Civil War

[Into the Night]

No, certainly not. your point?

Free trade can include monopolies (not the other way around). Monopolies are also naturally unstable. It doesn't take long before some startup comes along and shoots the old dinosaur's kneecaps off.

Examples: IBM succumbed to Microsoft. RCA tubes succumbed to transistor manufactures. Sears succumbed to the web and places like Amazon.
Microsoft is trying to be the monopoly now, but Apple and Linux are cleaning it's clock.

Question: Why is there only ONE monopolies commission?

The best answer to the monopoly is simply to let it get attacked by startup companies.
A monopoly can only continue to exist through government help (fascism). This is how NoName (currently Truck Fump) connects corporations with fascism improperly. Being a bigot, he considers ALL corporations to be fascism. He's bought into the Democrat line that corporations are evil.

 

[Tobytone]

No need to tell Congress that! They already know!

Touché

This DOES go against your earlier argument of OOOB though.

No, it DOESN'T, I've suggested that a clear concise OBBB can and should be proposed. I used the Constitution in HOPES of driving home that point.

Not many bills are needed at all for Trump's agenda. Most of it can be implemented by Trump himself without using Congress.

I know and I agree. He can do that and is doing that but as I stated repeatedly, it sure doesn't hurt to back up those actions with legislation, making it more difficult to be undone. He is continuously building up more political capital and I believe he'll have more than enough to pull it off without a hitch. My opinion, of course.

Can you tell, we both have a problem with not getting in the last word. ROFL

 

[Tobytone]

Free trade can include monopolies (not the other way around). Monopolies are also naturally unstable. It doesn't take long before some startup comes along and shoots the old dinosaur's kneecaps off.

Examples: IBM succumbed to Microsoft. RCA tubes succumbed to transistor manufactures. Sears succumbed to the web and places like Amazon.
Microsoft is trying to be the monopoly now, but Apple and Linux are cleaning it's clock.

Question: Why is there only ONE monopolies commission?

The best answer to the monopoly is simply to let it get attacked by startup companies.
A monopoly can only continue to exist through government help (fascism). This is how NoName (currently Truck Fump) connects corporations with fascism improperly. Being a bigot, he considers ALL corporations to be fascism. He's bought into the Democrat line that corporations are evil.

Agreed, I can only assume that was a statement that answered my question to the enemy of the anti-globalist pigs. LOL

 

[Matt Dillon]

Yemen, Lebanon, Russia and China have all reached out to Trump to start negotiations on ending the Biden/Harris wars. The last US president to stand against the war pigs was JFK and we all saw what happened to him on live TV.

The secret service got Kennedy with a head shot. Who else did they try to take out with a head shot on live TV? The question is if they scared Trump into doing what he is told? Either way we'll see it play out on live TV.

I don't think so, Bubba. He does not GAF. It doesn't work like that, I just know.

 

[IBDaMann]

I would like to reengage on our previous discussion, now that we can see how things are unfolding:

One big, beautiful bill would be the key to economic success that swings the midterm elections. Despite the historical trend of the White House party losing seats, if this bill quickly yields positive results, we would not only avoid losses but would likely gain seats in both the House and Senate. Should this occur, by the next presidential election, whether it's Vance, Don Jr., or any competent Republican, they could secure another landslide victory.

Okay...what is IN this 'Big Beautiful Bill'??

Everything Trump and crew want, he's put together a brilliant economical team, and of course, he's no slouch either. (warning: libtard head's may be exploding) as well as, just about any and all non-economical ideas discussed during his campaign or on Agenda 47.

Here's the problem with this: Congress is not Trump or his administration. Congress is ready to pass most of what Trump wants, but there are several contentious issues that Congress is poised to set off to the side for the moment to debate further.

Would you hold up everything, including all the major items like securing the border, eliminating WOKE, restoring the economy, etc. and risk perhaps everything falling apart should bad things happen during the midterms, just for the sake of keeping EVERYTHING bundled together?

How about break everything apart, have a billion beautiful bills, and pass everything except the three or four that would otherwise hold up everything else?

Well, the One Big Beautiful Bill is now officially held up ... all of it, including the points that are not in contention, e.g. Extending Trump's 2017 tax cuts, "No Tax on Tips & Overtime Pay," the child tax credit increase from $2,000 to $2,500, the permanent increase to the Estate and Gift Tax Exemption to $15 million (and permitting generation skipping), the 529 Education Savings Expansion to cover more cost associated with education, and the making permanent of the Paid Family Leave Tax Credit. If these items, for example, had been broken out separately, they would already have the House's stamp of approval.

I think it would have been better for the Republicans to have adhered more to the following reasoning:

you talked about a 'big beautiful bill' to solve everything........I pointed out to you why that is a bad idea.

Not necessarily, but big blobs of a bill often gets bogged down and never passed.

It's not about the number of words. It's about how many different topics are stuck in a bill. Keep it simple. Pass multiple simple specific bills, not try to pass one glob that does 'everything'.

I think we're seeing the one big bill clogging the drain, and backing up everything else.

 

[Hawkeye10]

The least productive Congress in the first 100 days of a new administration in over four decades I was reading.

 

[EdwinA]

One group of oligarchs out bribing an older group isn't 'competition' and 'free trade'. Robber barons warred on each other all the time; see the history of railroads and steel for how that works. Harriman against Morgan, Gould against Harridan and Morgan, Carnegie against Gates and Rockefeller, Morgan against Rockefeller, Edison against Westinghouse, Morgan against Westinghouse, Ford against Sloan and Dupont, and on and on. None of it good for consumers and small business, with the possible exception of Ford and his contrarian policy of producing ever cheaper cars, but then he had a gangster as an enforcer and sent his 'social dept.' into his employees homes and decided what they could read and say, so he can't really brag either.

Ford Sociological Department & English School - The Henry Ford

In order to manage a large and diverse workforce, Ford Motor Company created the Sociological Department and English school. Learn more here.

www.thehenryford.org

In order to manage and control such a large and diverse workforce, John R. Lee, Head of Personnel, created the Sociological Department in 1914. The Sociological Department established a system of rules and codes of behavior for Ford employees that they had to meet, in order to qualify for the $5 day pay rate. The Sociological Department monitored employees at home, as well as on the job. Investigators made unannounced visits to employees' homes and evaluated the cleanliness of the home, noted if the family had renters, checked with school attendance offices to determine if children were attending school and monitored bank records to verify that employees made regular deposits. Sociological Department investigators also assisted workers' families by teaching wives about home care, cooking and hygiene.

Sounds benign here, eh? When I say right wing ideologies and left wing ideologies are distinctions without a difference, it;s because it's true. Commies make their oppression sound benign, too, but we all know they love mass murder as a solution to all social and economic problems, and all corporatists consider workers to be their personal property. The only reason the U.S. differed is that private armies were a lot more expensive here than in Europe, thus they sought alternative methods of thuggery here, the military being too small to handle much most of our history.

 

[Bai Lan]

Free trade can include monopolies (not the other way around). Monopolies are also naturally unstable. It doesn't take long before some startup comes along and shoots the old dinosaur's kneecaps off.

Examples: IBM succumbed to Microsoft. RCA tubes succumbed to transistor manufactures. Sears succumbed to the web and places like Amazon.
Microsoft is trying to be the monopoly now, but Apple and Linux are cleaning it's clock.

Question: Why is there only ONE monopolies commission?

The best answer to the monopoly is simply to let it get attacked by startup companies.
A monopoly can only continue to exist through government help (fascism). This is how NoName (currently Truck Fump) connects corporations with fascism improperly. Being a bigot, he considers ALL corporations to be fascism. He's bought into the Democrat line that corporations are evil.

monopolies are totally stable in our current condition of fascist enablement.


the startup is eliminated or murdered when the monopoly controls government.

at best we get cartels.

true free markets REQUIRE monopoply busting.

 

[Bai Lan]

One group of oligarchs out bribing an older group isn't 'competition' and 'free trade'. Robber barons warred on each other all the time; see the history of railroads and steel for how that works. Harriman against Morgan, Gould against Harridan and Morgan, Carnegie against Gates and Rockefeller, Morgan against Rockefeller, Edison against Westinghouse, Morgan against Westinghouse, Ford against Sloan and Dupont, and on and on. None of it good for consumers and small business, with the possible exception of Ford and his contrarian policy of producing ever cheaper cars, but then he had a gangster as an enforcer and sent his 'social dept.' into his employees homes and decided what they could read and say, so he can't really brag either.

Ford Sociological Department & English School - The Henry Ford

In order to manage a large and diverse workforce, Ford Motor Company created the Sociological Department and English school. Learn more here.

www.thehenryford.org

In order to manage and control such a large and diverse workforce, John R. Lee, Head of Personnel, created the Sociological Department in 1914. The Sociological Department established a system of rules and codes of behavior for Ford employees that they had to meet, in order to qualify for the $5 day pay rate. The Sociological Department monitored employees at home, as well as on the job. Investigators made unannounced visits to employees' homes and evaluated the cleanliness of the home, noted if the family had renters, checked with school attendance offices to determine if children were attending school and monitored bank records to verify that employees made regular deposits. Sociological Department investigators also assisted workers' families by teaching wives about home care, cooking and hygiene.

Sounds benign here, eh? When I say right wing ideologies and left wing ideologies are distinctions without a difference, it;s because it's true. Commies make their oppression sound benign, too, but we all know they love mass murder as a solution to all social and economic problems, and all corporatists consider workers to be their personal property. The only reason the U.S. differed is that private armies were a lot more expensive here than in Europe, thus they sought alternative methods of thuggery here, the military being too small to handle much most of our history.

did you see that j.p. Morgan only had 17% of j.p. Morgan?

he was a front for the red shields.

 

[EdwinA]

did you see that j.p. Morgan only had 17% of j.p. Morgan?

he was a front for the red shields.

There was an article published, by Louis Brandeis, iirc, called 'Other Peoples' Money', that documented the massive interlocking directorships of the big corporations; they knew how to control these behemoths while only owning around 5% of their stock, via directorships.

Ah, here it is.

OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY by Louis D. Brandeis — Louis D. Brandeis School of Law Library

John D. Rockefeller owned 25% of Standard, and his brother William another 10%, but he had pretty much retired from active management by 1880, but still got the blame for a lot of the blame for the abuses by the other directors and owners of the Trust. He busied himself setting up to compete with Carnegie in the steel business, buying up most of the Mesabe iron range and building a steamship fleet to carry the ore. Both Carnegie and Morgan feared his competition so much so that when Morgan wanted to buy out Carnegie and form U.S. Steel he paid Rockefeller over $100 million not to go into the steel business. lol so much for 'competition'.

How many small start ups were bought up for pennies on the dollar or bankrupted by lawfare by Apple and Microsoft? at least dozens. Intel and MS formed a team that drove motherboard manufacturing out of the U.S. by the same tactics.

 

[EdwinA]

One of the reasons both Parties' establishments hate Trump is his bringing back anti-trust enforcement.

 

[EdwinA]

OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY - CHAPTER III — Louis D. Brandeis School of Law Library

The practice of interlocking directorates is the root of many evils. It offends laws human and divine. Applied to rival corporations, it tends to the suppression of competition and to violation of the Sherman law. Applied to corporations which deal with each other, it tends to disloyalty and to violation of the fundamental law that no man can serve two masters. In either event it tends to inefficiency; for it removes incentive and destroys soundness of judgment. It is undemocratic, for it rejects the platform: "A fair field and no favors,"—substituting the pull of privilege for the push of manhood. It is the most potent instrument of the Money Trust. Break the control so exercised by the investment bankers over railroads, public-service and industrial corporations, over banks, life insurance and trust companies, and a long step will have been taken toward attainment of the New Freedom.


The term "Interlocking directorates" is here used in a broad sense as including all intertwined conflicting interests, whatever the form, and by whatever device effected. The objection extends alike to contracts of a corporation whether with one of its directors individually, or with a firm of which he is a member, or with another corporation in which he is interested as an officer or director or stockholder. The objection extends likewise to men holding the inconsistent position of director in two potentially competing corporations, even if those corporations do not actually deal with each other.

The Endless Chain​

A single example will illustrate the vicious circle of control—the endless chain—through which our financial oligarchy now operates:


J. P. Morgan (or a partner), a director of the New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad, causes that company to sell to J. P. Morgan & Co. an issue of bonds. J. P. Morgan & Co. borrow the money with which to pay for the bonds from the Guaranty Trust Company, of which Mr. Morgan (or a partner) is a director. J. P. Morgan & Co. sell the bonds to the Penn Mutual Life Insurance Company, of which Mr. Morgan (or a partner) is a director. The New Haven spends the proceeds of the bonds in purchasing steel rails from the United States Steel Corporation, of which Mr. Morgan (or a partner) is a director. The United States Steel Corporation spends the proceeds of the rails in purchasing electrical supplies from the General Electric Company, of which Mr. Morgan (or a partner) is a director. The General Electric sells supplies to the Western Union Telegraph Company, a subsidiary of the American Telephone and Telegraph Company; and in both Mr. Morgan (or a partner) is a director. The Telegraph Company has an exclusive wire contract with the Reading, of which Mr. Morgan (or a partner) is a director. The Reading buys its passenger cars from the Pullman Company, of which Mr. Morgan (or a partner) is a director. The Pullman Company buys (for local use) locomotives from the Baldwin Locomotive Company, of which Mr. Morgan (or a partner) is a director. The Reading, the General Electric, the Steel Corporation and the New Haven, like the Pullman, buy locomotives from the Baldwin Company. The Steel Corporation, the Telephone Company, the New Haven, the Reading, the Pullman and the Baldwin Companies, like the Western Union, buy electrical supplies from the General Electric. The Baldwin, the Pullman, the Reading, the Telephone, the Telegraph and the General Electric companies, like the New Haven, buy steel products from the Steel Corporation. Each and every one of the companies last named markets its securities through J. P. Morgan & Co.; each deposits its funds with J. P. Morgan & Co.; and with these funds of each, the firm enters upon further operations.


This specific illustration is in part supposititious; but it represents truthfully the operation of interlocking directorates. Only it must be multiplied many times and with many permutations to represent fully the extent to which the interests of a few men are intertwined. Instead of taking the New Haven as the railroad starting point in our example, the New York Central, the Santa Fe, the Southern, the Lehigh Valley, the Chicago and Great Western, the Erie or the Père Marquette might have been selected; instead of the Guaranty Trust Company as the banking reservoir, any one of a dozen other important banks or trust companies; instead of the Penn Mutual as purchaser of the bonds, other insurance companies; instead of the General Electric, its qualified competitor, the Westinghouse Electric and Manufacturing Company. The chain is indeed endless; for each controlled corporation is entwined with many others.


As the nexus of "Big Business" the Steel Corporation stands, of course, preeminent: The Stanley Committee showed that the few men who control the Steel Corporation, itself an owner of important railroads, are directors also in twenty-nine other railroad systems, with 126,000 miles of line (more than half the railroad mileage of the United States), and in important steamship companies. Through all these alliances and the huge traffic it controls, the Steel Corporation's influence pervades railroad and steamship companies—not as carriers only—but as the largest customers for steel. And its influence with users of steel extends much further. These same few men are also directors in twelve steel-using street railway systems, including some of the largest in the world. They are directors in forty machinery and similar steel-using manufacturing companies; in many gas, oil and water companies, extensive users of iron products; and in the great wire-using telephone and telegraph companies. The aggregate assets of these different corporations—through which these few men exert their influence over the business of the United States—exceeds sixteen billion dollars.


Obviously, interlocking directorates, and all that term implies, must be effectually prohibited before the freedom of American business can be regained. The prohibition will not be an innovation. It will merely give full legal sanction to the fundamental law of morals and of human nature: that "No man can serve two masters." The surprising fact is that a principle of equity so firmly rooted should have been departed from at all in dealing with corporations. For no rule of law has, in other connections, been more rigorously applied, than that which prohibits a trustee from occupying inconsistent positions, from dealing with himself, or from using his fiduciary position for personal profit. And a director of a corporation is as obviously a trustee as persons holding similar positions in an unincorporated association, or in a private trust estate, who are called specifically by that name. The Courts have recognized this fully.

FDR busted up this tactic. The technocrats, beginning with JFK, brought it back, beginning with the CD scams.

 

[Into the Night]

monopolies are totally stable in our current condition of fascist enablement.


the startup is eliminated or murdered when the monopoly controls government.

Monopolies do not control government. Corporations are not government. Fascism is not 'enablement'. It is theft.

at best we get cartels.

true free markets REQUIRE monopoply busting.

The free market is immortal. You can't kill it. The free market destroys monopolies as well.

 

[Into the Night]

One group of oligarchs out bribing an older group isn't 'competition' and 'free trade'. Robber barons warred on each other all the time; see the history of railroads and steel for how that works. Harriman against Morgan, Gould against Harridan and Morgan, Carnegie against Gates and Rockefeller, Morgan against Rockefeller, Edison against Westinghouse, Morgan against Westinghouse, Ford against Sloan and Dupont, and on and on. None of it good for consumers and small business, with the possible exception of Ford and his contrarian policy of producing ever cheaper cars, but then he had a gangster as an enforcer and sent his 'social dept.' into his employees homes and decided what they could read and say, so he can't really brag either.

Ford Sociological Department & English School - The Henry Ford

In order to manage a large and diverse workforce, Ford Motor Company created the Sociological Department and English school. Learn more here.

www.thehenryford.org

In order to manage and control such a large and diverse workforce, John R. Lee, Head of Personnel, created the Sociological Department in 1914. The Sociological Department established a system of rules and codes of behavior for Ford employees that they had to meet, in order to qualify for the $5 day pay rate. The Sociological Department monitored employees at home, as well as on the job. Investigators made unannounced visits to employees' homes and evaluated the cleanliness of the home, noted if the family had renters, checked with school attendance offices to determine if children were attending school and monitored bank records to verify that employees made regular deposits. Sociological Department investigators also assisted workers' families by teaching wives about home care, cooking and hygiene.

Sounds benign here, eh? When I say right wing ideologies and left wing ideologies are distinctions without a difference, it;s because it's true. Commies make their oppression sound benign, too, but we all know they love mass murder as a solution to all social and economic problems, and all corporatists consider workers to be their personal property. The only reason the U.S. differed is that private armies were a lot more expensive here than in Europe, thus they sought alternative methods of thuggery here, the military being too small to handle much most of our history.

Oh the 'robber baron' story again...

They brought steel prices down by improving manufacturing techniques, making it affordable for far more people and creating huge industries out of it.
They brought street lighting and electrical power to homes and businesses across the nation, eventually resulting the nation's three power grids.

They made the US economy a powerhouse.

 

[Bai Lan]

Monopolies do not control government. Corporations are not government. Fascism is not 'enablement'. It is theft.

The free market is immortal. You can't kill it. The free market destroys monopolies as well.

sometimes they do.

corporations and governments working together against everyone else is fascism.

monopolies are not to be busted intentionallly for free markets to be somewhat real.

 

[Into the Night]

sometimes they do.

corporations and governments working together against everyone else is fascism.

monopolies are not to be busted intentionallly for free markets to be somewhat real.

Monopolies do control government. Corporations are not fascism.
The free market is real. You can't kill it. It also destroys monopolies.

 

[Bai Lan]

Monopolies do control government. Corporations are not fascism.
The free market is real. You can't kill it. It also destroys monopolies.

corporations are involved in fascism.

monopolies are not fee markets.

the free market can be killed.

 

[Into the Night]

corporations are involved in fascism.

Corporations are not fascism. Redefinition fallacy.

monopolies are not fee markets.

Monopolies are not free markets. Redefinition fallacy.

the free market can be killed.

The free market is immortal. It can't be killed. Not even by the most oppressive of governments.

Go learn English.

 

[EdwinA]

Oh the 'robber baron' story again...

They brought steel prices down by improving manufacturing techniques, making it affordable for far more people and creating huge industries out of it.
They brought street lighting and electrical power to homes and businesses across the nation, eventually resulting the nation's three power grids.

They made the US economy a powerhouse.

Rubbish. They squeezed labor and hired private armies to keep them docile. The public paid through the nose for those railroads, beneficiaries of giant subsidies , free land, free mineral rights, all courtesy of bribed govt. officials. that is what kept their prices 'down', but not nearly as low as they should have been. they profited from massive debt loaded on top of railroads due to pirates like Morgan saddling them with huge interests bearing debts while playing monopoly using the funds to buy more railroads, then saddling those acquisitions with even more huge debts, hence why businesses that should have been money making machines almost all ended up in bankruptcy and the public eating the losses. Carnegie was Tom Scott's butt boy, the most corrupt railroad exec in history.

Tariffs made the U.S. economy a powerhouse. That and a tiny middle class and a large poor population that required constant influxes of desperate disposable immigrants to keep it fueled. Infant morality rates, epidemics, and starvation kept the death tolls high. WW I and its high demand for skilled labor created a larger middle class and better paid working class, with disposable incomes. The financial scams of the 20's wrecked that economic growth, and FDR rescued much of it. while those who kept their wealth hid out on their estates behind private armies and screamed for the fed to kill all the uppity proles they fleeced. Even the sociopath Joseph Kennedy knew what had to be done to keep the country from total collapse, and he and several others were not known for their massive human empathy.

And, re Carnegie, it was his main engineer who invented all the cost savings in manufacturing, plus stealing processes from Britain. Carnegie fucked off 6 months a year playing golf in Scotland and playing Socialist Dilletante, and like most elites wouldn't be caught dead actually practicing what he preached. He paid Frick to do the dirty work and get the bad publicity. Frick was well suited for the job, being a total asshole and sociopath.

Engineers made all the improvements, not people like Carnegie and Morgan.

 

[EdwinA]

corporations are involved in fascism.

monopolies are not fee markets.

the free market can be killed.

Business men hate free markets. They've always worked hard to kill them off and keep competition down or even better non-existent.