Americans Paying Record Electricity Prices

[T. A. Gardner]

Explain why EV's that did not have more utility in the time you are pointing at 100+ years ago, than a horse and buggy, now do have more utility?

What is the consideration NOW that changed that equation to favor the EV over the horse and buggy?

The #1 reason is that electricity is NOT PORTABLE. You can't buy say 50 kw of electricity and take it with you. The horse and buggy disappeared not because of ICE vehicles per se but because motor vehicles, battery or gasoline powered, were far, far more efficient and cost effective.

On the other hand, EV's offer nothing better in terms of efficiency or cost effectiveness compared to ICE vehicles. Sure, they don't emit CO2, but that is not a compelling reason for 95% of the population to run out and buy one. If you take a Tesla and put it next to say, a Lexus, what's the major advantage that the Tesla has other than no emissions?

That's the bottom-line problem with EV's. They offer nothing worth switching unless you are a greentard.

 

[QP!]

The #1 reason is that electricity is NOT PORTABLE. You can't buy say 50 kw of electricity and take it with you. The horse and buggy disappeared not because of ICE vehicles per se but because motor vehicles, battery or gasoline powered, were far, far more efficient and cost effective.

On the other hand, EV's offer nothing better in terms of efficiency or cost effectiveness compared to ICE vehicles. Sure, they don't emit CO2, but that is not a compelling reason for 95% of the population to run out and buy one. If you take a Tesla and put it next to say, a Lexus, what's the major advantage that the Tesla has other than no emissions?

That's the bottom-line problem with EV's. They offer nothing worth switching unless you are a greentard.

Terry, for one hundred years before there was gas stations farmers and home owners with cars made their own fuel on their land and it WAS PORTABLE. They could carry it with them to refuel.

And YET the ICE automobile was a laughing stock failure as compared to the horse and buggy as a true form of utility and value and seen as only a play thing of the rich that needed to get towed home OFTEN by a reliable horse and buggy.

It was NOT the portibality of gasoline (which ALWAYS existed) and was the advent of gas stations being put up across the country that was the game changer.

Something that SUDDENLY allowed the ICE vehicle to out compete the horse and buggy.

At the very same time EV's could not out compete the horse and buggy nor ICE as they had no such fueling stations and thus suffered what ICE did prior. EXACT SAME.

Now EV's are getting fueling stations (charging stations) and they can FINALLY out compete the horse and buggy and that is a DIRECT RESULT of the charging stations without which they would not.


So again i ask you 'do you agree that charging stations allowed EV's to also have more utility than the horse and buggy' or are you still arguing that they made no impact and the results from over 100 years ago when BOTH ICE and Horse and buggy out competed EV's is all that matters?

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Terry, for one hundred years before there was gas stations farmers and home owners with cars made their own fuel on their land and it WAS PORTABLE. They could carry it with them to refuel.

If you mean horses and horse drawn wagons, sure. But the second they could buy a tractor to plow with, buy a truck to haul their produce with, buy a combine to harvest their wheat with, they did it. Why? Because those gasoline powered machines were massively more efficient than horses.

How the Tractor has Saved Humanity

No invention has had a greater impact on farming than the tractor.

yohta-blog.yokohama-oht.com

In the 1920's tractors changed American farms into the most productive in the world by far. By losing horses and using tractors, farmers became incredibly more productive. By eliminating horses and reducing the horse population they reclaimed almost a third of their farmed acreage for crops that could be sold versus producing feed for their horses.

Plowing an acre of land with horses took two hours. Plowing it with a tractor--in 1920--took 30 minutes. The choice was obvious. Gasoline and internal combustion were the way to go.

And YET the ICE automobile was a laughing stock failure as compared to the horse and buggy as a true form of utility and value and seen as only a play thing of the rich that needed to get towed home OFTEN by a reliable horse and buggy.

Wrong! ICE vehicles blew horses and buggies away in efficiency.

It was NOT the portibality of gasoline (which ALWAYS existed) and was the advent of gas stations being put up across the country that was the game changer.

Portability was the key. Gas stations were just more efficient.

Something that SUDDENLY allowed the ICE vehicle to out compete the horse and buggy.

ICE vehicles out competed the horse regardless. That's why they were adopted and horses dropped.

At the very same time EV's could not out compete the horse and buggy nor ICE as they had no such fueling stations and thus suffered what ICE did prior. EXACT SAME.

EV's were roughly as efficient as ICE vehicles even back in the 1910's. The problem was the fuel wasn't portable. If you're a farmer with a ICE tractor and an ICE truck, you can go to town and buy 20 to 50 gallons of gasoline and return to your farm. You can't recharge your EV vehicle's batteries when your farm has no electricity on it.

Now EV's are getting fueling stations (charging stations) and they can FINALLY out compete the horse and buggy and that is a DIRECT RESULT of the charging stations without which they would not.

EV charging stations are fixed. If there isn't one where you need it, you are screwed. ICE vehicles can carry extra fuel with them when necessary.

So again i ask you 'do you agree that charging stations allowed EV's to also have more utility than the horse and buggy' or are you still arguing that they made no impact and the results from over 100 years ago when BOTH ICE and Horse and buggy out competed EV's is all that matters?

I already stated EV's are more efficient than horses and wagons, and in an urban setting, even in 1910, they were workable. The problem is they aren't more efficient than ICE vehicles and ICE vehicles are more flexible in their use than EV's. ICE vehicles were the better choice for the 90% of the nation in 1910 that didn't have electricity. That's still the case today for rural areas even if basic electricity is available there.

 

[QP!]

If you mean horses and horse drawn wagons, sure. But the second they could buy a tractor to plow with, buy a truck to haul their produce with, buy a combine to harvest their wheat with, they did it. Why? Because those gasoline powered machines were massively more efficient than horses.

How the Tractor has Saved Humanity

No invention has had a greater impact on farming than the tractor.

yohta-blog.yokohama-oht.com

In the 1920's tractors changed American farms into the most productive in the world by far. By losing horses and using tractors, farmers became incredibly more productive. By eliminating horses and reducing the horse population they reclaimed almost a third of their farmed acreage for crops that could be sold versus producing feed for their horses.

Plowing an acre of land with horses took two hours. Plowing it with a tractor--in 1920--took 30 minutes. The choice was obvious. Gasoline and internal combustion were the way to go.


Wrong! ICE vehicles blew horses and buggies away in efficiency.


Portability was the key. Gas stations were just more efficient.


ICE vehicles out competed the horse regardless. That's why they were adopted and horses dropped.


EV's were roughly as efficient as ICE vehicles even back in the 1910's. The problem was the fuel wasn't portable. If you're a farmer with a ICE tractor and an ICE truck, you can go to town and buy 20 to 50 gallons of gasoline and return to your farm. You can't recharge your EV vehicle's batteries when your farm has no electricity on it.


EV charging stations are fixed. If there isn't one where you need it, you are screwed. ICE vehicles can carry extra fuel with them when necessary.

I already stated EV's are more efficient than horses and wagons, and in an urban setting, even in 1910, they were workable. The problem is they aren't more efficient than ICE vehicles and ICE vehicles are more flexible in their use than EV's. ICE vehicles were the better choice for the 90% of the nation in 1910 that didn't have electricity. That's still the case today for rural areas even if basic electricity is available there.

Not wrong.

Before there was such a thing as a gas station for over 100 years people who owned ICE vehicles could carry fuel in a container and yet ICE vehicles were still a laughing stock and play toy of the rich and had almost no utility for regular people.

It was gas stations that changed it and NOT being able to carry fuel which they could do on day one when they discovered fuel. You are simply wrong.

BOTH ICE and EV's could not compete with the horse and buggy in those days. ICE surpassed horse and buggy and EV's when they got fueling stations.

You are now saying EV's have not surpassed the horse and buggy because you are saying we do not consider how charging stations have changed the utility of the EV.


Do you even understand that is your point, Terry?

You have stated EV charging stations have no value in the discussion of an EV's utility since the early 1900's and all the data was in at that point as to their value.

Do you agree that is your point? Do you understand your own point?

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Not wrong.

Before there was such a thing as a gas station for over 100 years people who owned ICE vehicles could carry fuel in a container and yet ICE vehicles were still a laughing stock and play toy of the rich and had almost no utility for regular people.

It was gas stations that changed it and NOT being able to carry fuel which they could do on day one when they discovered fuel. You are simply wrong.

BOTH ICE and EV's could not compete with the horse and buggy in those days. ICE surpassed horse and buggy and EV's when they got fueling stations.

You are now saying EV's have not surpassed the horse and buggy because you are saying we do not consider how charging stations have changed the utility of the EV.


Do you even understand that is your point, Terry?

You have stated EV charging stations have no value in the discussion of an EV's utility since the early 1900's and all the data was in at that point as to their value.

Do you agree that is your point? Do you understand your own point?

Gas stations didn't make the ICE vehicle popular. Its utility compared to horses and the fact that the fuel was portable did. EV's failed in big part because the fuel isn't portable.

Even in the earliest days of ICE vehicles, they outperformed horses. They just weren't as affordable. It wasn't dedicated fueling stations that made ICE vehicles work. As I pointed out, and you ignored, before the first gas station opened, ICE vehicles were in demand and people simply bought their gasoline at a hardware store or the like in cans and filled their vehicle up. A farmer with an ICE tractor could simply buy 20 or 30 gallons and haul it back to his farm on a wagon pulled by his tractor if he had to.

You cannot do that with an EV. That's why EV's fail.

 

[QP!]

Gas stations didn't make the ICE vehicle popular. Its utility compared to horses and the fact that the fuel was portable did. EV's failed in big part because the fuel isn't portable.

Even in the earliest days of ICE vehicles, they outperformed horses. They just weren't as affordable. It wasn't dedicated fueling stations that made ICE vehicles work. As I pointed out, and you ignored, before the first gas station opened, ICE vehicles were in demand and people simply bought their gasoline at a hardware store or the like in cans and filled their vehicle up. A farmer with an ICE tractor could simply buy 20 or 30 gallons and haul it back to his farm on a wagon pulled by his tractor if he had to.

You cannot do that with an EV. That's why EV's fail.

Not true.

There were versions of the ICE engine in production since the early 1800's and you could carry around fuel if you wanted.

And yet automobiles were widely mocked as impractical toys of rich people often needing a horse and buggy to tow them home when they ran out gas or broke down.

There are all sorts of periodicals in that day speaking to that. So your points are wrong and stupid.

If you got rid of every gas station today and simply said to people 'you can carry around your own gas in containers' the utility of ICE vehicles would shrink immensely. IT is gas stations that make the work horse they are.

But again, that does not speak to why EV's have surpassed the horse and buggy for utility Terry and i want you to answer that specifically? What is that has changed in the same time frame where you say it was PROVEN ICE was better than EV and no more data is needed that has made EV's so much better, CURRENTLY than the horse and buggy?

 

[Into the Night]

No....you have failed to understand the situation...the stripping of US Nat Gas to send to Europe is a colossal blunder that will lead to major problems for America and Americans.....but it is so far a minor player in electricity inflation.

LNG is not a blunder, Chicom.

Paying for the build out of power for AI....using very expensive intermittent energy.

My rates are going up 10% a year.....why the AI industry is not paying for this is a very interesting question.

They are, Chicom. They pay for electricity like anybody else. It's currently 14c/kw here.

 

[Into the Night]

If the Chinese were doing the deciding this energy diet with extreme costs that the West is doing is exactly what they would write for us.

It is catastrophic for civilization.

LNG is not catastrophic for civilization, Chicom. It must REALLY suck to be as paranoid as you.

 

[Into the Night]

The intermittent energy is the big problem..

Not a problem, Chicom.

..I was told recently by an expert

*yawn*...the unnamed 'expert'. Void reference fallacy.

the reason is that one must built 5X the generation capacity

Try English. Stop making up numbers. Random numbers are not data.

PLUS still keep reliable energy on standby......

You cannot store generated electricity anywhere, Chicom. You must generate AS YOU NEED IT, second by second.

the claim that it is cheap is complete BullShit....

Natual gas is pretty damn cheap, Chicom. About 14.51/kw here, IF natural gas is used. Most of the electricity around here is hydroelectric.

which is obvious by what happens to prices once intermittent generation is installed.

ALL electrical generation is intermittent, Chicom. Electricity is generated according the load, second by second.

Plus the grid becomes more unstable....

There is no national grid, Chicom. An electrical grid does not generate electricity. There are three grids in the United States: the ERIC, the TRIC, and the WRIC (Eastern Regional Interconnect, Texas Regional Interconnect, and the Western Regional Interconnect). All grids are completely stable.

.the upgrading of the grid to prevent collapses in theory is possible, but it will be expensive....we have barely even begun to face those costs.

All three electrical grids are continuously updated, Chicom.

The ERIC, which is the oldest, has been markedly limproved to better handle transient events. This has nothing to do with generating capacity, and is the reason the ERIC doesn't see cold starts anymore.

The TRIC is the closest grid that came to a coldstart event (about 5 minutes away) due to unusual load combined with generating plants down for routine service and natural gas lines freezing during a major ice storm that hit Texas. System operators avoided collapse by shedding load, causing blackouts in sections of Dallas. The contributing factors were not the cost of natural gas, but simply the size of the grid and the unusual combination of maintenance and weather.

The WRIC has never had a coldstart event or even come close to it. It is the most modern system of the three. Most of the generating capacity on the WRIC is hydroelectric, coal, and natural gas, and oil.

California, which is on the WRIC, does not generate anywhere near it's load, and imports most of its electricity through two heavily overloaded lines. Should these sag enough to set off a brush fire, the resulting transient will isolate California and it will see a massive blackout. The WRIC will not sacrifice itself to save California from it's problems. California as a load will be shed automatically. Since they cannot generate sufficient power for themselves, they go black. It will probably happen on a hot day when A/C units are running at peak and they are charging their electric cars.

A grid is NOT generating capacity. It is the interconnection of generators to loads. Generators must be synchronized before connecting to the grid, and generators are connected and disconnected as needed to handle loads, second by second. These generators are dynamos, and you can easily control how much electricity they generate by adjusting the current in their field windings. This is also automatic.

 

[Into the Night]

I dont have the evidence but I have heard that there is no doubt looking at the data that so far the most major price increases have been where AI is being or has been built.

AI is everywhere. It has no 'location'.

You are probably trying to describe server farms. They are very efficient for the electricity they use. Several of them generate their own electricity as well, contributing their generating capacity to the grid they are connected to.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Not true.

There were versions of the ICE engine in production since the early 1800's and you could carry around fuel if you wanted.

And yet automobiles were widely mocked as impractical toys of rich people often needing a horse and buggy to tow them home when they ran out gas or broke down.

There are all sorts of periodicals in that day speaking to that. So your points are wrong and stupid.

If you got rid of every gas station today and simply said to people 'you can carry around your own gas in containers' the utility of ICE vehicles would shrink immensely. IT is gas stations that make the work horse they are.

But again, that does not speak to why EV's have surpassed the horse and buggy for utility Terry and i want you to answer that specifically? What is that has changed in the same time frame where you say it was PROVEN ICE was better than EV and no more data is needed that has made EV's so much better, CURRENTLY than the horse and buggy?

There were versions of the light bulb going all the way back to 1799. Edison invented the first practical one that worked for a long enough time and gave off enough light to make it worth mass producing. Then he worked on a way to get electricity into homes and businesses to make it worth buying

Same with ICE and EV cars. There were numerous early attempts at vehicles. Most were too expensive or impractical. Once improvements were introduced that made them cost effective, they dominated the market and horses were kicked to the curb.

 

[Into the Night]

We hae huge reserve of NG we just need to drill baby drill.

Indeed we do. Approximate 120 billion cubic feet per day is obtained in 2025 (latest figures). About 16 billion cubic feet per day is converted into LNG and exported to other nations. That's about 13% of our natural gas output is currently being exported.

About 34.4 billion cubic feet per day is used for electricity generating. This is about 28% of our supply.

These are the numbers all converted into cubic feet per day. That's DAILY production and use for all figures.

So Hawk is just being paranoid again.

Source: US Energy Administration office.

Natural gas is just one product of drilling for oil. It is obtained from oil wells along with the oil. There are also natural gas wells that do not include oil with it.

Natural gas is a renewable resource, just like oil. It can be obtained from old dump sites, oil wells, even swamps. It is harder to transport than oil, but with modern systems, that is less of a problem now. Most is transported by pipeline, with some being liquified and transported by ships equipped with cryogenic tanks (They look like a ship with large white spheres on them (typically 4-6 of them).

 

[Into the Night]

Exporting large amounts to Europe is an example of how globalist ideology matters more to the people in charge than you do.

About 13% of our natural gas production is exported to other nations, Chicom. Not a big deal.

 

[Into the Night]

The optimists have two very serious problems:

The historical record....The suckage of their peers.

Optimism isn't a problem, Chicom. Why are you so depressed? Do you like it that way?

 

[Into the Night]

Not true. Not in the least. It is unaffordable because it is intermittent and unreliable.


EV's can't compete because they simply don't work for people's needs. Battery cars aren't new. They've been around for almost 150 years now. They've never successfully competed.

The Baker Electric of 1909 was typical of a battery car of the era. There were charging stations all over places like New York City. But you couldn't take it anywhere beyond those urban areas. It was simply impractical.

Go to about 3 minutes

They were a fail then, they're a fail now.


I'm not set on ICE vehicles. I want what works, and EV's don't work.

Quite right. EVs have been around longer than gasoline cars. Gasoline won out for very practical reasons. EVs are expensive. Before gasoline cars, people generally got around using horses and carriages, or by train, which burned wood or coal. Locomotives in those days were external combustion engines. Quite a few of them still run today!

 

[Into the Night]

The number 1 reason for electric rates to rise like they have is the increasing use of wind and solar. There is not one, none, nada, cases where increasing use of wind and solar has not caused precipitous increases in the cost of electricity. Germany, Spain, Australia, Denmark, Italy... Everywhere that invests heavily in wind and solar has seen electricity prices skyrocket.

In the continuous 48 states, California and New York have seen this exact thing happen. Wind has done the same thing in Texas but not quite as bad as massive reliance on solar.

https://commonwealthfoundation.org/blog/dont-believe-the-hype-wind-and-solar-arent-cheap/

Wind and Solar are the Worst Generating Technologies, Heavily Subsidized by Biden’s Climate Bill

Spain and Portugal’s blackout should be a warning to U.S. lawmakers, who decide the future of the massive renewable tax…

www.instituteforenergyresearch.org

If Solar And Wind Are So Cheap, Why Are They Making Electricity So Expensive?

From Forbes Michael Shellenberger Energy I write about energy and the environment Pour lire cet article en français, cliquez ici Para leer este artículo en español, haga clic aquí Over the last ye…

wattsupwiththat.com

The math is relatively simple. The calculation is for a kilowatt-day, not by the kilowatt-hour like is commonly used. In terms of kilowatt-days of power, wind and especially solar are grossly unaffordable.

Again, spot on.

Solar power is the most expensive method of generating electricity there is, watt for watt. Wind is 2nd. They are also very intermittent sources, since solar panels generate NOTHING with the sun is down and loads are higher, and wind only operates over a narrow range of wind speed.

Yet. utility companies are forced to buy this expensive power by climate laws, instead of using cheaper and more reliable sources.

So, they pass this tax onto the consumer.

 

[Into the Night]

For example, the last Tesla tier II charger I installed for someone ran them right at $2000 and I wasn't gouging at all. The wire alone, 8/2G NM ran about $500 alone. The charger, even with my discount, was $450. Slapping a 50-amp circuit in your panel means if aren't careful about when you decide to charge your car, you could easily find your electric bill shooting up $50 to $100 a month.

All of these numbers sound about right considering the current market for copper, and the cost of retrofitting existing houses.
Slapping that 50A circuit in a panel might even require a new panel or even a larger service entrance with all of its associated costs, if the house is old enough.

At least in most cases, it's just the new branch circuit.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

All of these numbers sound about right considering the current market for copper, and the cost of retrofitting existing houses.
Slapping that 50A circuit in a panel might even require a new panel or even a larger service entrance with all of its associated costs, if the house is old enough.

At least in most cases, it's just the new branch circuit.

I got around that with a cheat. I hooked the guy's dryer and car charger to the same circuit and told him he could run one or the other but not both. He was fine with that being retired on a fixed income and not wanting to really spend the $6000 and four months I was quoting to get permits and replace his panel.

 

[QP!]

There were versions of the light bulb going all the way back to 1799. Edison invented the first practical one that worked for a long enough time and gave off enough light to make it worth mass producing. Then he worked on a way to get electricity into homes and businesses to make it worth buying

Same with ICE and EV cars. There were numerous early attempts at vehicles. Most were too expensive or impractical. Once improvements were introduced that made them cost effective, they dominated the market and horses were kicked to the curb.

What changed with EV's today that makes them more reliable and practical from the time over 100 years ago when you say it was already proven ICE was better than EV's and nothing that has happened with EV technology is in consideration?

Be very specific as both ICE and the horse and buggy were considered more pratical to own back then, so what specifically changed for EV's??

 

[T. A. Gardner]

What changed with EV's today that makes them more reliable and practical from the time over 100 years ago when you say it was already proven ICE was better than EV's and nothing that has happened with EV technology is in consideration?

Be very specific as both ICE and the horse and buggy were considered more pratical to own back then, so what specifically changed for EV's??

Nothing. EV's 100 years ago were as reliable or more so than ICE vehicles. What hasn't changed, and what the problem with EV's is, is that they aren't practical for many people because their power supply is fixed and not portable. Sure, in urban areas EV's are practical so long as you have access to a personal charger. Public charging puts EV's in a worse spot to ICE vehicles.

They are practical if you are only driving limited distances. I'm going to drive to San Antonio TX later this year. An EV doing that from Phoenix AZ is totally absurd and impractical. Yes, you probably could but it would require more planning and careful range management to do it. It isn't practical.

Driving to this bar... Which I've done is something you shouldn't attempt in an EV.

He says that road is a "little bumpy." I drove like 60 mph up it in my truck. Bumpy my ass...