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The Republicans didn't "agree" to anything. The cuts had to sunset:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/26312.html

Yes, they did dork. They were told by senate dems that they, dems, would raise the Byrd rule. Until the Bush Tax cuts sub paragraph e. of the Byrd rule had not been successful with tax cut bills~

To understand sunset provision history as it specifically relates to the Bush Tax cuts go here

From page 7 of the report:

When Congress began work on the
reconciliation legislation, the Byrd rule became an important
issue in the Senate debate.45 Senate Democrats
put the Republicans on notice that they would raise a
Byrd rule point of order against the bill unless the tax
cuts expired at the end of the 10-year period covered
by the bill, and the Senate Parliamentarian apparently
indicated that he would advise the presiding officer to
sustain the point of order.46
Anticipating a Byrd rule objection, the Finance Committee
included two provisions in the reconciliation
bill. The first, section 1501, sunsets the tax cuts on
December 31, 2009 (the last day covered by the bill),
thereby complying with the Byrd rule. The second,
section 1502, revived all of the tax cuts one day later.
With this combination of provisions, the committee
shifted the focus of a Byrd rule point of order away
from the entire bill and onto the single provision, section
1502, that revived the tax cuts.
When the Senate floor debate began, the ranking
Democratic member of the Finance Committee, Senator
Daniel Patrick Moynihan, D-N.Y., announced that he
would raise the Byrd rule point of order. Before doing
so, he put the procedural dispute in context, explaining
that “the budget reconciliation process was devised to
expedite consideration of deficit reduction measures,”
whereas “the bill before us uses those same expedited
procedures to secure enactment of a deficit-increasing
measure.” Then, he raised the specific objection:
[T]he Byrd rule provides that any provision in
any reconciliation bill which would decrease
revenues used beyond the budget window — in
this case beyond the year 2009 — may be automatically
stricken from the bill upon a point of
order being raised. Section 1502 of the bill before
us provides for permanent continuation of tax
cuts in the years beyond 2009, causing revenue
losses of hundreds of billions of dollars.47
Shortly after Senator Moynihan spoke, the chairman
of the Senate Finance Committee, Senator William V.
Roth, R-Del., moved to waive the Byrd rule and
responded to Moynihan:
[T]he point of order against section 1502 is made
necessary by the antiquated provisions of the
Budget Act whose provisions were drawn to
function in an era of deficits. . . .
Nevertheless, we must contend with the language
of [subparagraph (E)], which forbids any reconciliation
bill from achieving a net reduction in
revenue beyond the 10 years for which the committee
was instructed.
 


From your link:

The lack of controversy did not necessarily reflect support for the sunset as a matter of tax policy. Rather, it reflected the inextricable connection between the reconciliation process and the Byrd rule. Republicans had sought to use the reconciliation process to protect the tax cut from the ordinary rules of Senate debate. That decision was controversial. Democrats objected, arguing that reconciliation was limited to bills that reduced the deficit. Further, they insisted that if the reconciliation process was used, all of the procedural limitations of the Byrd rule would apply, and a strict application of the Byrd rule would require tax cuts to expire at the end of the period covered by the bill. Thus, those who advocated the use of the reconciliation process understood, however grudgingly, that doing so would require the tax cuts to sunset.


Because they used the reconciliation process, the tax cuts had to sunset.
 
Just saying it over and over does not make it so. Yes, they had to sunset, but ONLY because dems forced the issue.

But it's not just me saying it over and over. The person that you linked to as an authority on the subject is saying it. The Tax Foundation is saying it. I figured you'd reject whatever I have to say but I figured you would accept the word of your very own source and the word of a right-wing anti-tax group. I guess your block-headed ignorance is bi-partisan.

And I'm not disagreeing with you that they would have made them permanent if they could have. All I'm saying is that they couldn't make them permanent under the rules of the Senate unless they came up with corresponding spending cuts to account for the projected losses in revenue. Of course, Republicans had no plans to cut spending so they had to include the sunset.
 
But it's not just me saying it over and over. The person that you linked to as an authority on the subject is saying it. The Tax Foundation is saying it. I figured you'd reject whatever I have to say but I figured you would accept the word of your very own source and the word of a right-wing anti-tax group. I guess your block-headed ignorance is bi-partisan.

And I'm not disagreeing with you that they would have made them permanent if they could have. All I'm saying is that they couldn't make them permanent under the rules of the Senate unless they came up with corresponding spending cuts to account for the projected losses in revenue. Of course, Republicans had no plans to cut spending so they had to include the sunset.

That's not true though if they had 60 votes right?
 
But it's not just me saying it over and over. The person that you linked to as an authority on the subject is saying it. The Tax Foundation is saying it. I figured you'd reject whatever I have to say but I figured you would accept the word of your very own source and the word of a right-wing anti-tax group. I guess your block-headed ignorance is bi-partisan.

And I'm not disagreeing with you that they would have made them permanent if they could have. All I'm saying is that they couldn't make them permanent under the rules of the Senate unless they came up with corresponding spending cuts to account for the projected losses in revenue. Of course, Republicans had no plans to cut spending so they had to include the sunset.

The pdf I linked to showed without a doubt that rep senators had no choice in the matter. The link took a historical look at why and how it came about. Daschle himself raised a point of order on two previous tax cuts and was unsuccessful...If senate republicans could have won on the floor there would be no sunset provision, but because dems had already stated their position they were left with no choice but to accept the provisions of the Byrd rule ...
 
That's not true though if they had 60 votes right?

True, then they could gave fought it out on the floor. That said the dems never even had to rasie a point of order. It's important to note that until Bush's tax cuts the Byrd rule had not been successful. Daschle had raised points of order previously on tax cut bills- he lost, but the subparagraph E allowed for tax cuts to continue to be challenged.
 
regardless of details... How it will be assumed by the vast majority of voters in this country is that the Democrats raised there taxes. By design or luck the Democrats have no choice but to extend the tax cuts by any means necessary or risk being completely swept out of office in 2012.
 
The pdf I linked to showed without a doubt that rep senators had no choice in the matter. The link took a historical look at why and how it came about. Daschle himself raised a point of order on two previous tax cuts and was unsuccessful...If senate republicans could have won on the floor there would be no sunset provision, but because dems had already stated their position they were left with no choice but to accept the provisions of the Byrd rule ...


Shorter ID: The Republicans had to include the sunset provisions because the Byrd rule required it, just like Nigel has said.
 
Again, back to hypothetical irrelevancies.

In any event, No. It's still true even if they had eleventy billion votes because they were proceeding under reconciliation rules.

So then why did the article you posted say because the Republicans could not be sure they could get 60 votes they had to proceed under reconcilliation?

One of you is off here. If the article says what I stated above and you say they would have proceeded the same way if they had 100 votes in the Senate.
 
Shorter ID: The Republicans had to include the sunset provisions because the Byrd rule required it, just like Nigel has said.

No, they did not "have" to include it. The dems forced the inclusion by- 1st raising a point of order and 2nd- by challenging previously ruled on points of order with regrads to tax cuts. The article I posted, had you chosen to read it in its entirety, made clear that understanding, interpreting and applying the byrd rule was in and of its self a bit incongruent. Subparagraph E left room for challenge and was successful for senate dems on Bush Tax cuts, though it had previously been unsuccessful on two previous tax cut bills. Had senate republicans the 60 votes neccesary no sunset provision would have ever been attached. Had they won the point of order raised no sunset provision would have been attached and indeed they hoped for enough votes in the next election to revisit the tax cuts.
 
So then why did the article you posted say because the Republicans could not be sure they could get 60 votes they had to proceed under reconcilliation?

One of you is off here. If the article says what I stated above and you say they would have proceeded the same way if they had 100 votes in the Senate.


Actually, you're right. I was mistaken. Under the Byrd Rule, a Senator can raise a point of order that something violates the Byrd Rule. 60 votes are required to vote down the point of order. If the point of order is sustained, the offending provisions are stricken from the bill.

Thus, the Republicans could sunset the bill, find corresponding spending cuts or secure 60 votes against a point of order.

At least, that's my understanding.
 
No, they did not "have" to include it. The dems forced the inclusion by- 1st raising a point of order and 2nd- by challenging previously ruled on points of order with regrads to tax cuts. The article I posted, had you chosen to read it in its entirety, made clear that understanding, interpreting and applying the byrd rule was in and of its self a bit incongruent. Subparagraph E left room for challenge and was successful for senate dems on Bush Tax cuts, though it had previously been unsuccessful on two previous tax cut bills. Had senate republicans the 60 votes neccesary no sunset provision would have ever been attached. Had they won the point of order raised no sunset provision would have been attached and indeed they hoped for enough votes in the next election to revisit the tax cuts.


Right, the Byrd Rule required the tax cuts to sunset, like I said.
 
Actually, you're right. I was mistaken. Under the Byrd Rule, a Senator can raise a point of order that something violates the Byrd Rule. 60 votes are required to vote down the point of order. If the point of order is sustained, the offending provisions are stricken from the bill.

Thus, the Republicans could sunset the bill, find corresponding spending cuts or secure 60 votes against a point of order.

At least, that's my understanding.

So had the Republicans been able to secure more Democratic votes in the Senate they would not have had to go to reconcilliation then.
 
Right, the Byrd Rule required the tax cuts to sunset, like I said.

here is what you actually said/claimed

"That's just not true. The very reason for the expiration date was two fold: (1) since the Republicans utilized reconciliation procedures to pass the tax cuts, according to the Byrd Rule, because the tax cuts increased the deficit, they were required to sunset after 10 years and (2) because the deficit projections beyond the ten year window showed ballooning deficits, the Republicans like the sunset provision because it hid the ginormous deficits projected to result from the cuts."

The republicans did not "use" the reconcilliation act, they were left no choice by senate dems. Had dems lost on the point of order, no sunset provision would have been attached.
 
here is what you actually said/claimed

"That's just not true. The very reason for the expiration date was two fold: (1) since the Republicans utilized reconciliation procedures to pass the tax cuts, according to the Byrd Rule, because the tax cuts increased the deficit, they were required to sunset after 10 years and (2) because the deficit projections beyond the ten year window showed ballooning deficits, the Republicans like the sunset provision because it hid the ginormous deficits projected to result from the cuts."

The republicans did not "use" the reconcilliation act, they were left no choice by senate dems. Had dems lost on the point of order, no sunset provision would have been attached.


No, like I said, the Republicans elected to proceed under reconciliation rules and that choice required the bill to comply with the Byrd Rule. The Republicans could have chosen to follow ordinary procedures if they wished.
 
So had the Republicans been able to secure more Democratic votes in the Senate they would not have had to go to reconcilliation then.


If the Republicans thought they could defeat a filibuster they could have chosen not to proceed under reconciliation rules. Having chosen to proceed under reconciliation rules, the Republicans could have avoided the requirements of the Byrd Rule (sunset or offsets) with 60 votes against a point of order.
 
Whatever rules they followed, if that calculator and the link is correct, my taxes are scheduled to jump $2000. I hate political games....and think the republicans have played one at this point.
 
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