For the love of God, enough already!

[Bfgrn]

Absolute Bullshit!!

With what we know about this tragedy there should be cries for more help for the mentally ill. But is there?

No. There are dozens of threads blaming Palin and the teabaggers for this shooting.




I have no problem with Palin catching shit for her stupidity. But this is not about Palin. This is about a lunatic opening fire and killing people. Trying to place that blame on Palin is disgusting.

Historically, you have as much chance of the right calling for 'more help for the mentally ill' as you will finding ice cubes in hell.

The Republicans and the right in America today believe the only way to solve our problems is through punishment. And if that doesn't work, the punishment is just not severe enough. I suggest you research the 1994 Crimes Bill and how Republicans and the right demonized the most constructive part of that bill that included many 'more help for the mentally ill' ideas.

In the early to mid 90's Congress crafted a crimes bill. I will not not go into the many unintended consequences of the bill, but the original funding framework called for equal thirds of the money to go to 1) police enforcement 2) prisons 3) crime prevention

The crime prevention part of the bill would go toward education, job training, community engagement by law enforcement, child-centered activities (money for arts and crafts, dance programs, recreational activities, nutrition training, and so forth), assorted inner city youth activity programs, urban parks and recreation, schools (money is to be used "to improve the academic and social development of youths by instituting a collaborative structure that trains and coordinates efforts of social workers, teachers, and principles."), youth development for such activities as "providing youth with life skills" , drug treatment programs in prisons. and facilities like community centers.

Statistics showed that the majority of youth crimes are committed after school lets out and before dinner time. It is not difficult to see what is missing during that time period, adult supervision. So the idea was to provide a safe and supervised facility where these kids could go.

It was during this period that Newt Gingrich and the 'Contract with America' Republicans took over Congress.

The 'Contract with America' Republicans attacked and demonized this part of the bill. They tried to label the whole crime prevention part of the bill paying for 'midnight basketball'

The real irony of that debate; Police Chiefs from around the country ascended on Washington to lobby Congress FOR the prevention provisions, because they knew that the best way to help law enforcement was not more police or more punishment, it was through education, training and community activism.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Sorry WinterBorn, but you are drawing a false equivalency. You can find traces of this on the left, and OVERWHELMING evidence on the right. I don't hate anyone, but I do hate violence. It IS acceptable to call out the people who embrace the violent imagery and rhetoric because I DID IT BEFORE this happened, not just after.

I had arguments back when Palin placed her gun sights on Democrats, and I was called a sissy lib, bleeding heart...all the macho right wing bluster.

I will not let the right get away with calling liberals pacifists, bleeding hearts and sissies when it is convenient for their argument, and the cry foul when they are called out on their acceptance and even embrace of violent rhetoric or their attempts to intimidate by the hint on violence.


“If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands.”
Douglas Adams

You are a fucking moron.... try waiting for the facts of the matter to be revealed before you post your vitriolic bullshit.

http://www.salon.com/news/gabrielle...itics/war_room/2011/01/09/loughner_not_though

Based on his MySpace page and series of YouTube videos he apparently made, Loughner is fixated on his area’s literacy rate, government "mind control methods," and ... something having to do with America’s currency. A high school classmate describes him as "left-wing." He also is apparently fond of "Mein Kampf" and Karl Marx and may be somehow connected to a fringe anti-immigration group. And he despised Giffords. Make what you will of all of that. My hunch is that Lougnher is just basically crazy, and that his political thinking isn’t particularly coherent or organized.

As the salon author states.... this guy was just batshit crazy. According to the classmate, the guy was on the LEFT fringe.

But please, go back to telling us how someone who is fond of Marx was acting on behalf of the Tea Party. Because we all know how much Marx and the Tea Party have in common.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

It is NOT used by both sides. Yes, there are small traces of it from the left, but the right OWNS IT, embraces it and uses it to charge up their base. It is 'macho' and it makes the right feel empowered. Where it is totally repulsive to liberals. I'm sure you would have found Harry Truman unreasonable, because he would never cower to your lies and bullshit.

The condolences are HOLLOW...where were you when Palin posted that shit on her website...probably defending HER rights to post it.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/palin-target-graphic-in-perspective/dlc-targeting-strategy/

yeah... because the left has never used 'targeting' of districts or states they want to pick up in the election. Never happened.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

this is fucking hillarious, the SS is here saying that it's coincidence that the lady in the target was shot randomly. BHAHAHAH

Read the Salon article moron. This guy was simply a lunatic. A lunatic who was fond of Marx. To pretend he was doing this because of the tea party is simply absurd.

 

[WinterBorn]

Historically, you have as much chance of the right calling for 'more help for the mentally ill' as you will finding ice cubes in hell.

The Republicans and the right in America today believe the only way to solve our problems is through punishment. And if that doesn't work, the punishment is just not severe enough. I suggest you research the 1994 Crimes Bill and how Republicans and the right demonized the most constructive part of that bill that included many 'more help for the mentally ill' ideas.

In the early to mid 90's Congress crafted a crimes bill. I will not not go into the many unintended consequences of the bill, but the original funding framework called for equal thirds of the money to go to 1) police enforcement 2) prisons 3) crime prevention

The crime prevention part of the bill would go toward education, job training, community engagement by law enforcement, child-centered activities (money for arts and crafts, dance programs, recreational activities, nutrition training, and so forth), assorted inner city youth activity programs, urban parks and recreation, schools (money is to be used "to improve the academic and social development of youths by instituting a collaborative structure that trains and coordinates efforts of social workers, teachers, and principles."), youth development for such activities as "providing youth with life skills" , drug treatment programs in prisons. and facilities like community centers.

Statistics showed that the majority of youth crimes are committed after school lets out and before dinner time. It is not difficult to see what is missing during that time period, adult supervision. So the idea was to provide a safe and supervised facility where these kids could go.

It was during this period that Newt Gingrich and the 'Contract with America' Republicans took over Congress.

The 'Contract with America' Republicans attacked and demonized this part of the bill. They tried to label the whole crime prevention part of the bill paying for 'midnight basketball'

The real irony of that debate; Police Chiefs from around the country ascended on Washington to lobby Congress FOR the prevention provisions, because they knew that the best way to help law enforcement was not more police or more punishment, it was through education, training and community activism.

Ok, so use this incident to shout and raise awareness. It is far more productive than jumping to bullshit conclusions about motives and blaming Palin.

The point that you seem to be missing is not whether the right says it more. The point of this thread is that it is just fucking wrong to be blaming anyone or anything until we get the facts.

So far, there is no connection.

 

[christiefan915]

And Glenn Beck says he doesn't promote violence, BUT the nut that set out to murder the people at the Tides Foundation fingered Beck as the one that showed him they were a dire threat to America.

Words have consequences. And when they are nothing but fabricated lies and propaganda, it is a form of terrorism.

Glenn Beck's rhetoric also figured in Richard Poplawski's killing of three cops here back in 2009.

"...not only did Richard Poplawski avidly participate in white-supremacist online forums and right-wing conspiracy-theory sites, he also avidly consumed mainstream conservative media, particularly Fox.

The classic instance of this: A few weeks ago, Poplawski posted a clip of Beck talking about FEMA concentration camps on the neo-Nazi Stormfront forum site. (You can see the clip from the show in question above.)"

http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/why-are-media-ignoring-richard-popla

 

[WinterBorn]

Glenn Beck's rhetoric also figured in Richard Poplawski's killing of three cops here back in 2009.

"...not only did Richard Poplawski avidly participate in white-supremacist online forums and right-wing conspiracy-theory sites, he also avidly consumed mainstream conservative media, particularly Fox.

The classic instance of this: A few weeks ago, Poplawski posted a clip of Beck talking about FEMA concentration camps on the neo-Nazi Stormfront forum site. (You can see the clip from the show in question above.)"

http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/why-are-media-ignoring-richard-popla

Ok, you have connections there.


Any for this particular tragedy??? Why won't you people understand why some of us are arguing? It is not defending the right. It is to try and keep this tragedy seen for what it is and not as some political grandstanding and perverting a murderous event for political gain.

WTF is wrong with you people??????



If you want to try and make the point that the hostile political climate is to blame, isn't contributing to that climate wrong??

Jeez, wtf has to be said to get thru???

 

[christiefan915]

It is/was a tactic used by both sides of the aisle, and while arguably distasteful, it had nothing to do with the shooting of Congresswoman Giffords. Like you, the perpetrator was simply an angry person. Most liberals on this site are reasonable, decent folk... you're not one of them.

You're right that it's distasteful and has been used by both sides. But we can't say with any certainty that the shooter was not influenced by violent rhetoric, because he's not talking yet. Maybe he was angry because violent rhetoric got his stirred up. Or maybe not.

 

[PostmodernProphet]

No, the only people guilty of politicizing this tragedy are the people like Palin who politicized violence against Democrats BEFORE this tragedy happened.

not true.....you are doing it at this very moment....

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

You're right that it's distasteful and has been used by both sides. But we can't say with any certainty that the shooter was not influenced by violent rhetoric, because he's not talking yet. Maybe he was angry because violent rhetoric got his stirred up. Or maybe not.

Which brings us back to the main point.... take a look at the vast majority of articles and comments on this tragedy. As you stated, we don't know for sure what set this guy off... yet the left has over 100 articles and thousands of comments from readers proclaiming that it was Palin that set him off etc...

This guy was a nut. From what we have seen thus far, it is not likely he would be a fan of Palin or the tea party. Yet THAT is the assumption the left immediately jumped to. They saw an opportunity to attack and they did. Using a tragedy like this to further a political view is pathetic.

He was a nutter. They exist within every group in our society.

 

[WinterBorn]

You're right that it's distasteful and has been used by both sides. But we can't say with any certainty that the shooter was not influenced by violent rhetoric, because he's not talking yet. Maybe he was angry because violent rhetoric got his stirred up. Or maybe not.

Can you say for certain that James Earl Ray was not influenced by reading Winnie the Pooh when he was young? No you can't. Your statement was a waste of bandwidth.

Why not wait until we actually get some facts before piling on Palin and the teabaggers?

 

[christiefan915]

Ok, you have connections there.


Any for this particular tragedy??? Why won't you people understand why some of us are arguing? It is not defending the right. It is to try and keep this tragedy seen for what it is and not as some political grandstanding and perverting a murderous event for political gain.

WTF is wrong with you people??????

If you want to try and make the point that the hostile political climate is to blame, isn't contributing to that climate wrong??

Jeez, wtf has to be said to get thru???

So far the shooter isn't talking, so anybody who says he wasn't influenced by the rhetoric is simply operating on supposition. All theories are on the table at this point.

If you want to blame it on mental illness, then admit that even delusional people have a method in their madness, wrong as it is. Mark David Chapman, John Hinckley, Charlie Manson, Seung-Hui Cho, Dylan Klebold, etc. all had a skewed reality based on how they interpreted the world. It's not crazy to think that violent people have a warped way of dealing with their frustrations, and that violent imagery and rhetoric can add fuel to the fire.

I said this countless times yesterday, that I don't blame Palin, conservatives or the TP for the shootings, but people with their own agendas continue to deny my words. It's not a lie to say that the political climate in this country has taken a huge turn for the worse in the last two years and that inflammatory rhetoric is a big contributor

You and others have stated that there was violent rhetoric during the bush years and that's a fair point. Many people despised bush for taking the country into two endless wars, but just as many or more defended him. I don't see the same agenda now. I see extremists hating Obama and Democrats simply for being what they see as liberal, and the ramped-up hate speech began before Obama's election. "Take our country back", "the tree of Liberty needs to be watered, etc." "liberal thugocracy" and the like are all slogans attempting to divide the country into enemy camps. For what?

It's not just "us people" who see links between violent rhetoric and violent actions. It's all over the news. It's people trying to make sense of yet another senseless killing. People search for reasons and look for remedies in the hopes that future tragedies will be averted if certain actions are taken. Maybe toning down violent rhetoric is one of those actions.

 

[christiefan915]

Can you say for certain that James Earl Ray was not influenced by reading Winnie the Pooh when he was young? No you can't. Your statement was a waste of bandwidth.

Why not wait until we actually get some facts before piling on Palin and the teabaggers?

First of all, I have NOT piled on Palin and the TP. How many times do I have to say this?

I say all theories are on the table at this point and my opinion is as valid as yours.

 

[Damocles]

First of all, I have NOT piled on Palin and the TP. How many times do I have to say this?

I say all theories are on the table at this point and my opinion is as valid as yours.

I'll tell you my "theory"...

The sheriff's department has 16 reports of him threatening the lives of others. 16 times they had it reported that this man told somebody that he was going to kill people yet the answer these people got was that he was being "well handled" by the mental health professionals. Seriously.

Then the guy in charge of this particular office, who told people he was being handled by mental health professionals, who never even had him put into a center for a simple psych hold, and who knew he was clearly threatening danger to others has tried to blame anybody but his own office who had direct knowledge of the man's danger and did nothing.

My "theory" is that had the Sheriff actually forced a psych eval this guy couldn't have legally purchased the weapon he used and may even have been admitted for forced therapy as a danger to others. Instead, we have long arguments about some website that has nothing to do with this guy's lunacy. He killed a 9 year old girl because he believed everybody there was an "enemy" for gawd's sake. This has nothing to do with a stupid campaign gimmick. Nothing.

 

[christiefan915]

I'll tell you my "theory"...

The sheriff's department has 16 reports of him threatening the lives of others. 16 times they had it reported that this man told somebody that he was going to kill people yet the answer these people got was that he was being "well handled" by the mental health professionals. Seriously.

Then the guy in charge of this particular office, who told people he was being handled by mental health professionals, who never even had him put into a center for a simple psych hold, and who knew he was clearly threatening danger to others has tried to blame anybody but his own office who had direct knowledge of the man's danger and did nothing.

My "theory" is that had the Sheriff actually forced a psych eval this guy couldn't have legally purchased the weapon he used and may even have been admitted for forced therapy as a danger to others. Instead, we have long arguments about some website that has nothing to do with this guy's lunacy. He killed a 9 year old girl because he believed everybody there was an "enemy" for gawd's sake. This has nothing to do with a stupid campaign gimmick. Nothing.

Your theory is just as good as any other.

Of the little we know, he did target Giffords, though.

 

[Bfgrn]

You are a fucking moron.... try waiting for the facts of the matter to be revealed before you post your vitriolic bullshit.

http://www.salon.com/news/gabrielle...itics/war_room/2011/01/09/loughner_not_though



As the salon author states.... this guy was just batshit crazy. According to the classmate, the guy was on the LEFT fringe.

But please, go back to telling us how someone who is fond of Marx was acting on behalf of the Tea Party. Because we all know how much Marx and the Tea Party have in common.

I don't care if it's Karl Marx. It still doesn't excuse Palin, Kelly or any of the other right wing gun lickers who revel in '2nd amendment solutions'


The call to arms has not come from the left. Right wing paranoia will have you believe Obama is coming for your guns.

Gun-Toter At Obama Town Hall

 

[Socrtease]

What made this guy shoot Giffords and everyone else was bad wiring. His neurons were not firing right, brain chemicals were not being absorbed into the brain correctly and it caused him to go out with a gun and shoot 6 people to death and wound another 12. SOMETHING was GOING to set this guy off. His rantings are the rantings of a paranoid individual. He put together Literacy, gold and government mind control and used that as the foundation for his "political cause". This guy was nuts. Son of Sam said the neighbor's dog made him do it. Never heard anyone talk about toning down the rhetoric or neighborhood dogs, because that would be FUCKING CRAZY. David Berkowitz was FUCKING CRAZY! This Loughner guy is FUCKING CRAZY. There are crazy people in every walk of life and of every political stripe. Palin's poster does not create violence in people not otherwise predisposed to violence. This guy was dangerous and local law enforcement did nothing to protect their community. We do not censor political or any other speech based on the effect it might have on FUCKING CRAZY people.

 

[Onceler]

Is anyone actually suggesting censorship?

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

What made this guy shoot Giffords and everyone else was bad wiring. His neurons were not firing right, brain chemicals were not being absorbed into the brain correctly and it caused him to go out with a gun and shoot 6 people to death and wound another 12. SOMETHING was GOING to set this guy off. His rantings are the rantings of a paranoid individual. He put together Literacy, gold and government mind control and used that as the foundation for his "political cause". This guy was nuts. Son of Sam said the neighbor's dog made him do it. Never heard anyone talk about toning down the rhetoric or neighborhood dogs, because that would be FUCKING CRAZY. David Berkowitz was FUCKING CRAZY! This Loughner guy is FUCKING CRAZY. There are crazy people in every walk of life and of every political stripe. Palin's poster does not create violence in people not otherwise predisposed to violence. This guy was dangerous and local law enforcement did nothing to protect their community. We do not censor political or any other speech based on the effect it might have on FUCKING CRAZY people.

exactly

 

[Minister of Truth]

For the love of God, here's something we can all agree is worthwhile!!

.