who have or have had academic appointments or the equivalent;


I compiled the list of members and categorized them by specialty, position and institution, which actually was rather difficult. Oddly enough many of the members don't list their qualifications or university, which is quite strange, since every professor I have ever met is more than happy to go on for hours about their academic credentials.

I came up with a list of 76 members, expecting it to be full of Ivy League engineers and distinguished Middle Eastern scholars, experts bent on proving that the US government, and not Osama bin Laden attacked the World Trade Centers. I was wrong.

Out of the 76 "experts" the most common academic discipline was philosophy, with 9 members, including a co-founder. Since 7 members did not even list an academic discipline, this was 1/7 of their credentialed membership. English/literature and psychology came in next with 5 members each. Even theology and "humanities" came in with 4 and 3 members respectively. Among actual scientific fields, physics was way in front, with 5 members, including the aforementioned Dr. Jones. I am not sure as to their academic credentials though, at least one of the "physicists", Jeffrey Farrer, isn't even a professor, he is a lab manager at BYU. One has to wonder whether Steven Jones' janitor is also listed as an associate member?

So how many engineers do they have? Out of the 76, a grand total of 2. Jean-Pierre Petit, a French aeronautical engineer, who despite the obvious handicap of being French actually seems to have a relevant qualification. Curiously enough though, he doesn't seem to have written a single word on 9/11. He has written though, on a mysterious plot by the US military to bomb Jupiter with anti-matter weapons!

The second engineer is Judy Wood, who has been mentioned in the comments here for her bizarre billiard ball from the top of the World Trade Center theory. OK, Ms. Wood is an actual Mechanical Engineer at Clemson, but thus far her work has been primarily focused on the stresses of dentistry. A fascinating field no doubt, but hardly relevant to planes crashing into buildings.

So how many structural engineers are listed? Absolutely zero. How many experts in Middle Eastern studies, or the Arabic language? Also zero. But they do have a professor of social work!

So I thought, maybe I am being too narrow minded? Maybe these are just America's best and brightest minds, even if they are working out of their fields of specialty. Noam Chomsky at least, regardless of what you think of his kooky politics, is a respected professor of linguistics at MIT. So I looked up this list of the top 20 universities in the world (17 located in the US) from the Economist, expecting to find the schools of our distinguished scholars to be well represented on it.

Wrong. A total of one professor, Kevin Barrett, a Professor of Folk Lore at the University of Wisconsin-Madison was represented.

Total number of "scholars" from the Ivy League, zero. Total number of "scholars" from Tunxcis Community College, one. "

Are the above you experts? Because I seem to recall you referring to Jones and Bowman before....

Go see if I have EVER quoted Scholars for 9/11 truth. I haven't.

I have quoted pilots for 9/11 tuth and feel free to fact check to see if they are real pilots .. combat pilots.

I have quoted Lt. Col Robert Bowman .. and man of impeccable and distinguished credentials.

Feel free to challange his credentials if you choose .. you won't.

Not doing 9/11 here .. don't really care if you believe it or not.

SERIOUSLY, I don't give a damn.
 
Of note is how the article carefully asks the kind of questions to avoid exposing what is already happening under democratic health care "reform". Democrats have already made cuts in medicare, by their own admission to help pay for their reform bill. Among other things, these medicare cuts have already placed age limits on certain types of life-sustaining treatments, such as dialysis. So they are DELIBERATELY doing with their plan what they CRITICIZE the current system of doing: declining coverage of life-sustaining treatments in order to save money. And LYING about what they are doing in the process.

In short, the whole argument made above is a STRAWMAN. The issue is NOT about the counseling provision. The issue is about denial of coverage for life-sustaining treatments BASED ON AGE andd it is ALREADY HAPPENING! So they get away with claiming it's not in the bill - because it truly is not in the healthcare bill. It is contained in other bills cutting medicare to PAY for the healthcare bill.
 
Of note is how the article carefully asks the kind of questions to avoid exposing what is already happening under democratic health care "reform". Democrats have already made cuts in medicare, by their own admission to help pay for their reform bill. Among other things, these medicare cuts have already placed age limits on certain types of life-sustaining treatments, such as dialysis. So they are DELIBERATELY doing with their plan what they CRITICIZE the current system of doing: declining coverage of life-sustaining treatments in order to save money. And LYING about what they are doing in the process.

In short, the whole argument made above is a STRAWMAN. The issue is NOT about the counseling provision. The issue is about denial of coverage for life-sustaining treatments BASED ON AGE andd it is ALREADY HAPPENING! So they get away with claiming it's not in the bill - because it truly is not in the healthcare bill. It is contained in other bills cutting medicare to PAY for the healthcare bill.

I'd love to see a link to something exposing Medicare for denying coverage to old people.
 
Who Are the Scholars for 9/11 Truth?


As Pat and I get further into this subject, we will inevitably get into people not directly involved in the movie, but those that feed the frenzy of conspiratorial theory. One such organization is the "Scholars for 9/11 Truth", who pop up with increasing frequency as some type of "expert" authority for the 9/11 "truth" movement. Sort of a Jedi Council for conspiracy nutbars. So I decided to look into them further, and see just how authoritative they are.

A look at their website reveals they are certainly full of themselves. Boldfaced headlines scream out the word, "experts" at every turn:

XPERTS CLAIM OFFICIAL 9/11 STORY IS A HOAX

Scholars for 9/11 Truth call for verification and publication by an international consortium.

Duluth, MN (PRWEB)
January 30, 2006 -- A group of distinguished experts and scholars, including Robert M. Bowman, James H. Fetzer, Wayne Madsen, John McMurtry, Morgan Reynolds, and Andreas von Buelow, have concluded that senior government officials have covered up crucial facts about what really happened on 9/11.

Their most famous member, and co-founder, is Steven Jones, a physicist at Brigham Young University. He has become famous for publishing a paper on the WTC collapse. Thus far this paper though, has only been reviewed, not in a journal on physics, or structural engineering, but in a Marxist journal of political economy. BYU itself has rejected his work. Dr. Jones primary research has been, not in structural engineering or the reaction of metals to heat, but in cold fusion, which even in the physics community is regarded as bordering on alchemy. Even more bizarrely, his other famous published work was one right out of the World Weekly News, claiming that Jesus visited Central America based on ancient Indian artwork.

So maybe the "scholars" have other "experts" from whom Dr. Jones (Indiana?) is relying on, so I decided to look over their list of "full members" described here as:




Currently, S9/11T has four categories of members: full members (FM), who have or have had academic appointments or the equivalent;


I compiled the list of members and categorized them by specialty, position and institution, which actually was rather difficult. Oddly enough many of the members don't list their qualifications or university, which is quite strange, since every professor I have ever met is more than happy to go on for hours about their academic credentials.

I came up with a list of 76 members, expecting it to be full of Ivy League engineers and distinguished Middle Eastern scholars, experts bent on proving that the US government, and not Osama bin Laden attacked the World Trade Centers. I was wrong.

Out of the 76 "experts" the most common academic discipline was philosophy, with 9 members, including a co-founder. Since 7 members did not even list an academic discipline, this was 1/7 of their credentialed membership. English/literature and psychology came in next with 5 members each. Even theology and "humanities" came in with 4 and 3 members respectively. Among actual scientific fields, physics was way in front, with 5 members, including the aforementioned Dr. Jones. I am not sure as to their academic credentials though, at least one of the "physicists", Jeffrey Farrer, isn't even a professor, he is a lab manager at BYU. One has to wonder whether Steven Jones' janitor is also listed as an associate member?

So how many engineers do they have? Out of the 76, a grand total of 2. Jean-Pierre Petit, a French aeronautical engineer, who despite the obvious handicap of being French actually seems to have a relevant qualification. Curiously enough though, he doesn't seem to have written a single word on 9/11. He has written though, on a mysterious plot by the US military to bomb Jupiter with anti-matter weapons!

The second engineer is Judy Wood, who has been mentioned in the comments here for her bizarre billiard ball from the top of the World Trade Center theory. OK, Ms. Wood is an actual Mechanical Engineer at Clemson, but thus far her work has been primarily focused on the stresses of dentistry. A fascinating field no doubt, but hardly relevant to planes crashing into buildings.

So how many structural engineers are listed? Absolutely zero. How many experts in Middle Eastern studies, or the Arabic language? Also zero. But they do have a professor of social work!

So I thought, maybe I am being too narrow minded? Maybe these are just America's best and brightest minds, even if they are working out of their fields of specialty. Noam Chomsky at least, regardless of what you think of his kooky politics, is a respected professor of linguistics at MIT. So I looked up this list of the top 20 universities in the world (17 located in the US) from the Economist, expecting to find the schools of our distinguished scholars to be well represented on it.

Wrong. A total of one professor, Kevin Barrett, a Professor of Folk Lore at the University of Wisconsin-Madison was represented.

Total number of "scholars" from the Ivy League, zero. Total number of "scholars" from Tunxcis Community College, one. "

Are the above you experts? Because I seem to recall you referring to Jones and Bowman before....
Just lol.
 
Oh brother...

we'll call it what ever we like..and the rest of ya can just whine about it...lol
But what you call it is a lie. Why lie about it. Why say that it includes a panel that "decides" if you live or die. If you don't like the bill, oppose it but don't lie about it.
 
From page 32 of the plan

(b) DUTIES.--
(1) RECOMMENDATIONS ON BENEFIT STANDARDS.--The Health Benefits Advisory Committee shall recommend to the Secretary of Health and Human Services (in this subtitle referred to as the ''Secretary'') benefit standards (as defined in paragraph (4)), and periodic updates to such standards. In developing such recommendations, the Committee shall take into account innovation in health care and consider how such standards could reduce health disparities.

Says nothing about end of life decisions. Does it?
 
These types of discussions are critical as it will prevent any misunderstandings such as what we all saw in the Terry Schiavo case. Personally I think every adult should have a living will established to address these questions.
And THIS is the honest answer to this. Not that there is going to be a board who decides who lives and who dies. That is a lie.
 
From page 32 of the plan

(b) DUTIES.--
(1) RECOMMENDATIONS ON BENEFIT STANDARDS.--The Health Benefits Advisory Committee shall recommend to the Secretary of Health and Human Services (in this subtitle referred to as the ''Secretary'') benefit standards (as defined in paragraph (4)), and periodic updates to such standards. In developing such recommendations, the Committee shall take into account innovation in health care and consider how such standards could reduce health disparities.

Says nothing about end of life decisions. Does it?

It does here (page 30):
There is established a private-public advisory committee which shall be a panel of medical and other experts to be known as the Health Benefits Advisory Committee to recommend covered benefits...

Which of course means not all benefits would be covered: rationing.
 
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