40 years ago today - Kent State Massacre

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What I'm saying is that you can blame whoever you want. But the murders were bloodlust. The Guard was in no danger, especially from people 200 yds away. Did they have orders to fire? I don't know, all I know is they went up the hill and turned, nobody followed them. Nobody was throwing rocks or attacking them in any way. Not many were even close. They turned aimed and fired. What ever happened in the days before that Monday did not warrant a murder sentence on innocent students.
I didn't say or imply that it did. As I said, the Guardsmen were to few and poorly trained and led for the situation. The situation did not call for violence. But I know to many people who were there and witnessed the rioting. I understand the students anger at the time but that was completely innapropriate behavior. Stating the the students bear responsibility for their behavior does not imply that it was ok for the Guard to open fire as they did.
 
New light shed on Kent State killings
James Rosen SPECIAL TO THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Previously undisclosed FBI documents suggest that the Kent State antiwar protests were more meticulously planned than originally thought and that one or more gunshots may have been fired at embattled Ohio National Guardsmen before their killings of four students and woundings of at least nine others on that searing day in May 1970.

As the nation marks the 40th anniversary of the Kent State antiwar protests Tuesday, a review of hundreds of previously unpublished investigative reports sheds a new — and very different — light on the tragic episode.

The upheaval that enveloped the northeastern Ohio campus actually began three days earlier, in downtown Kent. Stirred to action by President Nixon's expansion of U.S. military operations in Cambodia, a roving mob of earnest antiwar activists, hard-core radicals, curious students and others smashed 50 bank and store windows, looted a jewelry store and hurled bricks and bottles at police.

Four officers suffered injuries, and the mayor declared a civil emergency. Only tear gas dispersed the mob.

An exhaustive review later concluded that this unrest on the streets — the worst in Kent's history — was "not an organized riot or a planned protest."

But the FBI's investigation swiftly uncovered reliable evidence that suggested otherwise. Among the strongest was a pre-dawn conversation — never before reported — between two unnamed men overheard inside a campus lounge later that night. Their discussion was witnessed by the girlfriend of a Kent State student and conveyed up the FBI chain of command 15 days later.

"We did it," one man exulted, according to the inquiry. "We got the riot started."

The second man expressed disappointment at being excluded from the riot's planning. "Wait until tomorrow night," the leader replied excitedly. "We just got the word. We're going to burn the ROTC building."

This was 20 hours before the ROTC headquarters on the Kent State campus, an old wooden frame building, was, in fact, burned to the ground.

"What about the flare?" the second man asked before the leader spotted the coed listening to them and abruptly ended the conversation. Dozens of witnesses later told the FBI they saw a flare used to ignite the blaze.

Now largely forgotten, the torching of the ROTC building was the true precursor to the killings at Kent State because it triggered the deployment of the National Guard to the fevered campus.

That deployment climaxed in bloodshed on the afternoon of May 4, 1970, with the guardsmen, clad in gas masks and confronted by angry, rock-throwing students, firing their M-1 rifles 67 times in 13 seconds, killing Allison Krause, Jeffrey Miller, Sandra Scheuer and William Knox Schroeder.

A report submitted to Attorney General John Mitchell in June 1970 stated "there was no sniper" who could have fired at the guardsmen before the killings.

Numerous witnesses corroborated this.

A female freshman provided the FBI with a sworn statement that "there was no shot before [the guardsmen's] volley, and there were no warning shots fired." The Justice Department's internal review cited statements by six guardsmen who "pointedly" told the FBI that their lives were not in danger and that "it was not a shooting situation."

Yet the declassified FBI files show the FBI already had developed credible evidence suggesting that there was indeed a sniper and that one or more shots may have been fired at the guardsmen first.

Rumors of a sniper had circulated for at least a day before the fatal confrontation, the documents show. And a memorandum sent to FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover on May 19, 1970, referred to bullet holes found in a tree and a statue — evidence, the report stated, that "indicated that at least two shots had been fired at the National Guard."

Another interviewee told agents that a guardsman had spoken of "a confirmed report of a sniper."

It also turned out that the FBI had its own informant and agent-provocateur roaming the crowd, a part-time Kent State student named Terry Norman, who had a camera. Mr. Norman also was armed with a snub-nosed revolver that FBI ballistics tests, first declassified in 1977, concluded had indeed been discharged on that day.

Then there was the testimony of an ROTC cadet whose identity remains unknown, one of the pervasive redactions concealing the names of all the FBI agents who conducted the interviews and of all those whom they interrogated. Although presumably angry over the demonstrators' destruction of the campus ROTC building, the cadet's calm, precise firsthand account nonetheless carries a credibility not easily dismissed.

Before the fatal volley, the ROTC cadet told the FBI, he "heard one round, a pause, two rounds, and then the M-1s opened up."

The report continued that the cadet "stated that the first three rounds were definitely not M-1s. He said they could possibly have been a .45 caliber. … [He] further stated that he heard confirmed reports of sniper fire coming in over both the National Guard radio and the state police radio."

The cadet also told the FBI he observed demonstrators carrying baseball bats, golf clubs and improvised weapons, including pieces of steel wire cut into footlong sections, along with radios and other electronic devices "used to monitor the police and Guard wavelengths."

Separately, a female student told the FBI she "recalled hearing what she thought was [the sound of] firecrackers and then a few seconds later [she] heard noise that to her sounded like a machine gun going off, but then later thought it may have been a volley of shots from the Guard."

Absent the declassification of the FBI's entire investigative file, many questions remain unanswered — including why the documents quoted here were overlooked, or discounted, in the Justice Department's official findings.

At a minimum, the FBI documents strongly challenge the received narrative that the rioting in downtown Kent was spontaneous and unplanned, that the burning of the ROTC headquarters was similarly impulsive and that the guardsmen's fatal shootings were explicable only as unprovoked acts.

The FBI files provide, in short, a hidden history of the killings at Kent State. They show that the "four dead in Ohio" more properly belong, in the grand sweep of history, to four days in May, an angry, chaotic and violent interlude when a controversial foreign war came home to American soil.

• James Rosen, a Fox News correspondent, examined previously undisclosed FBI files on the Kent State shootings while researching his biography "The Strong Man: John Mitchell and the Secrets of Watergate."

==========================================================================



You are correct about one thing, Crashk... Our views are often persuaded by perceptions. For instance, you demonstrate why you are such a devout liberal extremist, unwilling to cooperate or work with any conservative on any issue. It's not simply because you don't think they have good ideas or that you have better ideas, it is deep-rooted hatred and disdain for them as fellow Americans. All of these 'left/right" issues we face, can never be resolved through working together in a bipartisan manner for the betterment of the county, because it is too important to you personally, to revile and hate the right, even if it destroys the country in the process. I think it is remarkable this Kent State debate has brought that out for the world to see in you.
 
What I'm saying is that you can blame whoever you want. But the murders were bloodlust. The Guard was in no danger, especially from people 200 yds away. Did they have orders to fire? I don't know, all I know is they went up the hill and turned, nobody followed them. Nobody was throwing rocks or attacking them in any way. Not many were even close. They turned aimed and fired. What ever happened in the days before that Monday did not warrant a murder sentence on innocent students.

And yet you've answered your own questions, with your comment of "I don't know"

By the way; Dixie just pwnd you, with his post that was right above yours.
 
It was the day I saw propaganda in action Dixie. The times weren't much different than today. The right seeded hatred with catch phrases and fear the same as they do today but instead of brown people being the target it was blacks, longhairs, antiwar college students and hippies. The hatred between the left and right was just as strong as today.

After about an hour of ambulances and confusion the school was closed. A friend and I had no way home so I called home and my mother and a friend of hers who graduated from Kent yrs before came to pick us up. Me ma was basically a Democrat folkie from the 50's and as liberal as they come. When we got in the car she was pissed because the news reported that students rioted and killed Nat. Guardsmen. (actually one guy had a heart attack a day before and that was used). My friend and I tried to tell her the truth but the initial, and purposely false news report, had worked. We talked about that ride home yrs later and she realized the news was wrong and I made her admit that it had had an affect on the way she perceived what happened that day.

So Dix, the murders and bullshit news reports all played into the right wing Law and Order slogan and Peace With Honor bullshit that was happening at the time. And you on the right are playing the same shit today. Your bumper sticker methods never change they just get out of hand now and then.

Oh, almost forgot the insult...go fuck yourself.

You are a total idiot if you think that in the heat of things, that erroneous information DOESN'T get reported.

I bet you believe that 9/11 was an inside job, also.
 
I didn't say or imply that it did. As I said, the Guardsmen were to few and poorly trained and led for the situation. The situation did not call for violence. But I know to many people who were there and witnessed the rioting. I understand the students anger at the time but that was completely innapropriate behavior. Stating the the students bear responsibility for their behavior does not imply that it was ok for the Guard to open fire as they did.

What makes you think he's going to read it this time, if he didn't bother to read it the first time??

Unless that's the reason you're giving him the Readers Digest condensced version.
 
New light shed on Kent State killings
James Rosen SPECIAL TO THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Previously undisclosed FBI documents suggest that the Kent State antiwar protests were more meticulously planned than originally thought and that one or more gunshots may have been fired at embattled Ohio National Guardsmen before their killings of four students and woundings of at least nine others on that searing day in May 1970.

As the nation marks the 40th anniversary of the Kent State antiwar protests Tuesday, a review of hundreds of previously unpublished investigative reports sheds a new — and very different — light on the tragic episode.

The upheaval that enveloped the northeastern Ohio campus actually began three days earlier, in downtown Kent. Stirred to action by President Nixon's expansion of U.S. military operations in Cambodia, a roving mob of earnest antiwar activists, hard-core radicals, curious students and others smashed 50 bank and store windows, looted a jewelry store and hurled bricks and bottles at police.

Four officers suffered injuries, and the mayor declared a civil emergency. Only tear gas dispersed the mob.

An exhaustive review later concluded that this unrest on the streets — the worst in Kent's history — was "not an organized riot or a planned protest."

But the FBI's investigation swiftly uncovered reliable evidence that suggested otherwise. Among the strongest was a pre-dawn conversation — never before reported — between two unnamed men overheard inside a campus lounge later that night. Their discussion was witnessed by the girlfriend of a Kent State student and conveyed up the FBI chain of command 15 days later.

"We did it," one man exulted, according to the inquiry. "We got the riot started."

The second man expressed disappointment at being excluded from the riot's planning. "Wait until tomorrow night," the leader replied excitedly. "We just got the word. We're going to burn the ROTC building."

This was 20 hours before the ROTC headquarters on the Kent State campus, an old wooden frame building, was, in fact, burned to the ground.

"What about the flare?" the second man asked before the leader spotted the coed listening to them and abruptly ended the conversation. Dozens of witnesses later told the FBI they saw a flare used to ignite the blaze.

Now largely forgotten, the torching of the ROTC building was the true precursor to the killings at Kent State because it triggered the deployment of the National Guard to the fevered campus.

That deployment climaxed in bloodshed on the afternoon of May 4, 1970, with the guardsmen, clad in gas masks and confronted by angry, rock-throwing students, firing their M-1 rifles 67 times in 13 seconds, killing Allison Krause, Jeffrey Miller, Sandra Scheuer and William Knox Schroeder.

A report submitted to Attorney General John Mitchell in June 1970 stated "there was no sniper" who could have fired at the guardsmen before the killings.

Numerous witnesses corroborated this.

A female freshman provided the FBI with a sworn statement that "there was no shot before [the guardsmen's] volley, and there were no warning shots fired." The Justice Department's internal review cited statements by six guardsmen who "pointedly" told the FBI that their lives were not in danger and that "it was not a shooting situation."

Yet the declassified FBI files show the FBI already had developed credible evidence suggesting that there was indeed a sniper and that one or more shots may have been fired at the guardsmen first.

Rumors of a sniper had circulated for at least a day before the fatal confrontation, the documents show. And a memorandum sent to FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover on May 19, 1970, referred to bullet holes found in a tree and a statue — evidence, the report stated, that "indicated that at least two shots had been fired at the National Guard."

Another interviewee told agents that a guardsman had spoken of "a confirmed report of a sniper."

It also turned out that the FBI had its own informant and agent-provocateur roaming the crowd, a part-time Kent State student named Terry Norman, who had a camera. Mr. Norman also was armed with a snub-nosed revolver that FBI ballistics tests, first declassified in 1977, concluded had indeed been discharged on that day.

Then there was the testimony of an ROTC cadet whose identity remains unknown, one of the pervasive redactions concealing the names of all the FBI agents who conducted the interviews and of all those whom they interrogated. Although presumably angry over the demonstrators' destruction of the campus ROTC building, the cadet's calm, precise firsthand account nonetheless carries a credibility not easily dismissed.

Before the fatal volley, the ROTC cadet told the FBI, he "heard one round, a pause, two rounds, and then the M-1s opened up."

The report continued that the cadet "stated that the first three rounds were definitely not M-1s. He said they could possibly have been a .45 caliber. … [He] further stated that he heard confirmed reports of sniper fire coming in over both the National Guard radio and the state police radio."

The cadet also told the FBI he observed demonstrators carrying baseball bats, golf clubs and improvised weapons, including pieces of steel wire cut into footlong sections, along with radios and other electronic devices "used to monitor the police and Guard wavelengths."

Separately, a female student told the FBI she "recalled hearing what she thought was [the sound of] firecrackers and then a few seconds later [she] heard noise that to her sounded like a machine gun going off, but then later thought it may have been a volley of shots from the Guard."

Absent the declassification of the FBI's entire investigative file, many questions remain unanswered — including why the documents quoted here were overlooked, or discounted, in the Justice Department's official findings.

At a minimum, the FBI documents strongly challenge the received narrative that the rioting in downtown Kent was spontaneous and unplanned, that the burning of the ROTC headquarters was similarly impulsive and that the guardsmen's fatal shootings were explicable only as unprovoked acts.

The FBI files provide, in short, a hidden history of the killings at Kent State. They show that the "four dead in Ohio" more properly belong, in the grand sweep of history, to four days in May, an angry, chaotic and violent interlude when a controversial foreign war came home to American soil.

• James Rosen, a Fox News correspondent, examined previously undisclosed FBI files on the Kent State shootings while researching his biography "The Strong Man: John Mitchell and the Secrets of Watergate."

==========================================================================



You are correct about one thing, Crashk... Our views are often persuaded by perceptions. For instance, you demonstrate why you are such a devout liberal extremist, unwilling to cooperate or work with any conservative on any issue. It's not simply because you don't think they have good ideas or that you have better ideas, it is deep-rooted hatred and disdain for them as fellow Americans. All of these 'left/right" issues we face, can never be resolved through working together in a bipartisan manner for the betterment of the county, because it is too important to you personally, to revile and hate the right, even if it destroys the country in the process. I think it is remarkable this Kent State debate has brought that out for the world to see in you.

OH-C'MON NOW!!
Do you really expect everyone to believe and buy into this; especially when it's a well known fact that the FBI was involved in trying to demonize all those peacefull anti-war protesters.
And if there were shots fired, at the Guardsmen, then it was probably the FBI who did it; in an attempt to justify all of this. (/sarcasm)
 
OH-C'MON NOW!!
Do you really expect everyone to believe and buy into this; especially when it's a well known fact that the FBI was involved in trying to demonize all those peacefull anti-war protesters.
And if there were shots fired, at the Guardsmen, then it was probably the FBI who did it; in an attempt to justify all of this. (/sarcasm)

Well the way I see it is this... Had the National Guard been given instructions to just open fire on the protesters because they didn't like what they were doing or whatever... there would have been far more than 4 people killed, don't you imagine? I mean, had they killed 400 people or 1,400 people, I might be able to accept Crashk's theory it was some 'right-wing' initiative at play, but that was not the case.
 
Well the way I see it is this... Had the National Guard been given instructions to just open fire on the protesters because they didn't like what they were doing or whatever... there would have been far more than 4 people killed, don't you imagine? I mean, had they killed 400 people or 1,400 people, I might be able to accept Crashk's theory it was some 'right-wing' initiative at play, but that was not the case.

Now, you're just being hardheaded and juvenile.(/sarcasm)
 
You are correct about one thing, Crashk... Our views are often persuaded by perceptions. For instance, you demonstrate why you are such a devout liberal extremist, unwilling to cooperate or work with any conservative on any issue. It's not simply because you don't think they have good ideas or that you have better ideas, it is deep-rooted hatred and disdain for them as fellow Americans. All of these 'left/right" issues we face, can never be resolved through working together in a bipartisan manner for the betterment of the county, because it is too important to you personally, to revile and hate the right, even if it destroys the country in the process. I think it is remarkable this Kent State debate has brought that out for the world to see in you.

By the way; Dixie just pwnd you, with his post that was right above yours.

I agree; Crashk officially pwned.
 
I see the propaganda on MSM and I cringe when I think they are stretching it. I see a lot more on Fox. More flat out lies and half truths.

by the way did you buy into the propaganda leading up to the Iraq invasion? did you cover you house with duct tape and plastic? Did you believe we were going to war so the poor Iraqi women could have a purple finger or for oil? Did you believe Saddam could hit us in 40 minutes? Did you believe the bullshit Italian aluminum tube 'evidence'?
Do you believe Obama is a US citizen? Do you believe conservative ideology is not to blame for our current state of affairs?

Trust everybody but cut the cards when your mom's dealing.

As predicted:

Bush's fault.
 
OH-C'MON NOW!!
Do you really expect everyone to believe and buy into this; especially when it's a well known fact that the FBI was involved in trying to demonize all those peacefull anti-war protesters.
And if there were shots fired, at the Guardsmen, then it was probably the FBI who did it; in an attempt to justify all of this. (/sarcasm)
I'm sorry but Dixies post reads like something out of Nixon's biography. This is pure conspiracy theory bullshit.

It aint like Kent State was an isolated inicident. The shootings may have been but rioting on college campuses all across the US (around 400 College campuses shut down due to protest during this time). All in protest over Nixons outrageous lies to the American people when he decieved the American public and escalated a war, which had been winding down, by expanding our involvement into two peacefull, noncommunist nations, Laos and Cambodia. It was probably the most disgracefull act ever perpetrated by the American Government.

Crash is certainly right about this sort of right wing propaganda being used as a rationalisation for justifying the perfidy of their lies and outrageous behavior of the Nixon administration.

I mean it only takes a little common sense to realize what would be involved for a conspiracy involving hundreds of thousand of students at 400 seperate college campuses around the United States to occur and just how laughably asinine the authors article, Dixie posted, is.
 
Well the way I see it is this... Had the National Guard been given instructions to just open fire on the protesters because they didn't like what they were doing or whatever... there would have been far more than 4 people killed, don't you imagine? I mean, had they killed 400 people or 1,400 people, I might be able to accept Crashk's theory it was some 'right-wing' initiative at play, but that was not the case.
I don't think you can dismiss the views of some one who as actually there as "A theory".

Actually Dixie, you're right about one thing. It's amazing more people weren't killed and injured. About 60 shots were fired and only 4 were killed and 9 injured. Considering they were shooting into a crowd and two of the victims killed weren't even protestors but Students walking to class about 100 yards away.....I'd say they were lousy shots too.
 
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Sondra Locke was a cute little number, but she couldn't act worth shit. I wonder if Clint had her around for another reason.

He was a serial cheater and Locke was just one of a long line of his conquests.

"Sondra Locke first met Clint Eastwood in 1972. They began a romantic relationship during the filming of The Outlaw Josey Wales (1976) and lived together for the next 14 years."

Sondra Locke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
I don't think you can dismiss the views of some one who as actually there as "A theory".

Actually Dixie, you're right about one thing. It's amazing more people weren't killed and injured. About 60 shots were fired and only 4 were killed and 9 injured. Considering they were shooting into a crowd and two of the victims killed weren't even protestors but Students walking to class about 100 yards away.....I'd say they were lousy shots too.

Very lousy shots.... especially if they were given orders to shoot the protesters! That's kind of my whole point... This wasn't some bunch of liberal nitwits who never fired a gun before, and didn't know what they were doing, these were trained National Guardsmen... don't you imagine they would have killed more than 4 people, IF THAT WERE THEIR OBJECTIVE? C'mon now Mott, I know you are a pinhead, but you seem to have a little gray matter at times, how about putting it to good use here, and stop being a total goob?
 
Very lousy shots.... especially if they were given orders to shoot the protesters! That's kind of my whole point... This wasn't some bunch of liberal nitwits who never fired a gun before, and didn't know what they were doing, these were trained National Guardsmen... don't you imagine they would have killed more than 4 people, IF THAT WERE THEIR OBJECTIVE? C'mon now Mott, I know you are a pinhead, but you seem to have a little gray matter at times, how about putting it to good use here, and stop being a total goob?
Oh I don't believe that the Ohio NG intended to go out and kill students. I think it was a comedy of errors that resulted in this tragedy. I think the reaction of the Ohio NG to open fire on these students was completely unwarranted and was primarly a result of these guardsmen being poorly trained for handling a situation like this. In fact it was because of Kent State that major reforms occurred in the NG and other branches of the military in how to manage civil unrest/crowd control with non-lethal force. Though I don't think there was any specific plan or objective by the ONG to go out and shoot students that is what in fact happened and those shootings were unwarranted and unjustified and will probably go down in history as the NG's lowest moment.
 
Oh I don't believe that the Ohio NG intended to go out and kill students. I think it was a comedy of errors that resulted in this tragedy. I think the reaction of the Ohio NG to open fire on these students was completely unwarranted and was primarly a result of these guardsmen being poorly trained for handling a situation like this. In fact it was because of Kent State that major reforms occurred in the NG and other branches of the military in how to manage civil unrest/crowd control with non-lethal force. Though I don't think there was any specific plan or objective by the ONG to go out and shoot students that is what in fact happened and those shootings were unwarranted and unjustified and will probably go down in history as the NG's lowest moment.

Crashk: ...I realized I had just witnessed American military kill Americans and began to understand what the rightwing will do to get their way.

This is what I was addressing, in case you missed it.

I agree with you, it was a needless tragedy, and there was no excuse for what happened. That said, I have NEVER heard anyone articulate anything different! It WASN'T a case of "the rightwing doing anything to get their way!" It wasn't premeditated or orchestrated by the Nixon Administration, the National Guard, or the governor of Ohio. It wasn't because the law and order conservatives didn't want kids protesting on campus! None of that is the case, none of that is true, and to insinuate, 40 years after the fact, that such a thing IS true, is disgusting and reprehensible.

I honestly believe the NG thought they were being fired upon, and returned fire... I'll always believe that's what happened, because that is the only thing that makes logical sense to me. They stopped shooting immediately when they realized they weren't being fired on, but the damage was done. Not making excuses, just offering a reasonable explanation of what happened... Maybe they WERE being fired upon, these people did torch the ROTC building... but it still wasn't right, it still shouldn't have happened. It simply wasn't some Grand Nixonian Plot or Rightwing Militia Action. In actuality, it wasn't much different than Ruby Ridge or Waco, aside from the difference between National Guard and ATF guns.
 
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