Civil War

Rubbish. They squeezed labor
They didn't. They created literally thousands of jobs.
and hired private armies to keep them docile.
They didn't use armies.
The public paid through the nose for those railroads,
Nope. They were a lot cheaper now (other than the government built ones!).
beneficiaries of giant subsidies,
Nope. No 'giant' subsidies at all..
free land,
No free land.
free mineral rights,
No free mineral rights.
all courtesy of bribed govt. officials.
There was some bribery, but not enough to change anything significant.
that is what kept their prices 'down', but not nearly as low as they should have been.
BULLSHIT! They lowered the cost of producing steel until it was commonplace!
they profited from massive debt loaded on top of railroads due to pirates like Morgan saddling them with huge interests bearing debts while playing monopoly using the funds to buy more railroads,
Morgan didn't build railroads. Mostly they were built by the government, but couldn't make a profit. He did reorganize several of them to make them profitable for the first time by buying the loser railroads from the government and reorganizing them!
then saddling those acquisitions with even more huge debts, hence why businesses that should have been money making machines almost all ended up in bankruptcy
Not under Morgan. Under government management.
and the public eating the losses. Carnegie was Tom Scott's butt boy, the most corrupt railroad exec in history.
Carnegie lowered the cost of steel immensely, making the metal commonplace.
Tariffs made the U.S. economy a powerhouse.
Tariffs are not economy. They are a tax.
That and a tiny middle class
Don't try class warfare with me!
and a large poor population
Don't try class warfare with me!
that required constant influxes of desperate disposable immigrants to keep it fueled.
Keep what fueled? Are you suggesting someone was burning immigrants?
Infant morality rates, epidemics, and starvation kept the death tolls high.
Nothing to do with the so-called 'robber barons'.
WW I and its high demand for skilled labor created a larger middle class and better paid working class, with disposable incomes.
War doesn't create any useful product. It creates demand for destruction. It is costly. Don't try class warfare with me!
The financial scams of the 20's wrecked that economic growth, and FDR rescued much of it.
FDR converted a stock market downturn into an economic depression that lasted for well into the 1950's.
while those who kept their wealth hid out on their estates behind private armies and screamed for the fed to kill all the uppity proles they fleeced. Even the sociopath Joseph Kennedy knew what had to be done to keep the country from total collapse, and he and several others were not known for their massive human empathy.
Now you are just griping in general. Lame.
And, re Carnegie, it was his main engineer who invented all the cost savings in manufacturing,
Under the direction of Carnagie.
plus stealing processes from Britain.
Nothing was stolen, Edwina. Britain used coal, so did we. Meh.
Carnegie fucked off 6 months a year playing golf in Scotland and playing Socialist Dilletante, and like most elites wouldn't be caught dead actually practicing what he preached. He paid Frick to do the dirty work and get the bad publicity. Frick was well suited for the job, being a total asshole and sociopath.
You seem to dislike the game of golf. The last thing Carnagie was was lazy.
Engineers made all the improvements, not people like Carnegie and Morgan.
Nope. Carnagie and Morgan. Those engineers worked for Carnagie and Morgan.

The economy wildly benefited from their contribution to it!

* Far cheaper steel.
* Railroad expansion and profitability.
* The creation of advanced banking services (including business loans).

No, I won't let you get away with pushing the 'robber baron' narrative.
 
I would like to reengage on our previous discussion, now that we can see how things are unfolding:






Well, the One Big Beautiful Bill is now officially held up ... all of it, including the points that are not in contention, e.g. Extending Trump's 2017 tax cuts, "No Tax on Tips & Overtime Pay," the child tax credit increase from $2,000 to $2,500, the permanent increase to the Estate and Gift Tax Exemption to $15 million (and permitting generation skipping), the 529 Education Savings Expansion to cover more cost associated with education, and the making permanent of the Paid Family Leave Tax Credit. If these items, for example, had been broken out separately, they would already have the House's stamp of approval.

I think it would have been better for the Republicans to have adhered more to the following reasoning:




I think we're seeing the one big bill clogging the drain, and backing up everything else.
Sorry, I've been traveling for a bit and left the laptop home.

I figured you'd concede I was right all along, but let's dive into the meat of it. In my many years of watching politics, I've seen that no bill zips through Congress without a fight. What proof do you have that each item you listed would already have the House's approval? If you're pointing to the Laken Riley bill or Melania's deepfake bill, those faced no sane opposition, so they're not comparable. The items you mentioned are different, each tied to a constituency where some Republican in a blue district has to play hero, like fighting for SALT deductions. Every bill would hit the same resistance, only it would escalate with each one as those that complain reaps rewards from their gripes and suddenly some freshman thinks he sees the path to relevance and puffs out his chest, etc.. The Senate would face multiple battles instead of one.

Bundling it all into one big bill is clearly the smarter move, and it will happen. This grandstanding is standard for every bill, especially with razor-thin margins. From my view, the unfolding events confirm that one comprehensive bill was the right call. The camera-hungry types will make noise, but they won't derail it. Trump knew the best way to get what he wanted was to pack it all into one massive bill, because Congress wouldn't dare let it fail, it would be political suicide. I agree.
 
They didn't. They created literally thousands of jobs.

They didn't use armies.

Nope. They were a lot cheaper now (other than the government built ones!).

Nope. No 'giant' subsidies at all..

No free land.

No free mineral rights.

There was some bribery, but not enough to change anything significant.

BULLSHIT! They lowered the cost of producing steel until it was commonplace!

Morgan didn't build railroads. Mostly they were built by the government, but couldn't make a profit. He did reorganize several of them to make them profitable for the first time by buying the loser railroads from the government and reorganizing them!

Not under Morgan. Under government management.

Carnegie lowered the cost of steel immensely, making the metal commonplace.

Tariffs are not economy. They are a tax.

Don't try class warfare with me!

Don't try class warfare with me!

Keep what fueled? Are you suggesting someone was burning immigrants?

Nothing to do with the so-called 'robber barons'.

War doesn't create any useful product. It creates demand for destruction. It is costly. Don't try class warfare with me!

FDR converted a stock market downturn into an economic depression that lasted for well into the 1950's.

Now you are just griping in general. Lame.

Under the direction of Carnagie.

Nothing was stolen, Edwina. Britain used coal, so did we. Meh.

You seem to dislike the game of golf. The last thing Carnagie was was lazy.

Nope. Carnagie and Morgan. Those engineers worked for Carnagie and Morgan.

The economy wildly benefited from their contribution to it!

* Far cheaper steel.
* Railroad expansion and profitability.
* The creation of advanced banking services (including business loans).

No, I won't let you get away with pushing the 'robber baron' narrative.

Another example of ideologues making up crap history. same as leftists do. I've fully conversant with Carnegie's biography, you obviously aren't.
 
They didn't. They created literally thousands of jobs.

They didn't use armies.

Nope. They were a lot cheaper now (other than the government built ones!).

Nope. No 'giant' subsidies at all..

No free land.

No free mineral rights.

There was some bribery, but not enough to change anything significant.

BULLSHIT! They lowered the cost of producing steel until it was commonplace!

Morgan didn't build railroads. Mostly they were built by the government, but couldn't make a profit. He did reorganize several of them to make them profitable for the first time by buying the loser railroads from the government and reorganizing them!

Not under Morgan. Under government management.

Carnegie lowered the cost of steel immensely, making the metal commonplace.

Tariffs are not economy. They are a tax.

Don't try class warfare with me!

Don't try class warfare with me!

Keep what fueled? Are you suggesting someone was burning immigrants?

Nothing to do with the so-called 'robber barons'.

War doesn't create any useful product. It creates demand for destruction. It is costly. Don't try class warfare with me!

FDR converted a stock market downturn into an economic depression that lasted for well into the 1950's.

Now you are just griping in general. Lame.

Under the direction of Carnagie.

Nothing was stolen, Edwina. Britain used coal, so did we. Meh.

You seem to dislike the game of golf. The last thing Carnagie was was lazy.

Nope. Carnagie and Morgan. Those engineers worked for Carnagie and Morgan.

The economy wildly benefited from their contribution to it!

* Far cheaper steel.
* Railroad expansion and profitability.
* The creation of advanced banking services (including business loans).

No, I won't let you get away with pushing the 'robber baron' narrative.

You can't do anything about the robber baron narrative, it's historical fact, no matter how much you snivel and cry about it.
 
Because repeating that BS over and over again makes it come true. lol

No such thing as 'free markets'; it's kiddie libertoon fantasy nonsense.
Free markets exist everywhere, Edwina, even in the most oppressive of nations. You can't kill it. It's immortal.
No matter how much you want to suppress them, Edwina, they won't disappear or go away.

I know you, as a socialist, can't even begin to understand that.
 
What proof do you have that each item you listed would already have the House's approval?
You can count the number of Congressmen and Senators who oppose them on one hand. Things like "No tax on tips" is popular on both sides of the aisle. This is why I initially indicated that the sticking points should be separated so as to not hold up the many great points that will fly through virtually unopposed.

The items you mentioned are different, each tied to a constituency where some Republican in a blue district has to play hero, like fighting for SALT deductions.
Correct. Those are the sticking points that should have been tackled separately.

Every bill would hit the same resistance,
Nope. Many Democrat Congressmen and Senators are fully aware of the popularity of Trump's measures (why Trump ran on them in the first place) and are equally aware that they will probably not get reelected by their constituents if they were to oppose them ... but now they can plausibly claim to be opposing the sticking points while resisting Trump for free.

Bundling it all into one big bill is clearly the smarter move, and it will happen.
What I am showing (and what time is now showing) is that it was not a smart move. Everything is getting held up by virtue of everything being tied to the very few sticking points that were not tackled separately.

I hope Trump can work the politics and get it all through.
 
Oh the 'robber baron' story again...:rolleyes:

They brought steel prices down by improving manufacturing techniques, making it affordable for far more people and creating huge industries out of it.
They brought street lighting and electrical power to homes and businesses across the nation, eventually resulting the nation's three power grids.

They made the US economy a powerhouse.
Then, a combination of taxes, unions, environmental regulations, and aging equipment did it all in. Production moved overseas and so did the jobs that went with it.
 
You can look it up yourself. You just don't want to, is all. It would mean you know you're lying.
You are mistaken. Into the Night is correct. A "fact" is simply that which is agreed upon by all parties in a discussion, i.e. it is not in dispute ... amongst those involved in that discussion. When a prosecutor declares "These are the facts of the case", he is saying that the defense does not dispute those items. Everything else that is disputed is what is "argued."
 
How will that work? North against South the last time.
Neighbor against neighbor this time?
Sounds like chaos.
I tend to agree, because it just won't be North vs. South, or white vs. (fill in the blank), or religious vs. secular or conservative vs. liberal vs. progressive, or gay alphabet vs. heterosexual, etc., etc.

And EVERYONE will have relatively easy access to guns, family and friends who were former military.

In short, the evolution of the "silent majority" to our current MAGA and Alt-Right has brought us to a potential hot mess.

God indeed bless America, because we're going to need all the help we can get!

"May you live in interesting times" - ancient Chinese curse (allegedly).
 
You are mistaken. Into the Night is correct. A "fact" is simply that which is agreed upon by all parties in a discussion, i.e. it is not in dispute ... amongst those involved in that discussion. When a prosecutor declares "These are the facts of the case", he is saying that the defense does not dispute those items. Everything else that is disputed is what is "argued."

You mean as long as it fits your ideological bullshit narratives you will pretend it;s true. Okay.
 
Then, a combination of taxes, unions, environmental regulations, and aging equipment did it all in. Production moved overseas and so did the jobs that went with it.

Production moved overseas because it was subsidized by the Feds and labor racketeers and lots of tax bennies were handed out, is all. Slave labor provided by dictators and commies was just too much for the financial sector to resist. Big corps loves them some Red Cadre partners. No way Mexico and other latino countries could provide the infrastructure to support all those factories without the U.S. govt. building it for them. USAID continues to build such infrastructure anywhere in the world a big corp wants to set up plants, and the Feds provide lots of tax incentives as rewards for outsourcing. And then of course the spending on the U.S. consulates, Navy, satellites, and other military spending to keep the shipping lanes open is another cost . Remove all that and it's no longer cheaper to over overseas.
 
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