Century-old Francis Scott Key monument defaced with 'racist anthem' in Baltimore

noise said:
simplistic garbage.
an example of how absolutism denies the reality of the times being discussed
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No - it isn't. When you make the decision to fight to preserve slavery, all other considerations are out the window. That's a decision you're making w/ your legacy. When Nazi commanders & soldiers decided to fight for Hitler, it didn't matter to their historical legacy that they might have just been fighting for their families & homeland. Know why? Because they decided to be Nazis, with all that entails.

Your position on this is absurd - particularly since I have no doubt you didn't utter a peep of protest when some historical figures were being written about & remembered in terms that were likely more glowing than they deserved. This has just become a Trump issue for you.
 
Thing1 said:
No - it isn't. When you make the decision to fight to preserve slavery, all other considerations are out the window. That's a decision you're making w/ your legacy. When Nazi commanders & soldiers decided to fight for Hitler, it didn't matter to their historical legacy that they might have just been fighting for their families & homeland. Know why? Because they decided to be Nazis, with all that entails.

Your position on this is absurd - particularly since I have no doubt you didn't utter a peep of protest when some historical figures were being written about & remembered in terms that were likely more glowing than they deserved. This has just become a Trump issue for you.
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So, when does the Jefferson monument come down lol?

Since you brought up absurd.
 
Threedee said:
That is how southerners viewed patriotism at the time; it is what allowed for them to secede. Real Americans viewed patriotism as loyalty to the nation as a whole, and to the ideals enshrined in our national documents. They viewed treason as it is outlined in the Constitution - as offenses committed against the US as a nation.
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I love how you separate "real" Americans from Confederate states -ignoring the concept both sides were Americans-
the very definition of a Civil War.
 
Thing1 said:
No - it isn't. When you make the decision to fight to preserve slavery, all other considerations are out the window. That's a decision you're making w/ your legacy. When Nazi commanders & soldiers decided to fight for Hitler, it didn't matter to their historical legacy that they might have just been fighting for their families & homeland. Know why? Because they decided to be Nazis, with all that entails.

Your position on this is absurd - particularly since I have no doubt you didn't utter a peep of protest when some historical figures were being written about & remembered in terms that were likely more glowing than they deserved. This has just become a Trump issue for you.
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most confused and erratic rant I have read on this thread.congrats.
I am not even going to try and deconstruct Nazi's from German Wehrmacht. In some cases.
I would assure you many Germans fought for the Fatherland and not Nazism - but your post is such a word salad there is really no use in getting into it further.

Most laughable is throwing Trump into the mix!! :rolleyes:
 
anatta said:
I love how you separate "real" Americans from Confederate states -ignoring the concept both sides were Americans-
the very definition of a Civil War.
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"Civil War" was a term that did not come into wide use until after 1865, and after the defeat of the southern traitors.

During the war, southerners called the conflict the War of Northern Aggression, the War for Southern Independence, or some permutation of thereof.
To this day, I have met people in the south do not call it the civil war. They viewed it as a rebellion, a war of independence (for the south).
 
Covfefe said:
Yes, but there aren't many of those and I just want a complete picture of our Founders, flaws and all.
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So do I..it requires NOT vandalizing Columbus statues, or F Scott Key - or Jefferson for that matter.
As I mentioned earlier that's how US history is being taught -so called "warts and all"

But that's not enough for the PC/absolutists! They are intent on throwing out the baby with the bathwater both..
 
Cypress said:
"Civil War" was a term that did not come into wide use until after 1865, and after the defeat of the southern traitors.

During the war, southerners called the conflict the War of Northern Aggression, the War for Southern Independence, or some permutation of thereof.
To this day, I have met people in the south do not call it the civil war. They viewed it as a rebellion, a war of independence (for the south).
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I have heard that, and I have read otherwise that the "War of Northern Aggression" (etc.) was actually coined afterwards. So i am not sure on any of this: from wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_American_Civil_War#War_of_Northern.2FSouthern_Aggression
War of Northern/Southern Aggression

The name "War of Northern Aggression" has been used to indicate the Union side as the belligerent party in the war.[22] Though sometimes used only jokingly today,[23] the name arose in the 1950s during the Jim Crow era, when it was coined by segregationists who tried to equate contemporary efforts to end segregation with 19th century efforts to abolish slavery.[24][25] This name has been criticized by historians such as James M. McPherson,[26] as the Confederacy "took the initiative by seceding in defiance of an election of a president by a constitutional majority",[26] and as "the Confederacy started the war by firing on the American flag".[26]

Conversely, the "War of Southern Aggression" has been used by those who maintain that the Confederacy was the belligerent party. They maintain the thought that the Confederacy started the war when they initiated combat at Fort Sumt
 
anatta said:
I have heard that, and I have read otherwise that the "War of Northern Aggression" (etc.) was actually coined afterwards. So i am not sure on any of this: from wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_American_Civil_War#War_of_Northern.2FSouthern_Aggression
War of Northern/Southern Aggression

The name "War of Northern Aggression" has been used to indicate the Union side as the belligerent party in the war.[22] Though sometimes used only jokingly today,[23] the name arose in the 1950s during the Jim Crow era, when it was coined by segregationists who tried to equate contemporary efforts to end segregation with 19th century efforts to abolish slavery.[24][25] This name has been criticized by historians such as James M. McPherson,[26] as the Confederacy "took the initiative by seceding in defiance of an election of a president by a constitutional majority",[26] and as "the Confederacy started the war by firing on the American flag".[26]

Conversely, the "War of Southern Aggression" has been used by those who maintain that the Confederacy was the belligerent party. They maintain the thought that the Confederacy started the war when they initiated combat at Fort Sumt
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You are playing word games.

Technically, everybody in the western hemisphere is an "American".

The southerner rebels wanted their own country. Where their slave economy would be unmolested: The Confederate States of America. They did not want to be part of the United States of America, our country. There were willing to kill and wage war on American soldiers serving under the flag of the United States to secede from our nation, take our land, and form their own nation.

Treason, by any definition.
George Washington and the Continental Congress wanted to hang Benedict Arnold for far less.
 
anatta said:
I love how you separate "real" Americans from Confederate states -ignoring the concept both sides were Americans-
the very definition of a Civil War.
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Threedee is the outlier in this. He has some sort of obsession with dead Confederates.

What's driving the issue nationally are the far left extremists---the Antifa/BLM types. And I think democrats should be made to own them, and their actions, like we have to answer for every Nazi or white supremacist that falls out of the woodwork.

And I think independents will pick up on the glaring hypocrisy when they don't.
 
Cypress said:
You are playing word games.

Technically, everybody in the western hemisphere is an "American".

The southerner rebels wanted their own country. Where their slave economy would be unmolested: The Confederate States of America. They did not want to be part of the United States of America, our country. There were willing to kill and wage war on American soldiers serving under the flag of the United States to secede from our nation, take our land, and form their own nation.

Treason, by any definition.
George Washington and the Continental Congress wanted to hang Benedict Arnold for far less.
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whenever you are loosing an argument to me you fallback on "word games"..feel free to play your own!
word have meanings. the closer and more exact your meanings, the more relevance your post holds
++

My point was of course it was a Civil War,and by that very definition it was a war between Americans.
Note the Confederacy titled itself "Confederate States of America"- still very much American people -
but under a separate government due to ( perceived) abuses by the north.

Most telling is the link I showed where it appears the term "Civil War" was used by Lincoln ,
and most people of that time period.
 
anatta said:
So do I..it requires NOT vandalizing Columbus statues, or F Scott Key - or Jefferson for that matter.
As I mentioned earlier that's how US history is being taught -so called "warts and all"

But that's not enough for the PC/absolutists! They are intent on throwing out the baby with the bathwater both..
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None of us debating you approve of vandalism or violence, you need to drop the narrative that we do.
 
Darth Omar said:
Threedee is the outlier in this. He has some sort of obsession with dead Confederates.

What's driving the issue nationally are the far left extremists---the Antifa/BLM types. And I think democrats should be made to own them, and their actions, like we have to answer for every Nazi or white supremacist that falls out of the woodwork.

And I think independents will pick up on the glaring hypocrisy when they don't.
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Dead Confederates and Germans. I think ALL Germans dead or alive?

But 3-D is a decent dude.
 
anatta said:
I love how you separate "real" Americans from Confederate states -ignoring the concept both sides were Americans-
the very definition of a Civil War.
Click to expand...

Even if you view the Confederates as Americans (they were not, seeing as how Americans are US citizens/residents), the fact that the CSA was not fighting to control DC, and thus the American system of government, means it was not really a civil war. Even in the narrative of Lincoln, where the secessionists represented an illegal rebellion, nowhere is there an argument that the south was fighting for control of DC.

The English Civil War was fought for control over London. The Russian Reds and Whites fought for control over Moscow. The same with Peking, when the Chinese Communists fought the Nationalists.
 
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