Democrat NO Check on Power in Senate: Stimulus to GROW even bigger

You misunderstand.

I am for rebuilding America from the bottom up not the top down.
Will take longer but last longer too.

And you would be correct.

Bottom up is exactly how this nation should be rebuilt.

Bad anti-stimulus arguments

A number of conservative economists have been arguing against a stimulus plan centered on government spending. Fair enough. But one argument I keep reading bugs me: it’s the claim that spending-based stimulus is bad because economic theory tells us that a marginal dollar of private spending is better than a marginal dollar of government spending.

That’s just wrong; it’s a misreading of basic, Econ 101 level, economics.

Yes, the standard theory of consumer choice says that a consumer gains more utility if he or she gets to freely allocate a dollar of spending than if someone else makes the choices: I’d rather buy myself a $10 meal than have you feed me $10 worth of food that you select.

But that’s not what we’re talking about when we talk about stimulus spending: we’re not talking about the government buying consumption goods for the public at large. Instead, we’re talking about spending more on public goods: goods that the private market won’t supply, or at any rate won’t supply in sufficient quantities. things like roads, communication networks, sewage systems, and so on. And every Econ 101 textbook explains that the provision of public goods is a necessary function of government.

When we’re asking whether it’s better to have the government stimulate the economy or to try to stimulate private spending, we’re asking among other things whether a marginal dollar spent on public goods is worth more or less than a marginal dollar spent on private consumption. And there’s nothing, even in Econ 101, that clearly favors private spending on private goods over public spending on public goods.

In other words, the attempt to claim the authority of economics for the idea that stimulus in the form of tax cuts is better, at a microeconomic level, than stimulus in the form of infrastructure spending is a case of bait and switch. Don’t fall for it.
Bad anti-stimulus arguments
A number of conservative economists have been arguing against a stimulus plan centered on government spending. Fair enough. But one argument I keep reading bugs me: it’s the claim that spending-based stimulus is bad because economic theory tells us that a marginal dollar of private spending is better than a marginal dollar of government spending.

That’s just wrong; it’s a misreading of basic, Econ 101 level, economics.

Yes, the standard theory of consumer choice says that a consumer gains more utility if he or she gets to freely allocate a dollar of spending than if someone else makes the choices: I’d rather buy myself a $10 meal than have you feed me $10 worth of food that you select.

But that’s not what we’re talking about when we talk about stimulus spending: we’re not talking about the government buying consumption goods for the public at large. Instead, we’re talking about spending more on public goods: goods that the private market won’t supply, or at any rate won’t supply in sufficient quantities. things like roads, communication networks, sewage systems, and so on. And every Econ 101 textbook explains that the provision of public goods is a necessary function of government.

When we’re asking whether it’s better to have the government stimulate the economy or to try to stimulate private spending, we’re asking among other things whether a marginal dollar spent on public goods is worth more or less than a marginal dollar spent on private consumption. And there’s nothing, even in Econ 101, that clearly favors private spending on private goods over public spending on public goods.

In other words, the attempt to claim the authority of economics for the idea that stimulus in the form of tax cuts is better, at a microeconomic level, than stimulus in the form of infrastructure spending is a case of bait and switch. Don’t fall for it.
Bad anti-stimulus arguments
A number of conservative economists have been arguing against a stimulus plan centered on government spending. Fair enough. But one argument I keep reading bugs me: it’s the claim that spending-based stimulus is bad because economic theory tells us that a marginal dollar of private spending is better than a marginal dollar of government spending.

That’s just wrong; it’s a misreading of basic, Econ 101 level, economics.

Yes, the standard theory of consumer choice says that a consumer gains more utility if he or she gets to freely allocate a dollar of spending than if someone else makes the choices: I’d rather buy myself a $10 meal than have you feed me $10 worth of food that you select.

But that’s not what we’re talking about when we talk about stimulus spending: we’re not talking about the government buying consumption goods for the public at large. Instead, we’re talking about spending more on public goods: goods that the private market won’t supply, or at any rate won’t supply in sufficient quantities. things like roads, communication networks, sewage systems, and so on. And every Econ 101 textbook explains that the provision of public goods is a necessary function of government.

When we’re asking whether it’s better to have the government stimulate the economy or to try to stimulate private spending, we’re asking among other things whether a marginal dollar spent on public goods is worth more or less than a marginal dollar spent on private consumption. And there’s nothing, even in Econ 101, that clearly favors private spending on private goods over public spending on public goods.

In other words, the attempt to claim the authority of economics for the idea that stimulus in the form of tax cuts is better, at a microeconomic level, than stimulus in the form of infrastructure spending is a case of bait and switch. Don’t fall for it.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/22/bad-anti-stimulus-arguments/
 
OK I'll provide a translation for any Democrats here:

Check on power = Giving Republicans everything they want
LOL.

It is astounding how much you sound like the Ds whining about "bipartisanship", and the answer:

"To Democrats 'bipartisanship' means 'voting the way they want'...

You sound exactly like Rush Limbaugh. It's funny. Too bad you aren't as entertaining, you might actually be a talk radio host and make money.
 
To me common sense means voting the way I want. The Democrats shouldn't aim for bipartisanship, they should crush the Republicans. They won. That's all the matters. Now fuck off loser.
 
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LOL.

It is astounding how much you sound like the Ds whining about "bipartisanship", and the answer:

"To Democrats 'bipartisanship' means 'voting the way they want'...

You sound exactly like Rush Limbaugh. It's funny. Too bad you aren't as entertaining, you might actually be a talk radio host and make money.

I hope someday Waterdork makes some money, then he might actually care how government spends it.
 
I hope someday Waterdork makes some money, then he might actually care how government spends it.

Oh I made some money. A little from my employer, a little from you. The government gives it to me like crazy! It's all good. :)

I love spending your money so much dano. It gives me so much pleasure. I spend it on things other than porn, country music, and guns too, so I do more to stimulate the economy.
 
Dano - you do understand how hundreds of thousands of new workers getting added to the unemployment rolls every month affects gov't revenues, right?
 
Dano - you do understand how hundreds of thousands of new workers getting added to the unemployment rolls every month affects gov't revenues, right?
There is no guarantee the stimulus will create jobs and there is no guarantee that the recovery would be permanent and that we are not just delaying the inevitable. There is a 100% guarantee you are adding debt though.
 
There is no guarantee the stimulus will create jobs and there is no guarantee that the recovery would be permanent and that we are not just delaying the inevitable. There is a 100% guarantee you are adding debt though.

There actually is a guarantee that the stimulus bill will create jobs. The crux is how many.

Regardless, it would be inane for the gov't to stick its head in the sand & ignore what is happening right now. Obama was elected in the middle of this crisis, and he was clear about what he planned to pursue with regard to the economy. In polls, a clear majority support the kind of stimulus being proposed.

Very few think the gov't should do nothing now, or that mere tax cuts (also part of the package) will do the trick. Everyone is reigning spending in, and without outside stimulus, that pattern of contraction can & will spiral.

That's not hard to comprehend.
 
You're an ignorant boob. You don't know your ass from your elbow. The bulk of the increased costs is in tax cuts, not increased spending as I showed you (and you ignored) yesterday.

Yes, increased tax cuts and now Obama has said "yes sir" to the Repukes and they're writing the bill - less stimilus spending, shooting for a 200 billion dollar cut.

So when this passes, it's what? Bush budget II?

I had really hoped bac was wrong, but he was right.

This guy was a big mistake. I'm so disgusted I need a big break from politics.

This country is totally fucked. I hope no one here is looking for a job. YOu won't be getting one.
 
Yes, increased tax cuts and now Obama has said "yes sir" to the Repukes and they're writing the bill - less stimilus spending, shooting for a 200 billion dollar cut.

So when this passes, it's what? Bush budget II?

I had really hoped bac was wrong, but he was right.

This guy was a big mistake. I'm so disgusted I need a big break from politics.

This country is totally fucked. I hope no one here is looking for a job. YOu won't be getting one.

Well if you apply to the government you are likely to. Private? No way, it's a goner.
 
Yes, increased tax cuts and now Obama has said "yes sir" to the Repukes and they're writing the bill - less stimilus spending, shooting for a 200 billion dollar cut.

So when this passes, it's what? Bush budget II?

I had really hoped bac was wrong, but he was right.

This guy was a big mistake. I'm so disgusted I need a big break from politics.

This country is totally fucked. I hope no one here is looking for a job. YOu won't be getting one.

Darla, what are you talking about? The tax cut has been in there from the get go. He talked about it throughout the campaign.
 
Yes, increased tax cuts and now Obama has said "yes sir" to the Repukes and they're writing the bill - less stimilus spending, shooting for a 200 billion dollar cut.

So when this passes, it's what? Bush budget II?

I had really hoped bac was wrong, but he was right.

This guy was a big mistake. I'm so disgusted I need a big break from politics.

This country is totally fucked. I hope no one here is looking for a job. YOu won't be getting one.


At this point I'm 98.76785% sure that what at first-glance looks like the Republican ass-raping of the Democrats isn't an ass-raping at all. It's consensual and the Democrats just like it rough.
 
I must be the only one who sees the irony of a thread that complains about the stimulus bill being controlled by Dems & veering way too liberal, with comments from liberals that Obama totally caved to Republicans - for including tax cuts he campaigned on, on a board where BAC repeatedly argues that Obambi "tries to please everyone."
 
Onceler you're the last person I want to argue with here, and I'm very angry over how things are shaping up, so let's just not get into it right now.
 
At this point I'm 98.76785% sure that what at first-glance looks like the Republican ass-raping of the Democrats isn't an ass-raping at all. It's consensual and the Democrats just like it rough.

I think that's true of Democrats in general, but I think that Obama thought that since, you know, the Republicans had just destroyed an economy and badly lost an election? that they wouldn't dare obstruct the stimulus bill which economists of all stripes agreed was needed. And he badly miscalculated what the media was going to do to him over his juvenille (in my opinion) insistence on making bipartisanship the holy grail.

HE was hired to put Americans back to work not to hold hands with Republicans. He better get that memo quick.

He's been rolled. And I don't even want to think about the implications of this for health care. Rolled by the most unpopular party in my lifetime. Stunning.
 
I think that's true of Democrats in general, but I think that Obama thought that since, you know, the Republicans had just destroyed an economy and badly lost an election? that they wouldn't dare obstruct the stimulus bill which economists of all stripes agreed was needed. And he badly miscalculated what the media was going to do to him over his juvenille (in my opinion) insistence on making bipartisanship the holy grail.

HE was hired to put Americans back to work not to hold hands with Republicans. He better get that memo quick.

He's been rolled. And I don't even want to think about the implications of this for health care. Rolled by the most unpopular party in my lifetime. Stunning.


I don't think he's been rolled. I think he's playing long-ball. Unfortunately, long-ball isn't what we need. We need leadership right now, a president that says get on board or get out of the way and a Senate leadership willing to tell the Republicans to fuck off, package the stimulus into a budget bill (obviates the need for 60 votes) and just get it done.
 
I don't think he's been rolled. I think he's playing long-ball. Unfortunately, long-ball isn't what we need. We need leadership right now, a president that says get on board or get out of the way and a Senate leadership willing to tell the Republicans to fuck off, package the stimulus into a budget bill (obviates the need for 60 votes) and just get it done.

Maybe. But I don't see how letting the Republicans define the narrative of this bill, helps you in the long game. I guess his intent doesn't matter at this point, the results are bad.

I'd love to see the dems get the guts to do what you are suggesting here.
 
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