"Don't go to college, go to a trade school"

[SmarterthanYou]

Curious your thoughts here (because I could be off). The discussion over the benefits of college isn't a new one but it's taken on a very different twist in the past half decade or so and that's voting. Historically Republicans have often won more of the vote of the college educated. (Generalizing here but historically the Democrats were the party of labor and a decent number of those folks didn't have college degrees and then you had the 'country club Republicans' and that ilk which had degrees at a higher level.)

Then of course with the advancement of technology and the loss of old school manufacturing/factory jobs the need for a college degree became greater but more college graduates still voted Republican. This really started to change in 2016 when Trump winning a far larger share of non-college educated whites than previous Republican candidates and especially in 2020 when we saw college educated voters really turn for Biden. Throw in the fact that in a speech where Trump was listing off all the people he loved he included the less educated. To me, that was the real sea change for those on the left. You see how many of them look down upon those without a college degree (because the assumption is they are a Trump voter).

You can even look ITT and the racism after I posted the meme from one of my old teachers (dude is an Oakland legend and true OG in terms of mentoring kids etc. for well over 30 years) saying a lot of money can be made in jobs like plumbing, drywall etc. People couldn't handle someone saying that because it might imply you could go to trade school to learn that skill instead of four year University (the fact that my teacher is black should be irrelevant to the point being made but he was also speaking to kids in Oakland and surrounding areas who grew up with parents who didn't go to college and may not go to college themselves saying there's still opportunity out there for you.) It's interesting some people can't handle that. Not sure why that's a bad thing but clearly it is.

this, in my opinion, is just cultural change. politically motivated of course, but nonetheless, political. Democrats, having portrayed themselves as working for the working class (blue collar/union workers) wanted to collect the majority voters, obviously. Seeing how younger generations were going to college and obtaining those useless degrees, had become ardent liberals, democrats walked away from the working class, with only minor support for unions............they saw where the majority of voters were. Trump and the republicans knew they were never going to get the younger vote because of stubborn arrogance of the youth. It's why Trump lost in 2020.

Identity politics is the rage now and most likely will be that way for another 8 to 10 years............

 

[Into the Night]

Of course it does. I already stated that the U.S is like the best country club in the world. It requires dues to be paid in order to keep it running

There is no U.S. anymore. Not since the coup by Democrats.

 

[Into the Night]

Free public education is a positive thing for the economy because it means instead of spending $400 a month on student loans, that person can spend $400 a month on things that create jobs, like goods and services.

The average monthly student loan payment is about $400, and there are about 50M people with student loans.

So by paying student loans, those 50M are taking about $20,000,000,000 out of the economy every month. EVERY MONTH.

That money doesn't create jobs, doesn't trickle down to anyone, and serves no economic purpose.

The annual total is about $240B a year, or about 1% of GDP.

TANSTAAFL. Communism doesn't work. It's theft.

 

[Into the Night]

No, that's capitalism.




There isn't now, so why would there be?




Who says the private schools will pay higher wages, and not try to drive wages down like they always do?

Since those schools wouldn't be getting as much in tuition if public schools were free, why would they increase their budget for faculty instead of cutting it in order to achieve higher profit margins?

Redefinition fallacy (communism<->capitalism). TANSTAAFL. Communism doesn't work. It's theft.

 

[Into the Night]

You really are delusional. In a capitalist economy you get out what you put in. If you choose to work for someone, you make a deal. If the deal is good for you great. If you made a bad deal, too bad for you. Either way, I and the company made a deal and we each get what we agreed to if we meet the contract. That even goes for union labor.
Executives only get paid and keep their jobs if the company is successful. If it isn't you end up fired either by the rest of management, or by the stockholders / investors.

In a capitalist society, I can work for myself or start my own company. If I invent something I get the fruits of that invention whether I sell it off, or turn it into a product myself.

Capitalism's weakness is it's essentially a PvP world. The good players get rich, the crappy players--like you--get little or nothing. Up your game or be poor.

That's a weakness????!? The productive get rich. The unproductive through no fault of their own can get charity from the productive. The unproductive due to sheer laziness can remain poor. Do not confuse charity with communism.

In communism, everything belongs collectively to the state. I invent something, the state owns it and I get nothing extra for having done that. So, why bother? I can't start a company or work for myself, as everything I do goes to the state who then decides what I get as compensation for my efforts.

Communism's failure is it plays to the lowest common denominator. Everybody gets a participation trophy regardless of effort put forward. Everybody ends up equally poor because the standard is to be poor.

The only ones that aren't poor are the 'elite', or the thieves that take everything (the government).

 

[Into the Night]

Oh really? So then what did this guy "put in"?

Bank Got Bailout, CEO Got Golden Parachute
https://www.propublica.org/article/bank-got-bailout-ceo-got-golden-parachute-1119

Theft.

 

[Into the Night]

This has nothing to do with the topic.




You mean like this guy?

The South Financial Group, South Carolina's largest bank, announced earlier this week that it had been approved to receive $347 million from the U.S. government. But the bank's founder and longtime CEO Mack Whittle won't be sticking around. He retired with an $18 million severance package in late October, two months earlier than had been expected. Because of the timing, he's free from golden parachute limits (PDF) that come with accepting bailout money.
https://www.propublica.org/article/bank-got-bailout-ceo-got-golden-parachute-1119

Or this guy?

JPMorgan Chase & Co. CEO Jamie Dimon received a stock bonus valued at nearly $16 million for 2009.
https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...n Chase & Co.,crisis, the company said Friday.

Or this guy?

Goldman CEO Blankfein gets $9M stock bonus for 2009
https://www.mercurynews.com/2010/02/05/goldman-ceo-blankfein-gets-9m-stock-bonus-for-2009/

Or this guy?

Morgan Stanley CEO Gorman got $6.5 million in 2009
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...got-6-5-million-in-2009-idUSTRE63049720100401

All those guys were in charge when they destroyed the economy, yet they kept their jobs and got bonuses.

So everything you're saying is debunked by what actually happened.

Capitalism, like Communism, always works in theory, but never in practice.

These are not examples of capitalism. They are examples of 'the elite' in communism.

 

[Into the Night]

Except that in order to get the business going, you need a loan and chances are that you won't be able to get a loan from a bank because you're not a major corporation or wealthy yourself, so you'll have to turn to the SBA, which is a government agency.

Nope. A loan is not required to start a business. If a business does take out a loan, it is expected to pay it back, or to lose its assets in a bankruptcy court.

Furthermore, half of all businesses fail by year 5, and those loans they got to start the business are forgiven in bankruptcy court.

The business assets are liquidated to pay debts, dumbass. The business may even be forced to sell to someone that will run it profitably.

So nothing you're saying is reflected in reality the way you think it is.

Capitalism's weakness is that it deliberately ignores the human condition of greed.

You obviously don't understand what it takes to run a business. It is not greed. That is what occurs in communism. Communism is theft. That's greed.

To be a successful business, you must serve your customers. Any business that does not serve its customers is headed for bankruptcy court.

Well, then it's a good thing that no one is calling for that in the US.

There is no U.S., and YOU are calling exactly for that. You are calling for communism.

What we are calling for is public ownership of sectors of the economy that are for the public good, like health care, education, housing, and energy.

Communism doesn't work. It's theft. Fascism doesn't work either, for the same reason.

ObamaCare is collapsing from it's own weight. It is failing. It caused a lot of destruction of the health insurance industry.
Education is resulting in graduates that are functionally illiterate.
Public housing are slums.
Public energy results in insufficient energy (such as currently in Europe, Russia, or the SDTC).

I love the fact that there are 100's of types of soda for me to choose from, but I don't love the fact that there are only a handful of doctors I can choose from because of my insurance provider network.

Thank communism for your trouble with finding a doctor. That's one of the results of ObamaCare.

 

[Into the Night]

The average wage for a plumber (non-union), is about $10K lower than the national average ($55K).

The average wage for a plumber (union) is right at the national average.

Why are so many people outright lying about how lucrative those jobs are? Because they don't want people going to college and learning that their labor is being exploited.

So they're trying to convince everyone that earning less on average than the national average is "a lot of money".

Making up numbers is not going to help you.

 

[Into the Night]

Trump loves the uneducated. Fascists want the population to be dumb and easily manipulated.

'Expert' worship. Special pleading fallacy. Redefinition fallacy (conservatism<->socialism, capitalism<->fascism). Bigotry.

 

[Into the Night]

Trade School teaches service and the people pushing that want to be served, they don't want to have those serving them questioning their exploitation.

Voluntary service to others is not exploitation. Redefinition fallacy.

 

[Althea]

Free public education is a positive thing for the economy because it means instead of spending $400 a month on student loans, that person can spend $400 a month on things that create jobs, like goods and services.

The average monthly student loan payment is about $400, and there are about 50M people with student loans.

So by paying student loans, those 50M are taking about $20,000,000,000 out of the economy every month. EVERY MONTH.

That money doesn't create jobs, doesn't trickle down to anyone, and serves no economic purpose.

The annual total is about $240B a year, or about 1% of GDP.

There are plenty of models that can be studied in Europe. Of course, they don't waste trillions on defense.

 

[Althea]

Future success is dependent on time because it's literally the future.

Are we on the same page as to how linear time works?

Your premise is that a degree will EVENTUALLY pay dividends.

 

[Althea]

this, in my opinion, is just cultural change. politically motivated of course, but nonetheless, political. Democrats, having portrayed themselves as working for the working class (blue collar/union workers) wanted to collect the majority voters, obviously. Seeing how younger generations were going to college and obtaining those useless degrees, had become ardent liberals, democrats walked away from the working class, with only minor support for unions............they saw where the majority of voters were. Trump and the republicans knew they were never going to get the younger vote because of stubborn arrogance of the youth. It's why Trump lost in 2020.

Identity politics is the rage now and most likely will be that way for another 8 to 10 years............

It's probably a bit more complex. Unions shot themselve in the foot by festering into a greedy cancer. Corporations shipped jobs overseas, and unions saw a severe downturn in membership. Reagan correctly started the decimation, when the Air Traffic Controllers Union was absolutely delusional in their demands.

Given the lack of manufacturing, unions took a pretty big hit.

But...the Right To Work states are NOT Blue states. I don't believe Democrats ever gave up on unions. There are just more Red state legislatures who are screwing labor.

Given the union busting laws, I just think that there was less money to be donated to campaigns.

You're correct, though. Everything is about votes, including the student debt forgiveness. Biden ran on it, and Republicans have been pretty successful at blocking quite a bit of his agenda. No different than promises of huge tax cuts, easing of environmental regulations, etc..

Everything is about votes.

 

[Althea]

Trade School teaches service and the people pushing that want to be served, they don't want to have those serving them questioning their exploitation.

Or, trade schools teach skills that cannot be offshored.

We now pay India or other third world nations to do quite a bit that used to be done by those with degrees in business, advertising, commercial arts, etc..

Nobody in China is going to fix your car/furnace/water heater/well pump, etc..

I believe that's a large part of the merit of learing a trade.

 

[ExpressLane]

Or, trade schools teach skills that cannot be offshored.

We now pay India or other third world nations to do quite a bit that used to be done by those with degrees in business, advertising, commercial arts, etc..

Nobody in China is going to fix your car/furnace/water heater/well pump, etc..

I believe that's a large part of the merit of learning a trade.

Tradesmen generally start earning 2-3 years while college students are paying tuition and not earning anything. It take the college students a long time to catch up if they ever do.

 

[ExpressLane]

It's probably a bit more complex. Unions shot themselve in the foot by festering into a greedy cancer. Corporations shipped jobs overseas, and unions saw a severe downturn in membership. Reagan correctly started the decimation, when the Air Traffic Controllers Union was absolutely delusional in their demands.

Given the lack of manufacturing, unions took a pretty big hit.

But...the Right To Work states are NOT Blue states. I don't believe Democrats ever gave up on unions. There are just more Red state legislatures who are screwing labor.

Given the union busting laws, I just think that there was less money to be donated to campaigns.

You're correct, though. Everything is about votes, including the student debt forgiveness. Biden ran on it, and Republicans have been pretty successful at blocking quite a bit of his agenda. No different than promises of huge tax cuts, easing of environmental regulations, etc..

Everything is about votes.

I have a friend that was at a convention in Chicago he had a booth for his company that sold internet backed emg equipment. His company was required to hire a union guy that just sat and watched him set up his booth. Then the union guy made him call a union electrician to simply plug in some of his equipment to the wall socket. Then he made him call another union guy to plug his equipment into an internet socket. And unions wonder why there are states that are right to work and aren't controlled by unions.

 

[BidenPresident]

Tradesmen generally start earning 2-3 years while college students are paying tuition and not earning anything. It take the college students a long time to catch up if they ever do.

They catch up and surpass.

 

[Althea]

Tradesmen generally start earning 2-3 years while college students are paying tuition and not earning anything. It take the college students a long time to catch up if they ever do.

These days, they have to get lucky. There are dozens of studies showing college grads who either don't work in their field of study, or don't work a job that requires a degree.

Cypress correctly states that we should wait a few years for students to land a job.

 

[ExpressLane]

They catch up and surpass.

Some do. Some never do. But if they surpass them they for sure have no right to ask those that did not go to college to pay for their education for them.