Should Obama step aside?

[Onceler]

I agree, this is a global debt crisis, that Obama tries to solve with more debt and no assurance to pay. I told Onceler in an earlier thread (he called me insane) that a Balanced Budget Amendment was the only way to save our credit rating as it would more than reassure, but would ensure that we would absolutely pay our debt once the crisis had passed.

There really is no way to save this thing without absolute assurance, making deals that "promise" future cuts that will never come as there is zero power to stop future congresses from spending more are absolutely worthless.

It's here, it is now, and more incredible inflationary debt is absolutely not the cure for it. It is global, and it underlines the utter failure of the debt economy and absolutely proves the theory that democracy only survives until the people understand that they can vote themselves largess.

I'm ranting. But it is firmly grounded in reality and observation.

Of course, the nations in Europe are responsible for their own debt, the idea that the US is to blame for their debt is stupid.

Are you aware that you confuse me with other posters quite often?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

This is not like 2008. This is NOT about politics. Not about banker's greed, not about sub prime mortgages. This is a global problem and it must be tackled globally. Qualified, experienced and wise economists should be meeting together with no sign of red or blue because if Moody's and or Fitch also knock you back you are going to be so deep in the crap that it will be literally years before you recover. And that means the rest of the world will be with you in the said crap.

Oh really? I thought we were insignificant washed up has-beens who didn't matter on the world stage anymore? Suddenly, the entire world's economics are tied to the US? What a revelation from an American-hating Brit! ...and before you chortle you're not a Brit... if the Queen is on your money, you're a Brit!

Okay, you keep clamoring for us to take off the "partisan" hats and examine this problem objectively.... so let's do that, shall we?

The problem is, we have a National Debt of $14 trillion, growing by $1.6 trillion PER YEAR! We have a Social Security retirement system which will effectively run out of money in 20-30 years, no matter what we do now. We have already spent the massive trust fund, along with about everything China will let us borrow, and the world is quickly running out of places we can borrow the amounts we need to pay our debt obligations. Our major manufacturing sector is virtually non-existent, we've allowed labor unions and minimum wage mandates, along with all the other regulations, fees, taxes, hoops to jump through for government, to drive basically everything to foreign countries, who can produce things much cheaper. So now we don't make anything in America, we import it.

The Obama Administration took a huge Keynesian gamble, and it didn't pay off... it failed miserably. There is nothing partisan in admitting that, it's a fact. What he proposed, did not work, and isn't going to work. Take off the partisan hat and look at history, and how we've always managed to pull out of a recession of any kind, is to unleash capitalism and free enterprise. The human spirit is amazing, and can make amazing things happen, when you put your faith in them, and encourage their prosperity. The leftist partisanship keeps you from realizing this, you view capitalism as evil, greedy, and bad. If you could take off your partisan hat, you'd realize, capitalism is the key to extracting us from this predicament, and really, our only way out. Even IF you want to use the tax code to wage class warfare with some partisan view that rich people must be rich because poor people are poor... well, even with a high tax on "the rich" you will need robust capitalism, or it can't work.

So now, we have a multi-prong problem, our debt and spending... AND our economy and revenues. Taking off the partisan hat and objectively considering the situation, you have to conclude our debt is the result of us spending more money than we take in. It would seem the logical non-partisan response to that, would be to spend less than we take in. By taking in more than we spend, it allows us to have the money to pay down the debt.... see how that works? Was that "partisan" or "political" to you? It seems pretty objective and reasonable as an approach... if we are spending too much, we need to spend less... right?

Now, some will say that we can raise taxes to increase revenues, and we won't have to cut as much. This might be true to an extent, but any reasonable tax increase is going to generate such a small amount of revenue in, compared to the debt we've compiled. I think a lot of people become mired in 'billions' and 'trillions' and these numbers start to lose meaning to us. $14 tril is a LOT of moolah. Whenever you increase tax rates on the top marginal earners, you effectively kill more jobs and create LESS revenue. There has never been a tax increase which sparked prosperity and growth... NEVER. So, why would it be reasonable, as a non-partisan and objective person, to do something we know will not produce more revenue or create more jobs?

 

[Liberty]

a Balanced Budget Amendment was the only way to save our credit rating.

A Balanced Budget Amendment mandates higher taxes on everyone.

It doesn't mandate reducing the debt.

 

[poet]

STOP!

This is NOT a question of party politics. This is not a question of whether the Republicans or the Democrats can run your country better.

It's about this:

Yesterday, (my yesterday not yours) Standard and Poor knocked your credit rating down one notch. At the same time European, American and Asian markets plummetted by an average of 5%. Five percent!

The European leaders with the notable exception of the schoolboys who are failing to run the UK and at this moment are sunning themselves in California, France and Italy, are meeting to discuss the looming problem of Italian and Spanish finances.

There are NO party politics in these discussions. There is a working for the common good of Europe.

A similar scenario in the US would be Obama in a corner talking to himself.

This is not like 2008. This is NOT about politics. Not about banker's greed, not about sub prime mortgages. This is a global problem and it must be tackled globally. Qualified, experienced and wise economists should be meeting together with no sign of red or blue because if Moody's and or Fitch also knock you back you are going to be so deep in the crap that it will be literally years before you recover. And that means the rest of the world will be with you in the said crap.

Obama should immediately form a cross party advisory group and then take a break. His position as president is quite likely to be meaningless unless your economy and the economies of the rest of the world are rescued.

Eventually you must increase tax revenue and reduce spending, neither can work on their own. But, no matter what the vociferous members of this forum may say, none of you, not one of you, is capable of even advising on policy without party politics clouding and sometimes obscuring your vision.

And THAT, ladies and gentlemen is a very major and significant problem.


And it affects ME! So stop this eternal childish bickering and start to pull together.

In answer to your question: In lieu of what? Or whom? Please. If the goddamn Republicans would get out of the goddamn way, and let him run his presidency, we wouldn't be in this fix. But when you have folks trying to trip you up, every hour of every day, it must be hell on Earth for him. If he is so lucky as to win a second term, he better full steam a goddamn head, and tell the Repubs they can kiss his narrow ass....and often.

 

[Lowaicue]

In answer to your question: In lieu of what? Or whom? Please. If the goddamn Republicans would get out of the goddamn way, and let him run his presidency, we wouldn't be in this fix. But when you have folks trying to trip you up, every hour of every day, it must be hell on Earth for him. If he is so lucky as to win a second term, he better full steam a goddamn head, and tell the Repubs they can kiss his narrow ass....and often.

In lieu of a non party political group, if such exists. It is precisely because of the childish spite preventing him from doing his job that he ought to take a break. Like Churchill during the war, cometh the hour, cometh the man. Churchill's use was simply to get us through the war. A group of senior economists, with no party affilliations might do the same for the US. At the very least it would shut the partisan ayjits up.

 

[Lowaicue]

Oh really? I thought we were insignificant washed up has-beens who didn't matter on the world stage anymore? Suddenly, the entire world's economics are tied to the US? What a revelation from an American-hating Brit! ...and before you chortle you're not a Brit... if the Queen is on your money, you're a Brit!

Okay, you keep clamoring for us to take off the "partisan" hats and examine this problem objectively.... so let's do that, shall we?

The problem is, we have a National Debt of $14 trillion, growing by $1.6 trillion PER YEAR! We have a Social Security retirement system which will effectively run out of money in 20-30 years, no matter what we do now. We have already spent the massive trust fund, along with about everything China will let us borrow, and the world is quickly running out of places we can borrow the amounts we need to pay our debt obligations. Our major manufacturing sector is virtually non-existent, we've allowed labor unions and minimum wage mandates, along with all the other regulations, fees, taxes, hoops to jump through for government, to drive basically everything to foreign countries, who can produce things much cheaper. So now we don't make anything in America, we import it.

The Obama Administration took a huge Keynesian gamble, and it didn't pay off... it failed miserably. There is nothing partisan in admitting that, it's a fact. What he proposed, did not work, and isn't going to work. Take off the partisan hat and look at history, and how we've always managed to pull out of a recession of any kind, is to unleash capitalism and free enterprise. The human spirit is amazing, and can make amazing things happen, when you put your faith in them, and encourage their prosperity. The leftist partisanship keeps you from realizing this, you view capitalism as evil, greedy, and bad. If you could take off your partisan hat, you'd realize, capitalism is the key to extracting us from this predicament, and really, our only way out. Even IF you want to use the tax code to wage class warfare with some partisan view that rich people must be rich because poor people are poor... well, even with a high tax on "the rich" you will need robust capitalism, or it can't work.

So now, we have a multi-prong problem, our debt and spending... AND our economy and revenues. Taking off the partisan hat and objectively considering the situation, you have to conclude our debt is the result of us spending more money than we take in. It would seem the logical non-partisan response to that, would be to spend less than we take in. By taking in more than we spend, it allows us to have the money to pay down the debt.... see how that works? Was that "partisan" or "political" to you? It seems pretty objective and reasonable as an approach... if we are spending too much, we need to spend less... right?

Now, some will say that we can raise taxes to increase revenues, and we won't have to cut as much. This might be true to an extent, but any reasonable tax increase is going to generate such a small amount of revenue in, compared to the debt we've compiled. I think a lot of people become mired in 'billions' and 'trillions' and these numbers start to lose meaning to us. $14 tril is a LOT of moolah. Whenever you increase tax rates on the top marginal earners, you effectively kill more jobs and create LESS revenue. There has never been a tax increase which sparked prosperity and growth... NEVER. So, why would it be reasonable, as a non-partisan and objective person, to do something we know will not produce more revenue or create more jobs?

This may come as a shock but the word 'global' does not mean the US. All nations are interdependant to a greater or lesser extent and at this time it is greater.
I thank you, genuinely, for your contribution. It is a pity more people do not think seriously about the things that concern us all.
BTW. I am British, born bred and buttered and Hong Kong currency no longer has portraits of the queen, her sons, daughters or even her corgis.

 

[Lowaicue]

In my opinion, that would be the best thing to do for America. The solution is to cut spending. Raising taxes is not going to happen. That's what the American people said last November.

The American people are seldom right and this is no exception.

 

[Rune]

The American people are seldom right and this is no exception.

The only righteous comment you have made so far.

Example of how ridiculous your position is, why don't you stand aside and let some other human have your oxygen.

GLOBALISM IS BULLSHIT.

 

[poet]

In lieu of a non party political group, if such exists. It is precisely because of the childish spite preventing him from doing his job that he ought to take a break. Like Churchill during the war, cometh the hour, cometh the man. Churchill's use was simply to get us through the war. A group of senior economists, with no party affilliations might do the same for the US. At the very least it would shut the partisan ayjits up.

Wow. That's all that he would need ....to take a vacation to Camp David, for a month, so the Repubs can give him more hell about it. It's a luxury he can ill afford. It's Circle the Wagons time.

 

[poet]

This may come as a shock but the word 'global' does not mean the US. All nations are interdependant to a greater or lesser extent and at this time it is greater.
I thank you, genuinely, for your contribution. It is a pity more people do not think seriously about the things that concern us all.
BTW. I am British, born bred and buttered and Hong Kong currency no longer has portraits of the queen, her sons, daughters or even her corgis.

You betta educate...these hicks have never been out of Dixie...and wouldn't know what to do with a salad fork.

 

[Annie]

If Obama stepped aside, his life insurance (whom we affectionately call Joe Biden) would be President.

Enuf said.

 

[Annie]

Europe is responsible for its own debt to a point as America is responsible for its own debt to a point. We are in 2011 and the butterfly still flaps its wings but the result travels further and faster.

Ummm, too bad that they commingled.

 

[Annie]

S&p also stated the downgrade was due to the Republicans refusing to raise revenue, cuts and taxes are both needed!

Umm, lie. They did however make clear that if anything changes regarding debt and cuts, they may downgrade further.

 

[Annie]

Obama wanted a clean increase in the debt limit, and when he couldn't get that he threatened not to pay old people if the republicans didn't agree to a deal that increased taxes... Reid realized he had a chance to take advantage.... Now we have a deal that will end in December with a choice between cutting Defense during "wartime" or increasing taxes. If the "supercongress" doesn't come up with a deal, the automatic triggers take effect, doctors will get less money from Medicare (yea, still less thus increasing our rates still more to pay for it, an effective tax on every American that isn't on Medicare) and the other half of the "cuts" will come from Defense.

The Democrats won that one, in every way. I don't know what the republicans will do, but whatever they do will involve one or the other thus providing the next year's campaign ads for the Democrats...

Is there anybody here who thinks that the six democrats on that supercommittee won't insist on tax increases? Raise your hand... :looks around:... I didn't think so.

The extension of the Bush tax cuts ends in March of 2012... Do you think they'll extend all of them?...

Totally correct. It's the reason that Obama is finally hitting the disapproval numbers he should have.

 

[Lowaicue]

The only righteous comment you have made so far.

Example of how ridiculous your position is, why don't you stand aside and let some other human have your oxygen.

GLOBALISM IS BULLSHIT.

Would you like to elucidate.

I would gladly forfeit my oxygen (if I actually owned any oxygen) and give it to the needy. I doubt, somehow that anyone in America would get any advantage.

 

[Lowaicue]

Ummm, too bad that they commingled.

Tautology

 

[Lowaicue]

And now China (Xinhua) are suggesting a new global reserve currency, the RMB. You just don't see these things coming do you?
It won't happen ... yet ... but it will happen.
Why do they suggest this?

SHANGHAI (Dow Jones)--China has "every right now" to demand the U.S. address its debt problem following the Standard and Poor's decision to downgrade U.S. government debt for the first time in 70 years, the official Xinhua news agency said Saturday.

In a biting commentary, the state news agency urged the international society to improve supervision over the U.S. dollar and said the world may need "a new, stable and secured global reserve currency to avert a catastrophe caused by any single country."

"China, the largest creditor of the world's sole superpower, has every right now to demand the United States to address its structural debt problems and ensure the safety of China's dollar assets," Xinhua said.

The remarks came after the Standard & Poor's Friday removed the U.S. government from the list of risk-free borrowers, citing concern about the rising burden of long-term federal debt.

China, with over $1 trillion invested in U.S. Treasurys, is among those that would be most immediately affected by any U.S. default or downgrade.

"To cure its addiction to debts, the United States has to reestablish the common sense principle that one should live within its means," Xinhua said.

"It should also stop its old practice of letting its domestic electoral politics take the global economy hostage and rely on the deep pockets of major surplus countries to make up for its perennial deficits," Xinhua added.

Read, read and read again the final sentence. Read it til you come to your senses ... those of you who still have them.

 

[Rune]

Too late.

This is exactly what I warned about repeatedly and was ignored.

China's position on this is just angling for them to have the ability to purchase oil with fiat currency as we have been able to do...until now.

THANKS BONER YOU FUCKING WORM POS.

Why aren't you calling for Boner to step aside LowI.Q. ?

Furthermore, China is dreaming if they think RMB is going to be the next global trading currency.

The most devastating blow of all will come when the IMF issues trading currency. A private bank to the world that China and the US will have to pay interest to.

Fuck all you republican asswipes. Really. Fuck you all so hard and long that you fucking bleed to death.

 

[Rune]

Would you like to elucidate.

I doubt, somehow that anyone in America would get any advantage.

Exactly my point. Thankyou.

The Rothschilds win.

 

[Lowaicue]

Too late.

This is exactly what I warned about repeatedly and was ignored.

China's position on this is just angling for them to have the ability to purchase oil with fiat currency as we have been able to do...until now.

THANKS BONER YOU FUCKING WORM POS.

Why aren't you calling for Boner to step aside LowI.Q. ?

Furthermore, China is dreaming if they think RMB is going to be the next global trading currency.

The most devastating blow of all will come when the IMF issues trading currency. A private bank to the world that China and the US will have to pay interest to.

Fuck all you republican asswipes. Really. Fuck you all so hard and long that you fucking bleed to death.

I was suggesting that Obama, as representative of all party politicians, step aside. That is that doctors and not politicians be employed to attempt to cure the sick.