CA moves to ban natural gas heaters

T. A. Gardner said:
Retrofitting a home to use electric appliances in place of gas involves some serious money.
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California plans on stop installing new ones in 2030. There is no talk of retrofitting houses, except when the homeowner wants to. Obviously, the heaters installed up to 2030 will one day need replacing.

Seriously, heat pumps are so much more efficient, and allow you to use whatever energy source is available. It might make sense to replace a gas heater, especially if it is old.

And sometimes the electric stuff is more comfortable. I get as long of hot showers as I want now that I went with an instant water heater. The old gas or oil heated water heaters used to have their pipes break off in their tanks, and you would get only 5 minutes of hot water. It was terrible.
 
ExpressLane said:
They had better improve the reliability of their electrical grid.
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That is true for California, it is true for Texas, and it is true for just about everywhere else. Not just the reliability, but also the ability to handle very different sources. The age of electrical grids delivering power solely from large generators is over.

What disturbs me is America knows we have to develop smart grids, and yet Republicans are fighting so hard against it. We may well have to buy our smart grid from foreign countries.
 
Walt said:
California plans on stop installing new ones in 2030. There is no talk of retrofitting houses, except when the homeowner wants to. Obviously, the heaters installed up to 2030 will one day need replacing.

Seriously, heat pumps are so much more efficient, and allow you to use whatever energy source is available. It might make sense to replace a gas heater, especially if it is old.

And sometimes the electric stuff is more comfortable. I get as long of hot showers as I want now that I went with an instant water heater. The old gas or oil heated water heaters used to have their pipes break off in their tanks, and you would get only 5 minutes of hot water. It was terrible.
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They are discontinuing their use. When gas appliances die, break, etc., after 2030 you will have to replace them.

The average instant water heater draws somewhere between 100 and 150 amps at 240 VAC. Most places, that spike in your electric use will drive your bill up on its own. Aside from that issue, it puts a strain on the grid for lots of people to be using those as collectively they represent a significant source of load spiking.
As for the plumbing on a tankless versus a tank water heater, the former often requires new lines at great expense to be run due to the need for greater water volume than with a tanked water heater. Either can experience hard water scale and corrosion. That's a function of the water going through them and the materials they are made from.
 
Walt said:
That is true for California, it is true for Texas, and it is true for just about everywhere else. Not just the reliability, but also the ability to handle very different sources. The age of electrical grids delivering power solely from large generators is over.

What disturbs me is America knows we have to develop smart grids, and yet Republicans are fighting so hard against it. We may well have to buy our smart grid from foreign countries.
Click to expand...

We don't need a smart grid if we use smart sources of energy. If we use stupid ones, like wind and solar, we're fucked no matter what we do. A grid based on large generators is the only smart way to go. Nuclear is best if you want "zero carbon." Solar and wind are nothing short of idiotic.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
They are discontinuing their use. When gas appliances die, break, etc., after 2030 you will have to replace them.
Click to expand...

Currently only the heaters will start to be phased out in 2030. You can usually get a variance to replace something that has been phased out for 20 years, so that means in 2050, you will begin to need to buy a new heat pump when your old heater dies. Heaters can be kept going for 50 years, so between 2050 and 2100 they will be replaced.

Or put another way, you cannot keep lighting your house with whale oil. You need to buy a lightbulb. I reassure you, they are cheaper.

T. A. Gardner said:
As for the plumbing on a tankless versus a tank water heater, the former often requires new lines at great expense to be run due to the need for greater water volume than with a tanked water heater.
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The tank does not store water for use, it stores hot water, because it takes time to create hot water. Or put another way, the tank is never empty of water (or should never be empty). The amount of water flowing out is the same as the water flowing in. There is no need to change the water supply.

It uses less energy, so your bills will be lower. The cost is that you need a serious electric line going to the tankless heater, and your house needs enough electricity... BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT CALIFORNIA... I do not know if you have noticed, but it tends to get hot there, so they already usually have modern electricity to the houses to power the air conditioning.

There is a very neat microwave technology for heating water with electricity coming along that will be the most efficient water heater yet.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
We don't need a smart grid if we use smart sources of energy. If we use stupid ones, like wind and solar, we're fucked no matter what we do. A grid based on large generators is the only smart way to go. Nuclear is best if you want "zero carbon." Solar and wind are nothing short of idiotic.
Click to expand...

Nuclear is a very good idea, but it tends to give the same amount of power round the clock. It would be just plain stupid not to upgrade to a smart grid.
 
Walt said:
Nuclear is a very good idea, but it tends to give the same amount of power round the clock. It would be just plain stupid not to upgrade to a smart grid.
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Nuclear is for base load. That's about 70 to 80% of the grid usage. The variable load portion is best handled by natural gas peaking plants using gas turbines. Solar and wind suck and should be abandoned almost entirely.
 
Walt said:
Currently only the heaters will start to be phased out in 2030. You can usually get a variance to replace something that has been phased out for 20 years, so that means in 2050, you will begin to need to buy a new heat pump when your old heater dies. Heaters can be kept going for 50 years, so between 2050 and 2100 they will be replaced.

Or put another way, you cannot keep lighting your house with whale oil. You need to buy a lightbulb. I reassure you, they are cheaper.



The tank does not store water for use, it stores hot water, because it takes time to create hot water. Or put another way, the tank is never empty of water (or should never be empty). The amount of water flowing out is the same as the water flowing in. There is no need to change the water supply.

It uses less energy, so your bills will be lower. The cost is that you need a serious electric line going to the tankless heater, and your house needs enough electricity... BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT CALIFORNIA... I do not know if you have noticed, but it tends to get hot there, so they already usually have modern electricity to the houses to power the air conditioning.

There is a very neat microwave technology for heating water with electricity coming along that will be the most efficient water heater yet.
Click to expand...

Your lack of knowledge on home appliances is astounding...
 
On tankless hot water heaters:

A typical install for electrical costs in material $20 a foot for the wire (typically 2/2G NM cable), not including mark up. The breaker right now is about $100, again not including mark up. Conduit and other materials, if necessary add on to that. Labor is typically $500 to $750. That puts the total electrical at $1000 to $1500. The plumbers charge on top of that.

Yea, I've installed a few. Worst part is, on most the manufacturer doesn't leave enough room to make the wiring connections easy inside the unit.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
On tankless hot water heaters:

A typical install for electrical costs in material $20 a foot for the wire (typically 2/2G NM cable), not including mark up. The breaker right now is about $100, again not including mark up. Conduit and other materials, if necessary add on to that. Labor is typically $500 to $750. That puts the total electrical at $1000 to $1500. The plumbers charge on top of that.

Yea, I've installed a few. Worst part is, on most the manufacturer doesn't leave enough room to make the wiring connections easy inside the unit.
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Not to mention the KW rating of those units.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
Retrofitting a home to use electric appliances in place of gas involves some serious money. This is just going to be another major hit on consumers in Cali, particularly renters since landlords will pass the costs on in rent increases.
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We are a great economy


We even get help from state programs to retrofit for things like this



Your state is too poor to understand
 
We have programs all over the state for replacing old windows and the like



We are a prosperous state and can plan programs like that



These programs even manage to save us tax dollars over the long haul



States that are too stupid and too poor just don’t understand
 
Walt said:
Currently only the heaters will start to be phased out in 2030. You can usually get a variance to replace something that has been phased out for 20 years, so that means in 2050, you will begin to need to buy a new heat pump when your old heater dies. Heaters can be kept going for 50 years, so between 2050 and 2100 they will be replaced.

Or put another way, you cannot keep lighting your house with whale oil. You need to buy a lightbulb. I reassure you, they are cheaper.



The tank does not store water for use, it stores hot water, because it takes time to create hot water. Or put another way, the tank is never empty of water (or should never be empty). The amount of water flowing out is the same as the water flowing in. There is no need to change the water supply.

It uses less energy, so your bills will be lower. The cost is that you need a serious electric line going to the tankless heater, and your house needs enough electricity... BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT CALIFORNIA... I do not know if you have noticed, but it tends to get hot there, so they already usually have modern electricity to the houses to power the air conditioning.

There is a very neat microwave technology for heating water with electricity coming along that will be the most efficient water heater yet.
Click to expand...

Sweet


Innovation


The power of a better idea


I love capitalism


Well regulated and properly taxed it’s just unbeatable
 
T. A. Gardner said:
On tankless hot water heaters:

A typical install for electrical costs in material $20 a foot for the wire (typically 2/2G NM cable), not including mark up. The breaker right now is about $100, again not including mark up. Conduit and other materials, if necessary add on to that. Labor is typically $500 to $750. That puts the total electrical at $1000 to $1500. The plumbers charge on top of that.

Yea, I've installed a few. Worst part is, on most the manufacturer doesn't leave enough room to make the wiring connections easy inside the unit.
Click to expand...

T. A. Gardner said:
As for the plumbing on a tankless versus a tank water heater, the former often requires new lines at great expense to be run due to the need for greater water volume than with a tanked water heater.
Click to expand...

You have installed a few, and do not know that they do not require greater water volume. Tanked water heaters only put out as much water as they take in, so they require the amount of volume you are using to be available. There is no change when dealing with a tankless water heater. The tank is not filling up and emptying... Or should not be emptying. If you tanked water heater is empty, and turns on, it will do a lot of damage, and might even burn down the house.

As for the expensive of the electrical line, your numbers are a bit high, but it does cost money. Home improvement and maintenance does cost money.
 
Walt said:
You have installed a few, and do not know that they do not require greater water volume. Tanked water heaters only put out as much water as they take in, so they require the amount of volume you are using to be available. There is no change when dealing with a tankless water heater. The tank is not filling up and emptying... Or should not be emptying. If you tanked water heater is empty, and turns on, it will do a lot of damage, and might even burn down the house.

As for the expensive of the electrical line, your numbers are a bit high, but it does cost money. Home improvement and maintenance does cost money.
Click to expand...

Like vacuum break flush systems, the volume of water has to be increased instantaneously and be sufficient that when heated, won't cause a failure of the system from getting too hot. These systems normally have a flow meter inside and require a pretty substantial amount of water flow to work. On many older homes, the plumbing isn't sized to allow that to happen. That is, you might need 3/4" piping to get the volume necessary at your current water pressure instead of the 1/2" line that's currently available.

As for the electrical, I'm using the numbers from what I've had to pay for the materials to do these lately. My labor costs are lower, but the material costs are spot on.
 
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