America is losing its religion — and the effects will be long-lasting

Cypress said:
All I wrote was that Protestant theology rests on a tenet of justification by faith, and that Martin Luther and John Calvin deeply and profoundly influenced Protestant theology irrespective of faith.

That is just rudimentary Protestant history and not even remotely controversial.
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1) that isn't what you wrote....this is.....
Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
Protestantism traces roots and theology to Luther and Calvin
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2) justification by faith isn't original to Luther or Calvin.......it comes from Paul and John......
 
Cypress said:
American Protestantism is a minority of world Protestantism.


You were unaware that Luther and Calvin profoundly influenced Protestant theology across time and across denominations.

That is extraordinary for someone who paid money to some little bible school to teach them about Christianity.

That means two things: you have no credibility to discuss world religious history, and you wasted your money at your little Bible school because they did not even teach you rudimentary religious history
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PostmodernProphet said:
1) that isn't what you wrote....this is.....


2) justification by faith isn't original to Luther or Calvin.......it comes from Paul and John......
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Cypress is correct about the lineage. Not completely correct, but very close as the chart below displays:

 
Dutch Uncle said:
Cypress is correct about the lineage. Not completely correct, but very close as the chart below displays:

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the chart is incorrect.....Baptists are not offshoots of Calvinism......there is a segment of the Baptists which broke off from the rest and adapted some of his teachings called Reformed Baptists......they are not welcomed by other Baptists......also the "congregationalist" category is simply a designation of churches which follow a congregation and up structure rather than a central leadership down structure.....it isn't really a theological doctrine......also the chart doesn't even mention Episcopalians or UCC (I think they changed their name to Church of God in Christ)

here's a list with numbers....
1. Southern Baptist Convention: 16.2 million members
2. The United Methodist Church: 7.8 million members
3. The Church of God in Christ: 5.5 million members
4. National Baptist Convention: 5.0 million members
5. Evangelical Lutheran Church, U.S.A.: 4.5 million members
6. National Baptist Convention of America: 3.5 million members
7. Assemblies of God: 2.9 million members
8. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.): 2.8 million members
9. African Methodist Episcopal Church: 2.5 million members
10. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America: 2.5 million members
11. The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS): 2.3 million members
12. The Episcopal Church: 2.0 million members
13. Churches of Christ: 1.6 million members
14. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World: 1.5 million members
15. The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church: 1.4 million members
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PostmodernProphet said:
the chart is incorrect.....Baptists are not offshoots of Calvinism......there is a segment of the Baptists which broke off from the rest and adapted some of his teachings called Reformed Baptists......they are not welcomed by other Baptists......also the "congregationalist" category is simply a designation of churches which follow a congregation and up structure rather than a central leadership down structure.....it isn't really a theological doctrine......
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I'll wait for your evidence because your opinions are almost always flawed.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
1) that isn't what you wrote....this is.....


2) justification by faith isn't original to Luther or Calvin.......it comes from Paul and John......
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now you are making rudimentary progress.

I know Paul wrote of faith by justification alone.

But that was not the bedrock tenet of any Christian faith until Luther came along 1,500 years later.

Paul is not the only writer in the NT.

James wrote of good works and Christian Salvation.

It was not until the Protestant reformation that faith by justification alone became a bedrock theological tenet....but of Protestantism only. That is thanks to Luther and Calvin.

Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy do not share Protestant theology concerning faith by justification alone.

So again, we come back to and recognize the fundamental importance of Luther and Calvin to world Protestantism in the broadest sense.

I am shocked your little Bible school did not teach you Christian history and theology more broadly outside your little Bible thumping denomination.
 
Cypress said:
now you are making rudimentary progress.

I know Paul wrote of faith by justification alone.

But that was not the bedrock tenet of any Christian faith until Luther came along 1,500 years later.

Paul is not the only writer in the NT.

James wrote of good works and Christian Salvation.

It was not until the Protestant reformation that faith by justification alone became a bedrock theological tenet....but of Protestantism only. That is thanks to Luther and Calvin.

Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy do not share Protestant theology concerning faith by justification alone.

So again, we come back to and recognize the fundamental importance of Luther and Calvin to world Protestantism in the broadest sense.

I am shocked your little Bible school did not teach you Christian history and theology more broadly outside your little Bible thumping denomination.
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atheist's attempts at theology generally end this way.....demonstrating their ignorance while proclaiming their superiority.......my little Calvinist seminary and my little Calvinist denomination do regularly thump ignorant atheists with the Bible.....but only because atheists know so little about it.......
 
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PostmodernProphet said:
atheist's attempts at theology generally end this way.....demonstrating their ignorance while proclaiming their superiority.......my little Calvinist seminary and my little Calvinist denomination do regularly thump ignorant atheists with the Bible.....but only because atheists know so little about it.......
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The bible is useful, PMP, if you have a table in your home with one leg that's too short by the thickness of your bible.
In the end, though, you'll still want to replace the table.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
atheist's attempts at theology generally end this way.....demonstrating their ignorance while proclaiming their superiority.......my little Calvinist seminary and my little Calvinist denomination do regularly thump ignorant atheists with the Bible.....but only because atheists know so little about it.......
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I accept your tacit confession that you never really understood why Luther and Calvin were such influential figures in the development of Protestant theology,
and I acknowlege your unspoken confession of ignorance that you did not functionally understand the rudimentary theological distinctions between Protestantism, Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodoxy.

That little Bible school you paid money to teach you Christian history and theology should have their accreditation revoked ..assuming they even have one.
 
signalmankenneth said:
New surveys show Americans' membership in communities of worship has declined sharply in recent years, with less than 50% of the country belonging to a church, synagogue or mosque.

Why it matters: The accelerating trend towards a more secular America represents a fundamental change in the national character, one that will have major ramifications for politics and even social cohesion.

By the numbers: A Gallup poll released last week found just 47% of Americans reported belonging to a house of worship, down from 50% in 2018 and 70% as recently as 1999.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/america-losing-religion-effects-long-093028404.html
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evince said:
And it’s a good thing because too many humans use religion to excuse evil
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People use politics too. HOA meetings, the PTA, whatever is handy. Basically, some people are assholes.

Religion doesn't kill people. People kill people. :)

It seems too many atheists assume "losing religion" means atheism. Note that the numbers of atheists remain low compared to those who are spiritual, but not religious.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...s-now-say-theyre-spiritual-but-not-religious/
About a quarter of U.S. adults (27%) now say they think of themselves as spiritual but not religious, up 8 percentage points in five years, according to a Pew Research Center survey conducted between April 25 and June 4 (2017)

https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/
Unaffiliated (religious "nones")22.8%
Atheist 3.1%
Agnostic 4.0%
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Nothing in particular 15.8%
Don't know 0.6%

 
Dutch Uncle said:
People use politics too. HOA meetings, the PTA, whatever is handy. Basically, some people are assholes.

Religion doesn't kill people. People kill people. :)

It seems too many atheists assume "losing religion" means atheism. Note that the numbers of atheists remain low compared to those who are spiritual, but not religious.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...s-now-say-theyre-spiritual-but-not-religious/
About a quarter of U.S. adults (27%) now say they think of themselves as spiritual but not religious, up 8 percentage points in five years, according to a Pew Research Center survey conducted between April 25 and June 4 (2017)

https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/
Unaffiliated (religious "nones")22.8%
Atheist 3.1%
Agnostic 4.0%
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Nothing in particular 15.8%
Don't know 0.6%
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My two cents is that anyone calling themselves "spritual" is just reticent to say they are religious. Religious is a loaded term for some people.

And I am as guilty of it as anyone else - I am sure I have referred to myself as spiritual.

Being religious just means believing in a higher reality, an ultimate truth, or in a greater spritual context than one's self. Being religious does not have to mean attending Catholic mass or Methodist service every Sunday, or even affiliating with an established church.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
atheist's attempts at theology generally end this way.....demonstrating their ignorance while proclaiming their superiority.......my little Calvinist seminary and my little Calvinist denomination do regularly thump ignorant atheists with the Bible.....but only because atheists know so little about it.......
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The bible was written by religious leaders. You all can defend the bible by referring to it as axiomatic. That is only satisfying to religious nuts who cannot see how absurd that is. The bible proves nothing.
 
Cypress said:
I accept your tacit confession that you never really understood why Luther and Calvin were such influential figures in the development of Protestant theology,
and I acknowlege your unspoken confession of ignorance that you did not functionally understand the rudimentary theological distinctions between Protestantism, Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodoxy.

That little Bible school you paid money to teach you Christian history and theology should have their accreditation revoked ..assuming they even have one.
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you've lost the argument......stop being a cunt......the next time you try to make oversimplified generalizations I will be happy to hand you your ass again.....
 
Nordberg said:
The bible was written by religious leaders. You all can defend the bible by referring to it as axiomatic. That is only satisfying to religious nuts who cannot see how absurd that is. The bible proves nothing.
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thanks for that.....it has nothing to do with the discussion but I know you had to get it off your chest.....
 
Iolo/Penderyn said:
I think non-Christian would be more accurate. How many Americans have ever lived by the New Testament? Perhaps some Christian missionaries will come over one day and demonstrate the difference between Christian and 'religious'.
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Do you know when the decline of Christianity in America started? I was reading someone who claims to have looked into this saying that it was right around 1900, that we did not then see a drop in people claiming to be Christians but we did see a decline in folks behaving as if they were Christians, the practice started to get thin.
 
Cypress said:
My two cents is that anyone calling themselves "spritual" is just reticent to say they are religious. Religious is a loaded term for some people.

And I am as guilty of it as anyone else - I am sure I have referred to myself as spiritual.

Being religious just means believing in a higher reality, an ultimate truth, or in a greater spiritual context than one's self. Being religious does not have to mean attending Catholic mass or Methodist service every Sunday, or even affiliating with an established church.
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Religious is following religious dogma. How can a person be a Christian if they don't follow Christian precepts? A Jew without adhering to the Torah? A Muslim without following the Koran? A person can still accept or believe in something beyond the physical universe without adhering to specific dogma.

Ergo, a person can be spiritual without religion.

IMHO, religion is a method. Spiritual enlightenment is the goal. Martial arts teaches self-defense, among other things, but each style is just a different method to learn self-defense. Likewise, religions are simply methods to allow the person to attain spiritual enlightenment. Not everyone wants to reach that enlightenment. They just mumble the words.
 
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