Voters blame Bush more than Obama for the economy

[Bonestorm]

It isn't being a fool to state that things are worse. Ask anyone who cannot find a job if things are 'better' or 'worse'. Some things have certainly gotten better.... the stock market, the banks, GDP.... but look at what hits the average consumer Lorax.

1) Inflation in food, energy, clothing, gasoline.
2) A declining dollar weakening purchasing power.
3) Unemployment going from under 8% to persistently staying higher than 9%
4) Insanity from the Federal (and many States) in terms of deficit spending, with no end in sight. We are actually seeing the two parties arguing over whether to cut deficit spending by $300b per year vs. $400b per year over the next decade. At current levels (and projected) that means we would STILL be deficit spending by over $700b per year for the next decade. (not to long ago a certain President was condemned for a deficit of $480B.... and rightfully so)
5) Foreclosures remain high and look to continue to worsen (which means those games the banks are playing with Treasuries, better be a 'win' for them.... or we start this process all over again)


It is a matter of perspective Lorax. If you look at it strictly from a GDP standpoint, you are correct, it would be silly to say it has worsened. But looking at it from the perspective of the average individual, it most certainly has worsened.

(1) In 2008, inflation was 3.85%. For 2009, we actually experienced deflation. in 2010, inflation was 1.6%. In 2011, the average is 2.76%.

(2) The "weak dollar" is by design and it's got nothing to do with Obama.

(3) Yes, unemployment is high. But that's what you get with severe recessions. You can blame Obama for not doing what is necessary to improve unemployment, and I do, but to pretend that it's Obama's fault that employment lags is kind of silly. He inherited a recession that didn't end until 6 months after he was in office.

(4) Yes, deficits are high.

(5) How did Obama make the foreclosure problem worse? This makes no sense. Again, you can blame him for not making things better, but I don't see how his policies have worsened the problem.

 

[Onceler]

That is where you are wrong. The things I list are the EXACT reason that people think the economy is WORSE than it was. The average person does not look at GDP and say 'gee, things are better'. They DO look at the price of food, gasoline, energy bills, clothing, unemployment etc... THAT is what they FEEL personally. That is what hits them the hardest.... not 'what is the stock market doing' or 'are those banks doing alright'.

As for employment, DO explain to us how the jobs market is better given that the unemployment rate has remained above 9%. While it is indeed a lagging indicator, you are smoking crack if you think it lags by over 2 years.

As for the random indicator like 'gas'.... gasoline prices effect damn near every aspect of our lives. Keep that in mind as Obama is tossed next year... because there is nothing to indicate things are getting better from this point forward.

Dude, you're an idiot if you think it's harder to find a job now than it was in '08. No one was hiring anyone in '08. NO ONE. And we were losing hundreds of thousands of jobs per month. At least companies are hiring now, and jobs are being added - not nearly enough, to be sure. But you have to be braindead to think it's harder to find a job now.

As for gas, like I said - it has very little to do with American domestic policy. I realize you're spinning & grasping at straws, but it is what it is.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

(1) In 2008, inflation was 3.85%. For 2009, we actually experienced deflation. in 2010, inflation was 1.6%. In 2011, the average is 2.76%.

Read what I wrote moron. I stated inflation in "food, energy, clothing, gasoline". I know the overall inflation numbers are low.... due to HOUSING. But again moron, how many people out there do you think say 'gee, I wonder what my home is worth today'?? Now how many think 'how am I going to pay for my energy, food, clothing etc...' Which effects them on a DAILY basis?

(2) The "weak dollar" is by design and it's got nothing to do with Obama.

ROFLMAO.... so you think the insane levels of spending by Obama and Congress has nothing to do with the weak dollar? That the Fed policy occurring under Obama's watch of flooding the market with cash has nothing to do with the weak dollar? Funny, I could have sworn that EVERYTHING that occurred while Bush was President was 'his fault'. I suppose the fact that the real estate and financial markets imploded while he was President, weren't his fault, because his policies had nothing to do with that. Right?

(3) Yes, unemployment is high. But that's what you get with severe recessions. You can blame Obama for not doing what is necessary to improve unemployment, and I do, but to pretend that it's Obama's fault that employment lags is kind of silly. He inherited a recession that didn't end until 6 months after he was in office.

ROFLMAO.... yes, you do get that with recessions. Show me where I said it was Obama's fault that employment lags. You fucking straw man creating hack.

(4) Yes, deficits are high.

Wow, you understood one. Congrats.

(5) How did Obama make the foreclosure problem worse? This makes no sense. Again, you can blame him for not making things better, but I don't see how his policies have worsened the problem.

Again, show me where I stated his policies made it worse. I said the PROBLEM is WORSE. Inaction can also make things WORSE you moron.

 

[PostmodernProphet]

The crash worsened? Really?

Got any stats for that?

well yes, if you look at unemployment, housing foreclosures, deficit spending.....yes......do you need more?

 

[Jarod]

Problem is, blaming Bush, regardless of his culpability, aint fixing the problem. There's an old addage "Fix the problem not the blame."

Yes Obama inherited a shit sandwhich from one of the most inept Presidents in US history but he wasn't hired to make excuses. He was hired to fix the problem. The only person an excuse pleases is one self.....and Damned Yankee.

Blaming Obama aint fixing the problem.

 

[Bonestorm]

Read what I wrote moron. I stated inflation in "food, energy, clothing, gasoline". I know the overall inflation numbers are low.... due to HOUSING. But again moron, how many people out there do you think say 'gee, I wonder what my home is worth today'?? Now how many think 'how am I going to pay for my energy, food, clothing etc...' Which effects them on a DAILY basis?

OK, fuck it. Compare inflation in food, energy, clothing and gasoline in 2007-08 to 2009-11 and tell me what you come up with.

ROFLMAO.... so you think the insane levels of spending by Obama and Congress has nothing to do with the weak dollar? That the Fed policy occurring under Obama's watch of flooding the market with cash has nothing to do with the weak dollar? Funny, I could have sworn that EVERYTHING that occurred while Bush was President was 'his fault'. I suppose the fact that the real estate and financial markets imploded while he was President, weren't his fault, because his policies had nothing to do with that. Right?

Obama doesn't control Fed policies. The FED is responsible for the weak dollar policy and it doing so because Congress isn't doing anything to promote growth and is instead pursuing contractionary policies.

ROFLMAO.... yes, you do get that with recessions. Show me where I said it was Obama's fault that employment lags. You fucking straw man creating hack.

You said Obama made unemployment worse. I'm not sure how you can plausibly arrive at that conclusion. Explain how he made it worse.

Wow, you understood one. Congrats.

FARGLE BARGLE.

Again, show me where I stated his policies made it worse. I said the PROBLEM is WORSE. Inaction can also make things WORSE you moron.

OK. Maybe I misunderstood you. What should Obama have done to make the foreclosure problem better that he did not do?

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Dude, you're an idiot if you think it's harder to find a job now than it was in '08. No one was hiring anyone in '08. NO ONE. And we were losing hundreds of thousands of jobs per month. At least companies are hiring now, and jobs are being added - not nearly enough, to be sure. But you have to be braindead to think it's harder to find a job now.

Again moron, you are quite wrong. It is not easier. You have MORE people looking for jobs today. More people OUT of jobs today. It is far worse to be looking today as there is far more competition. That is why people compare the unemployment rate from one period to the next. It shows how BAD it is. The fact that we aren't continuing to hemorrhage jobs doesn't change that fact.

As for gas, like I said - it has very little to do with American domestic policy. I realize you're spinning & grasping at straws, but it is what it is.

ROFLMAO... stick to picking on Yurt, you are out of your depth here. Hence your spinning. Go out and see how many people think gasoline prices have very little to do with our economy. My guess is you, Mott and Dung will be standing alone.

 

[Onceler]

Again moron, you are quite wrong. It is not easier. You have MORE people looking for jobs today. More people OUT of jobs today. It is far worse to be looking today as there is far more competition. That is why people compare the unemployment rate from one period to the next. It shows how BAD it is. The fact that we aren't continuing to hemorrhage jobs doesn't change that fact.



ROFLMAO... stick to picking on Yurt, you are out of your depth here. Hence your spinning. Go out and see how many people think gasoline prices have very little to do with our economy. My guess is you, Mott and Dung will be standing alone.

It's interesting you mention Yurt - where did I say gas prices have little to do w/ the economy? You appear to have the same reading issues as he does.

And no, Virginia - it is not harder to find a job now than it was in '08, when - just to repeat - NO ONE was hiring. You're really grasping at straws. This discussion has turned embarassing for you, but I realize that you have your heels dug in.

Again - the answer is "no," the crash has not worsened since '08, by any rational measure.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

OK, fuck it. Compare inflation in food, energy, clothing and gasoline in 2007-08 to 2009-11 and tell me what you come up with.

Gasoline at the start of 2007 was $2.29 on average in the US. At the end of 2008 it was an average of $1.59. ($1.83 when Obama took office). It is currently at $3.608.

Cotton at the start of 2007 was at $50/contract. at the end of 2008 it was at $50/contract. It is currently at $100 per contract.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.t01.htm shows food over the past year and you can look on the site for the rest of the years.....

Obama doesn't control Fed policies. The FED is responsible for the weak dollar policy and it doing so because Congress isn't doing anything to promote growth and is instead pursuing contractionary policies.

Funny how the President has no responsibility for anything now that Bush is gone.

You said Obama made unemployment worse. I'm not sure how you can plausibly arrive at that conclusion. Explain how he made it worse.

Again, I stated unemployment was worse. His inaction has made it worse.

OK. Maybe I misunderstood you. What should Obama have done to make the foreclosure problem better that he did not do?

Not shocking given your eagerness to build your straw men.

For starters he could have used the 'stimulus' money to actually create jobs. More jobs, means fewer people struggling to make payments.

 

[Bonestorm]

Gasoline at the start of 2007 was $2.29 on average in the US. At the end of 2008 it was an average of $1.59. ($1.83 when Obama took office). It is currently at $3.608.

Cotton at the start of 2007 was at $50/contract. at the end of 2008 it was at $50/contract. It is currently at $100 per contract.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.t01.htm shows food over the past year and you can look on the site for the rest of the years.....

Let's count Sept. - Dec. 2008 as 2009.

The reality is that we are getting back to where we were pre-recession.

Funny how the President has no responsibility for anything now that Bush is gone.

That a funny read of my comment. The president isn't responsible for monetary policy.

Again, I stated unemployment was worse. His inaction has made it worse.

Worse than when? We agree that unemployment lags. We agree that Obama inherited a server recession. We should be able to agree that the recession ended in June 2009. We also should be able to agree that unemployment peaked at over 10% in October 2009 and has improved since. So what is Obama responsible for here and what actions should he have taken to improve unemployment?

Not shocking given your eagerness to build your straw men.

For starters he could have used the 'stimulus' money to actually create jobs. More jobs, means fewer people struggling to make payments.

"Use stimulus money to create jobs." That's a hell of a plan. I can't believe no one thought of that yet.


Basically, you're saying that Obama made things worse by not making them better. But most of these things are better.

 

[Damocles]

You've said the following more times than I can count: "I simply adore Bush. He's the bestest thing that ever happened to me, and I would do anything for him."

How can you deny that?

lol. I don't know anybody who says that. Even Dixie only said he looks good in jeans. (yeah, we all know you didn't really say that Dix).

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

It's interesting you mention Yurt - where did I say gas prices have little to do w/ the economy? You appear to have the same reading issues as he does.

sorry, you stated 'American domestic policy'... Forgive me for thinking the American Economy was the foremost issue when it comes to American domestic policy. Totally my fault. How could I have been so silly.

And no, Virginia - it is not harder to find a job now than it was in '08, when - just to repeat - NO ONE was hiring. You're really grasping at straws. This discussion has turned embarassing for you, but I realize that you have your heels dug in.

ROFLMAO... lets do this with a bit of math.... is it easier to find a job when 6,000,000 people are looking for work and a job opens or when 12,000,000 people are looking for work and a job opens?

Are more people better off when 8% are unemployed or when 9% are unemployed?

Again - the answer is "no," the crash has not worsened since '08, by any rational measure.

As I stated, in technical terms you are correct. GDP has improved. The stock market has recovered much of what it lost from its peak. But again, my point is not what is technically true with regards to GDP, but what does the average person think is true? What do THEY feel about the economy? What components of the economy hurt/help them? In the matters that hit them daily... they feel worse off and it is reflected in sentiment.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...LODO0K6K50YG01-5TNOPL7RLPQDTOL8B2CL1BPJM0.DTL

 

[Onceler]

Freak, you're a complete idiot at this point. Saying that oil prices are only minimally influenced by American domestic policy is a complete, 100% different concept than saying that rising gas prices have no effect on the American economy. I appreciate your effort to spin that embarassment of yours, but please - that's utterly ridiculous. I never, in any way shape or form, said that gas prices don't affect the economy. What a blithering idiot.

And yes - it's easier to find a job when people are actually hiring, as opposed to when they're not.

Are you done trying to save face? Because you haven't, and you can't.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Freak, you're a complete idiot at this point. Saying that oil prices are only minimally influenced by American domestic policy is a complete, 100% different concept than saying that rising gas prices have no effect on the American economy. I appreciate your effort to spin that embarassment of yours, but please - that's utterly ridiculous. I never, in any way shape or form, said that gas prices don't affect the economy. What a blithering idiot.

Your desperation is showing. Saying oil prices are only minimally influenced by American domestic policy is blatantly false. It is also directly tied into gasoline prices you dolt. You stated that "As for gas, like I said - it has very little to do with American domestic policy".... which again is completely FALSE as American domestic policy has a huge impact on oil prices, which in turn effects gasoline prices, which in turn can be quite destructive to the American economy. It is all tied together you moron.

And yes - it's easier to find a job when people are actually hiring, as opposed to when they're not.

You started by saying the jobs market wasn't worse. It is... that is what the unemployment rate tells us. I will grant you that the odds of getting a job for an individual are better when the net jobs are positive vs. negative. But that doesn't make the jobs market better overall than it was. It is not. You have to get those people who lost jobs between then and now back to work and THEN continue hiring to get the unemployment rate back under where it was.

I can't help but notice you don't want to use actual numbers.... why is that?

and you accuse ME of spinning and trying to save face.

 

[Onceler]

And now, the spin is careening out of control. If you wanted to argue that my statement about American policy minimally influencing oil prices was wrong, the time to do it was when I said it; but you chose instead to somehow spin that domestic policy affecting oil prices = thinking that gas prices don't affect the economy. Any way you slice that, it's 100% boneheaded. You could just admit that you read it wrong, and that you were wrong about it. But you're in crazed spin mode now.

You keep trotting out 8% to 9% on unemployment, which is also boneheaded. In my response to both you & bravo, I was pretty clear that the judgment period wasn't inauguration day, but when Obama's policies were actually starting to be implemented & taking effect. Sorry about that, but the #'s actually go 10% to 9% on that....once again, refuting bravo's contention that the crash "worsened" with Obama.

You shouldn't try to defend idiotic stuff like that; that way, you wouldn't spend a whole morning spinning like a madman. You know it's indefensible.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

And now, the spin is careening out of control. If you wanted to argue that my statement about American policy minimally influencing oil prices was wrong, the time to do it was when I said it; but you chose instead to somehow spin that domestic policy affecting oil prices = thinking that gas prices don't affect the economy. Any way you slice that, it's 100% boneheaded. You could just admit that you read it wrong, and that you were wrong about it. But you're in crazed spin mode now.

Go back and look at what I wrote moron.

I said "As for the random indicator like 'gas'.... gasoline prices effect damn near every aspect of our lives..."

YOU replied: 'As for gas, like I said - it has very little to do with American domestic policy. '

I then stated: "Go out and see how many people think gasoline prices have very little to do with our economy"

YOU replied "where did I say gas prices have little to do w/ the economy?"

I then stated: "sorry, you stated 'American domestic policy'... Forgive me for thinking the American Economy was the foremost issue when it comes to American domestic policy. Totally my fault. How could I have been so silly."

YOU replied "Saying that oil prices are only minimally influenced by American domestic policy is a complete, 100% different concept than saying that rising gas prices have no effect on the American economy."

I then stated: "Saying oil prices are only minimally influenced by American domestic policy is blatantly false. It is also directly tied into gasoline prices you dolt. You stated that "As for gas, like I said - it has very little to do with American domestic policy".... which again is completely FALSE as American domestic policy has a huge impact on oil prices, which in turn effects gasoline prices, which in turn can be quite destructive to the American economy. It is all tied together you moron."

and here we are..... so tell us you putz... WHO is spinning?

You keep trotting out 8% to 9% on unemployment, which is also boneheaded. In my response to both you & bravo, I was pretty clear that the judgment period wasn't inauguration day, but when Obama's policies were actually starting to be implemented & taking effect. Sorry about that, but the #'s actually go 10% to 9% on that....once again, refuting bravo's contention that the crash "worsened" with Obama.

Ah, more spinning... do tell us, which post was it that you 'made it clear' you were referring to some point after Obama's policies went into effect? Is it when you kept comparing the job market of 2008 to the job market of today? Which post did you make it clear Lorax?

You shouldn't try to defend idiotic stuff like that; that way, you wouldn't spend a whole morning spinning like a madman. You know it's indefensible.[/QUOTE]

 

[Onceler]

I'll tell you who is spinning: you.

That was dizzying. Why can't you just say that you misread my comments (which were pretty clear?) The above is just breathtaking...

 

[Onceler]

Please don't be such a fool. You're certainly smarter than bravo & PMP. The correct answer, as you know, is that the CRASH most certainly did not "worsen" on Obama's watch - particularly after his policies were implemented.

You can argue that his policies were ineffective if you'd like, or that the turnaround is weak, but it's ludicrous to argue that the "crash" worsened.

And here you go....

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I'll tell you who is spinning: you.

That was dizzying. Why can't you just say that you misread my comments (which were pretty clear?) The above is just breathtaking...

1) On the one discrepancy.... you stating 'American domestic policy' and my referring to the 'economy' in my reply, I did acknowledge that you had phrased it differently. I then went on to explain to you why the economy is an important aspect of 'American domestic policy'.

2) Why do you not go back and read what was written? You stated gas was a 'random indicator', I replied that it was a very important indicator given its impact on the overall economy. You in turn SPUN it into 'gas has little to do with American domestic policy'. YOUR SPINNING began THERE. Are you going to acknowledge that?

3) YOU then began to SPIN with "Saying that oil prices are only minimally influenced by American domestic policy is a complete, 100% different concept than saying that rising gas prices have no effect on the American economy." To that point... NEITHER of us had stated ANY SUCH THING. You were SPINNING away from the fact that GAS prices are an important indicator and trying to divert the topic from there.

4) SHOW where you think it was that I spun this.

5) SHOW where you made it 'clear' on what you were talking about with employment.... instead of simply running away from it. Surely if you were 'clear', you can point to the post... right?

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

And here you go....

Yet you continued to compare the JOBS numbers from 2008 to now.... so how is that 'clear'? It obviously wasn't even clear to YOU as YOU are the one that kept comparing 2008 to NOW.... which is WHY I used the same time frame.