If God were real, you wouldn’t need a book

[ZenMode]

That's what your paradox is, alright.

There is no paradox any more than I actually care about potatoes.

You play word games and troll. I ignore it or dismiss it as "incoherent babbling".

 

[Margot]

You go on a date and have sex. The woman later feels it was not what she wanted. Rape? Maybe, maybe not.

That happens

 

[Margot]

Has anyone considered that human beings on Earth are the reality TV shows for >fill in the deity (ies) of your choice<?

I wonder what that's supposed to mean?

 

[Cypress]

I mean, the Bible is pitched as the word of God, so...

So....not written by God, written by fallible men.
The Bible isn't a historical treatise.
The high school or college educated person recognizes there are different literary genres: parable, metaphor, hyperbole, poetry, historical narrative, etc.

The archeological data on the ground does not support a historicity of mass destruction and genocide in the archaic period. The most reasonable literary interpretation is that the Hebrew scribes were using hyperbole and literary licence.

Your strict biblical literalism and your repeated claims of mass genocide are not supported by the data on the ground.

Yaweh/God/Jesus wrote none of the Bible. We have little idea who wrote the Bible.

How do you decide what is a lie and what isn't?

By using high school and college level reasoning, and using the tools of literary criticism our teachers were supposed to teach us.

When Jesus said he was the door, he didn't literally mean he had hinges and a door knob.

If the most relevant stories of the Bible are made up, why should we believe God/divine Jesus are real?

Using the tools of literary criticism you were supposed to learn in high school and college, you should be able to reasonably ascertain what is parable, what is metaphor, what is hyperbole, what is poetry, what is historical narrative.

I didn't say the entire anything was evil and corrupt. What I'm saying is basically what you just said - the Bible is full of stories and characters, many of which are made up.

Even if true, it doesn't make God real. At one point, 90% or more of the US was Christian, which means Christians were beating 90% of the wives, committing 90% of the crime, beating 90% of the slaves etc.

Is that part of your Christian ethos?

No, it was not Christian. That is why the abolition movement was spearheaded by British Christians and Northern Christians.

Morality is what you ought to do. Humans very frequently do not do what they ought to do.

Hardly anyone on this board follows the golden rule, even though our conscience tells us we should. You can't be on this board for 20 minutes without getting insulted or cussed at.

I have no emotion regarding the Hebrew Bible, I just point out the homicidal, psychopath the Israelites/Jews worship.

The fact that you hate the Hebrew Bible does absolutely nothing to disprove or undermine the possibility that a mathematically rational and lawful universe was caused by an underlying rational agency.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Yes, a believe that there are no gods is pretty much the textbook definition of an atheist.

Not according to most of the atheists I have debated on the Internet. In fact, most deny that to be the case, which I expected you to do.

So...we are in agreement that theists/religionists "believe" (blindly guess) that at least one god exists...and that atheists "believe" (blindly guess) that no gods exist. We agree that there is no substantive, unambiguous evidence that gods exist and we agree that there is no substantive, unambiguous evidence that no gods exist.

 

[ZenMode]

Using the tools of literary criticism you were supposed to learn in high school and college, you should be able to reasonably ascertain what is parable, what is metaphor, what is hyperbole, what is poetry, what is historical narrative.

I don't see how that answers my question about God/divine Jesus (vs human Jesus).

The Bible claims, and Christians believe, that there is only one real god in the universe and all the rest are fictional, despite there being stories and writings about them. So, why should anyone believe, if the Bible is full of made up stories, that the God of those stories is any more real than Zeus, Aphrodite, etc?

And, again, you add the made up stories to the laundry list of other inconsistencies in the Bible and it all starts to sound more and more like fairytales.

 

[ZenMode]

Not according to most of the atheists I have debated on the Internet. In fact, most deny that to be the case, which I expected you to do.

So...we are in agreement that theists/religionists "believe" (blindly guess) that at least one god exists...and that atheists "believe" (blindly guess) that no gods exist. We agree that there is no substantive, unambiguous evidence that gods exist and we agree that there is no substantive, unambiguous evidence that no gods exist.

No, I don't believe it's a blind guess. I believe there is virtually no evidence for the existence of gods, specifically the ones man has written about, so NOT believing is the logical conclusion, not a blind guess. I also wouldn't say it's a "blind guess" to say unicorns don't exist, for much the same reason it's not a blind guess to say gods don't exist.

Those who believe in a god are the the ones much close to blind guessing, hence their "faith".

 

[Ross Dolan]

No, I don't believe it's a blind guess.

Okay, you often "believe" incorrectly. No big deal.

I believe there is virtually no evidence for the existence of gods, specifically the ones man has written about, so NOT believing is the logical conclusion, not a blind guess.

Believing there are no gods,,,IS a blind guess. I have absolutely no problem with you NOT "BELIEVING IN" any gods. As I have mentioned dozens of times to you...I DO NOT "BELIEVE IN" any gods either.

But you say you do "believe" there are no gods...and that is not a logical conclusion in any way. IT IS, instead, A BLIND GUESS despite your desperation to pretend otherwise.

I also wouldn't say it's a "blind guess" to say unicorns don't exist, for much the same reason it's not a blind guess to say gods don't exist.

Whatever. We are discussing whether gods exist or not. And the only reasonable answer is, "I DO NOT KNOW."

Any GUESS "Yes at least one does" or "No, none do" are blind guesses. Any guesses about the probability of either YES or NO...also is a blind guess.

Not sure why you are having so much trouble with that.

By the way, how do you know unicorns do not exist...or are you actually saying that unicorns (meaning an equine-like animal with a horn growing out of its forehead) do not exist on planet Earth? How do you know that they are not plentiful on a planet circling a star relatively close to us?

Those who believe in a god are the the ones much close to blind guessing, hence their "faith".

 

[Cypress]

I don't see how that answers my question about God/divine Jesus (vs human Jesus).

Rephrase the question, because I don't see it

The Bible claims, and Christians believe, that there is only one real god in the universe and all the rest are fictional, despite there being stories and writings about them. So, why should anyone believe, if the Bible is full of made up stories, that the God of those stories is any more real than Zeus, Aphrodite, etc?

You are confusing metaphor, parable, poetry, hyperbole with lies and fabrications.

Metaphor, poetry, allegory, parable are universally used by humans to articulate universal truths and profound insights.

This is what should have been taught by high school and college literature teachers.

And, again, you add the made up stories to the laundry list of other inconsistencies in the Bible and it all starts to sound more and more like fairytales.

None of your complaints about a few passages in the Hebrew Bible does anything to support atheism. And it definitely doesn't disprove, undermine, dismiss the possibility of a lawful and mathematically rational universe being caused by a rational agency.

 

[ZenMode]

Okay, you often "believe" incorrectly. No big deal.


Believing there are no gods,,,IS a blind guess. I have absolutely no problem with you NOT "BELIEVING IN" any gods. As I have mentioned dozens of times to you...I DO NOT "BELIEVE IN" any gods either.

But you say you do "believe" there are no gods...and that is not a logical conclusion in any way. IT IS, instead, A BLIND GUESS despite your desperation to pretend otherwise.


Whatever. We are discussing whether gods exist or not. And the only reasonable answer is, "I DO NOT KNOW."

Any GUESS "Yes at least one does" or "No, none do" are blind guesses. Any guesses about the probability of either YES or NO...also is a blind guess.

Not sure why you are having so much trouble with that.

By the way, how do you know unicorns do not exist...or are you actually saying that unicorns (meaning an equine-like animal with a horn growing out of its forehead) do not exist on planet Earth? How do you know that they are not plentiful on a planet circling a star relatively close to us?

I mentioned before that a lot of what we believe are things we have no first hand experience with. A water molecule is 2 parts Hydrogen and 1 part Oxygen. The earth is a sphere. We landed on the moon. Russia interfered in the 2016 election by among other things, hacking Hillary's emails. There was significant voter fraud in the 2020 election.

Of all the things you believe to be true, when you have no first hand knowledge of the topic, do you "believe" all of them at exactly the same level?

 

[Cypress]

You go on a date and have sex. The woman later feels it was not what she wanted. Rape? Maybe, maybe not.

Regret or disappointment after consenting is not rape.

In both American jurisprudence and in Christian ethics is illegal and sinful to falsely report a rape and bear false witness against another human.

 

[ZenMode]

Rephrase the question, because I don't see it

If the Bible is full of fictitious events and fictitious people, why believe that the god described in the Bible is real?

You are confusing metaphor, parable, poetry, hyperbole with lies and fabrications.

Metaphor, poetry, allegory, parable are universally used by humans to articulate universal truths and profound insights.

This is what should have been taught by high school and college literature teachers.

None of your complaints about a few passages in the Hebrew Bible does anything to support atheism. And it definitely doesn't disprove, undermine, dismiss the possibility of a lawful and mathematically rational universe being caused by a rational agency.

The Bible isn't a high school assignment. It's a book that a) many people believe is literally true, including what you write off as hyperbole or metaphor and b) believers use as the basis for structuring their lives.

If you are writing off the miraculous events in the Bible, which are the basis for God and divine Jesus, why believe there is a god?