The Kids are Doing Alright: The Culture War is Over

Part of the stability marriage creates is financial. It is probably far more important to the success of children than the emotional aspects. But emotionally, marriage can help to provide a child with fulfilled and happy parent(s). It is not good for kids to be around people who are suffering from depression and loneliness that a single mother sometimes endures, along with the economic struggles.

If they can find aid in a same sex spouse why should the state stand in the way of that or fail to extend the same encouragements to its stability? Why should we deny that to those children?
 
As I've asked many times before. How comes you can tell the presence of a right wing partisan by the smell of burning straw.

RS never said that, never drew or inferred that conclusion so your comment is a complete and dishonest misrepresentation of his statements, i.e. a strawman.

oh fuck....why is it liberals are never willing to deal honestly with the repercussions of what they believe?....somehow, they believe they can be sick fucks in a vacuum and it has no impact on society as whole..at least Stringfield is willing to acknowledge you're bringing about changes in the basic structure of society....
 
You pig headed dork. The analogy you put forth is sophmoric on its face and wouldn't stand any kind of intellectual test of honesty! Of course the zygote removed from the womb would die! That's the whole focus of the abortion debate. The POINT once again dorkpuss is that the would is inanimate the zygote animate. The wood left on the pallet will not build itself. The Zygote left alone in the womb will...why? Because it is alive and animate and set in a course for birth; infancy; child; adolecent; adult~~~

As to the infant? Yes it will cry. Yes someone may rescue it....but that was not the analogy. The analogy was "if left alone". This brings up an important secondary argument...infants and young children require care or they die too.

It is your stupid analogy. You are just defining "left alone" as being left in the aid of it's mother's womb, where her body is critical in directing its progress, movement and growth. While "left alone" for the lumber or infant means left without any other conscious force working to support it.

If the mother starts working on the wood instead of supporting the zygote it will grow into a house. Is it alive, in the human sense? Is it a house?
 
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It is your stupid analogy. You are just defining "left alone" as being left in the aid of it's mother's womb, where her body is critical in directing its progress, movement and growth. While "left alone" for the lumber or infant means left without any other conscious force working to support it.

If the mother starts working on the wood instead of supporting the zygote it will grow into a house. Is it alive?

lol.....next I suppose you will pretend a zygote isn't alive.....why do you hate science when it's reproductive biology?.....
 
It is your stupid analogy. You are just defining "left alone" as being left in the aid of it's mother's womb, where her body is critical in directing its progress, movement and growth. While "left alone" for the lumber or infant means left without any other conscious force working to support it.

If the mother starts working on the wood instead of supporting the zygote it will grow into a house. Is it alive, in the human sense? Is it a house?

You show us that your dorkpussness has no limit.

Yes, the zygote if left alone in the mothers womb (the place where zygotes live) will continue to live and grow (note it's alive and animate). The wood if left alone on the pallet will simply molder because it is not alive. Had it been left alive as a tree it would still continue to grow.

Houses are not alive in the human sense; they, houses, are inanimate.
 
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It is your stupid analogy. You are just defining "left alone" as being left in the aid of it's mother's womb, where her body is critical in directing its progress, movement and growth. While "left alone" for the lumber or infant means left without any other conscious force working to support it.

If the mother starts working on the wood instead of supporting the zygote it will grow into a house. Is it alive, in the human sense? Is it a house?

Her body doesn't DIRECT the growth of the fetus, that is done by the dna inside the living tiny human being inside the uterus. She's providing some things, oxygen, nutrients etc, but the growth is guided from within the living being, from how it's dna directs the cells to develop. LIfe is truly a wonder of science. You don't even seem to understand it properly. You don't understand how dna works. You think the mother decides how the arms grows. Why are you so "dark ages" about science? Is it because you love the wisdom of religion so much?
 
What we have here is one side that wants to protect the "life" of a piece of lumber and demand that it be built, by someone else, into a house and those and those concerned over the rights of a tree to marry arguing against HUMAN RIGHTS.

The conservative arguments are stupid and based on trying to control the terms without actually considering what they must mean. It's a house built upon a poor foundation or an argument starting on false premises. Being "left alone" is not analogous to being left in the care of the mother's womb. Maybe, to someone other than the mother it is. It is external to them, but "left alone" is not the reality of what actually happens anymore than it is a reality that homosexuals can't reproduce or somehow have less need for family.
 
What we have here is one side that wants to protect the "life" of a piece of lumber and demand that it be built, by someone else, into a house and those and those concerned over the rights of a tree to marry arguing against HUMAN RIGHTS.

The conservative arguments are stupid and based on trying to control the terms without actually considering what they must mean. It's a house built upon a poor foundation or an argument starting on false premises. Being "left alone" is not analogous to being left in the care of the mother's womb. Maybe, to someone other than the mother it is. It is external to them, but "left alone" is not the reality of what actually happens anymore than it is a reality that homosexuals can't reproduce or somehow have less need for family.

lol......you see, that's why analogies can get you in trouble.......you start thinking your parallel is accurate and you lose sight of what you're talking about.....we're talking about killing unborn children.......there is no way you can bend science to make it look like anything else than an unborn child, or anything else than killing it.....it's not "left alone".....it's "not killing".....it's not a zygote, or a piece of wood, or a house....it's an unborn child......
 
You show us that your dorkpussness has no limit.

Yes, the zygote if left alone in the mothers womb (the place where zygotes live) will continue to live and grow (note it's alive and animate). The wood if left alone on the pallet will simply molder because it is not alive. Had it been left alive as a tree it would still continue to grow.

Houses are not alive in the human sense; they, houses, are inanimate.

Okay, I misunderstood the source of the analogy. The alive part is not really relevant to the wood. And yes, a zygote is alive in a way that the lumber is not, but not in the way it's mother or an infant is.

But still, the lumber will become a house if the mother works on it. In the same way that her life and efforts are require before the zygote becomes alive in the human sense or imbued with rights.
 
And yes, a zygote is alive in a way that the lumber is not, but not in the way it's mother or an infant is.
But still, the lumber will become a house if the mother works on it. In the same way that her life and efforts are require before the zygote becomes alive in the human sense or imbued with rights.

actually, a mother and an infant and a zygote and an embryo and an unborn child and you are all alive in exactly the same way........science can demonstrate that to you.....
 
Okay, I misunderstood the source of the analogy. The alive part is not really relevant to the wood. And yes, a zygote is alive in a way that the lumber is not, but not in the way it's mother or an infant is.

But still, the lumber will become a house if the mother works on it. In the same way that her life and efforts are require before the zygote becomes alive in the human sense or imbued with rights.

The only difference between a zygote and its mother is its developmental stage...and THAT is scientific FACT.

The lumber can be built into a house but it will always and only be inanimate. The zygote if not killed will always be alive throughout its lifetime until it dies which happens to be approximately 70 years barring an untimely death.

Rights? The right to life is a guarantee of our Constitution. The zygote/fetus is as alive as it will ever be. It will grow and eventually be born and I understand that this is defining point of rights for people who think like you do. But the right to have your life protected should not be based on where you reside; the womb VS the crib. It should be based on your whole life. The contrariness of fetal life in our laws is perplexing and contradictory. If you are pregnant and do drugs or abuse alcohol you can be charged with child endangerment. If a pregnant woman is hit by a drunk driver and loses her unborn child charges of manslaughter can be brought against the drunk driver. Likewise if a pregnant woman is murdered the murderer can be charged with a double homicide. Why is this? It is all dependent on whether or not the woman chooses to keep this baby. If she has not it is referred to as a fetus or a zygote, or a clump of cells. It is a ludicrous and hypocritical society that allows a woman’s capriciousness (choice) determines whether the unborn child’s life has value. After ROE our nation decided that women can kill without prejudice…that’s absurd and barbaric!
 
What we have here is one side that wants to protect the "life" of a piece of lumber and demand that it be built, by someone else, into a house and those and those concerned over the rights of a tree to marry arguing against HUMAN RIGHTS.

The conservative arguments are stupid and based on trying to control the terms without actually considering what they must mean. It's a house built upon a poor foundation or an argument starting on false premises. Being "left alone" is not analogous to being left in the care of the mother's womb. Maybe, to someone other than the mother it is. It is external to them, but "left alone" is not the reality of what actually happens anymore than it is a reality that homosexuals can't reproduce or somehow have less need for family.

Yeah. Let's just stick with unborn baby. How about that?
 
What we have here is one side that wants to protect the "life" of a piece of lumber and demand that it be built, by someone else, into a house and those and those concerned over the rights of a tree to marry arguing against HUMAN RIGHTS.

The conservative arguments are stupid and based on trying to control the terms without actually considering what they must mean. It's a house built upon a poor foundation or an argument starting on false premises. Being "left alone" is not analogous to being left in the care of the mother's womb. Maybe, to someone other than the mother it is. It is external to them, but "left alone" is not the reality of what actually happens anymore than it is a reality that homosexuals can't reproduce or somehow have less need for family.

Your first sentence is wrong. What we have is human being that if left alone will build its self. The lumber if left alone will not.

It is the leftist minded persons who have to do verbal gymnastics to make their points. The real point is this: Protect the human life at every stage and be consistent with the Constitutional protections of life; or be inconsistent and create numerous capricious laws in order to protect killing unwanted babies/fetuses in the womb and reserving the right to prosecute others who kill babies/fetuses in the womb.
 
The Libertarian Case Against Abortion

The Libertarian Case Against Abortion
by Bill Barnwell



Is holding a pro-life position inherently inconsistent with libertarian philosophy? Many libertarians seem to think so. Abortion, according to them, is forced and legislated morality defended by big-government conservatives who want to impose their faith and morals on the rest of an unwilling society. Not only that, it is statist in that it invalidates a mother’s right to terminate a pregnancy. The State now trumps parental rights and decides for the mother against her will that she must bring a child into the world.

Is this, however, the full story? I argue that it is absolutely not. Rather than being a liberating, pro-freedom expression of personal choice against government intrusion, the "right" to abortion is itself a statist measure completely consistent with left-wing ideology of how society and government should function. It does nothing to advance the cause of freedom. It instead drastically sets the principles of freedom and personal responsibility light-years back. Therefore, the pro-life position is not only completely consistent with libertarian philosophy, but it is much more consistently libertarian than the alternative position outlined above.

Two basic pillars of libertarianism are personal freedom and an aversion to aggression. Libertarians rightly do not believe that people should be compelled to make decisions by the government. Even Christian libertarians, such as myself, who are morally opposed to activities such as smoking, drunkenness and homosexual behavior, still realize that it is not the proper role of the State to try to dictate to adults whether or not they should smoke. Nor does it make much sense for the State to patrol people’s bedrooms to make sure they aren’t engaging in sodomy. While many people view such habits as destructive, they can also look at the empirical evidence from history and realize that the State has a very bad track record trying to intervene in such matters (Prohibition, anyone?).

On aggression, libertarians have long been champions against governmental coercion and unprovoked harm. Libertarians oppose unprovoked, immoral military aggression against foreign countries that are hardly waged in the name of defense. Likewise, libertarians oppose personal aggression that threatens ones life or property. Not only that, but governmental aggression against an individual’s pursuit of economic liberty is denounced rightly as aggression. This principle of non-aggression is innately tied to the concept of personal freedom and liberty. No outside governmental force has the right to compel or coerce another person’s personal behavior through the force of the State. Also, the State is immorally engaging in aggression when it sanctions murder or other forms of personal harm against its own or even foreign inhabitants for non-defensive reasons.

The previous two paragraphs outlining the principles of personal freedom and non-aggression seem, at first, to validate and support the pro-abortion position as described in the beginning of this essay. Yet when one looks at the total picture they will see that they do not. The government sanctioning of abortion is itself an attack on personal liberty and likewise runs completely contrary to the principle of non-aggression.

Since much material has been written debating when life begins, it would be foolish to spend ample time on the subject in this space. I will only say that those who argue that the developing fetus is not in any sense human have much scientific evidence against them. It is well documented that there is a beating heart after 18 days of fertilization and that the formation of brain waves occurs after a mere month and a half (keep in mind also that most abortions occur well after these developments). A recent column in the Telegraph documents the uneasiness of many pro-abortion Britons who are aware of the personhood of unborn children:

"New ultrasound pictures of a foetus show it toddling at 12 weeks, yawning at 15 and smiling at 18. What is the public reaction? Are we awestruck at this manifestation of the quickening within the womb that every mother feels?

"Do we recognise ourselves, our children and our children's children in what is visibly a tiny human being? No, people are more likely to reflect uneasily on the fact that tens of thousands of foetuses just like this are legally aborted before they are born. After more than a generation of abortion on demand, Britain has an ageing population and a queasy conscience."

Far from being just a simple "blob of flesh" or lifeless attachment inside a mother, more and more abortion supporters are beginning to come to terms with the inherent personhood of the developing fetus. Trying to set a precise time for the beginning of life neglects much of the scientific evidence that points to all the necessary ingredients being present in the very beginning of pregnancy. The commonly accepted notion of determining the status of life, or potential of life based upon how closely a fetus resembles a fully developed human (or using the most extreme argument of abortionists, that is, that life truly begins once the baby has totally exited the mother’s body during birth) is irresponsible. Far from being just a blob of flesh, or simple life form that is analogous to bacteria or growing fruit, a more responsible philosophical and moral position is to view that which is inside the womb for what it is: a developing human being.

Considering that, State sanctioning of abortion is nothing more than a trade-off of rights. Remember, in the opening of this essay, abortion was presented as a path to liberation and personal responsibility for the mother. Neither the State, nor any other human being (especially men) has a right to tell the mother what to do with her own body. Sounds good, doesn’t it? Not quite.

Such a position conveniently ignores the fact that within the mother is an entity that is completely distinct from her (The argument that abortion is legitimate since the child is dependant upon the mother for survival need not be limited to the womb, it can easily be extended towards born infants and even the disabled and elderly). Thus, there is a tradeoff of freedoms and rights. The mother gains special privileges and rights while at the same time the child loses them. One party gains at the expense of the other. This arrangement is no different from various other left-wing and statist inventions that harm some for the benefit of others.

It does one well to wonder how exactly this arrangement is libertarian and pro-freedom. Granting the state-approved right for mothers to terminate a pregnancy also ignores the rights and interests of other parties involved in the matter. First, it regulates the man's decision in the matter next to nothing (even though admittedly many of the men who impregnate these women are nothing more than "sperm donors" if you will, but that is not always the case). Secondly, it totally invalidates the life of the growing child amongst more and more evidence that what is in the womb is indeed a life. But since Junior was conceived at a bad time, he has no rights. Not exactly a very libertarian concept.

What about personal liberty, responsibility, and freedom? Again, it has been shown that those who defend abortion on grounds of freedom and personal liberty only tell half of the story. They have no problem with denying the right to life, liberty, and freedom to the unborn child (based not on biological science, philosophy, or moral reasoning mind you, but usually political or sociological arguments).

Secondly, the abortion debate could use more common sense on the issue of responsibility. According to a 1998 study in Family Planning Perspectives, 93% of abortions are obtained not for medical reasons, but social reasons (such as not feeling ready to have a child, not having adequate finances, etc). Concerns for the mother’s health accounted for only 3% of abortions (and plenty of modern physicians say that medicine and health care is technologically advanced to the point where this really is no longer a concern). Another 3% claimed that they were concerned for the health of the child (But yes, disabled children or children found to have defects have a right to be born also). And the percentage of abortions that occur because of rape or incest (the supposed trump card in the pro-abortion debate)? Just 1%.

It’s about time that defenders of freedom and personal responsibility put more pressure on promiscuous or sexually irresponsible people to take proper measures to avoid a pregnancy. It is morally and intellectually unfair to make unwanted children bear the burden for the irresponsible actions of others. While libertarians would rightly say that the State has no business trying to correct the poor attitudes and behaviors of others, it also makes little sense for the State to sanction aggressive and anti-life laws which punish innocents for the mistakes of their parents. That is not libertarian; it is selective freedom which pushes aggression on defenseless unborn children.

This leads us to one final consideration in this essay; that abortion violates the principle of nonaggression. The mother (or parents), usually as a result of her (or their) own irresponsibility, makes a decision to end a life unilaterally. The child obviously has no say in the matter. The pro-abortion parents and the State make the decision for child, and prematurely end his or her life. Again, not a very libertarian concept.

Abortion supporters object. The government is telling a woman what to do with her body! I'm encouraged when left-leaning thinkers start talking like libertarians, but discouraged to see that it stops at giving mothers the "right of privacy" to get abortions. Back in his quasi pro-life days, Al Gore once said "abortion is arguably the taking of a human life." If those who argue that it is the taking of a human life are correct, then I think even the staunchest libertarian can agree that the state should not be in the business of sanctioning aggression and destructive anti-life policies. Unfortunately, the State seems mainly concerned with economic stagnation and the destruction of life and property through war, abortion, anti-capitalistic measures, etc. Abortion is another piece of that puzzle.

It must also be recognized that the process in which abortion became the law of the land was nothing short of statist aggression. The State, through the judicially abominable decision of Roe v. Wade, federalized the matter through convoluted constitutional reasoning. This was a pristine example of political and judicial aggression that denied the rights of individual states to decide the matter by federalizing it. All honest libertarians should see this as an assault on states’ rights regardless of their position on the moral, legal, or philosophical merits of the actual abortion itself.

Notice in this libertarian attack on abortion I have not sought to endorse all pro-life legislation that has been considered over the years. That is because some of the legislation has approached the matter in a big-government or statist approach and actually negates itself because of it. Yet all libertarians should agree that Roe v. Wade is a blow to libertarian philosophy, and the issue should be returned to the states. In the meantime, individual states, and personal consciences would do well to consider the real nature of abortion: an aggressive, irresponsible act which denies personal freedom, liberty and justice to a weaker and inconvenient class of people.

As a libertarian, I defend the pro-life cause not only on moral and spiritual grounds, but also philosophically on the nonaggression principle and upon the principles of freedom and personal liberty. As has been shown, a government that sanctions abortion sanctions aggression, and gives rights and privileges to some (mothers) while taking away rights and harming others (the unwanted children). This tradeoff of rights and State-sponsored aggression is not libertarian, as most "mainstream" libertarians would assume. It is the standard statist model of how society and government should function which is ultimately unfair, immoral and destructive.

Such a concept has much more in common with the philosophy of the Left than it does with the philosophy of freedom. And there’s nothing libertarian about that.
 
lol......you see, that's why analogies can get you in trouble.......you start thinking your parallel is accurate and you lose sight of what you're talking about.....we're talking about killing unborn children.......there is no way you can bend science to make it look like anything else than an unborn child, or anything else than killing it.....it's not "left alone".....it's "not killing".....it's not a zygote, or a piece of wood, or a house....it's an unborn child......

It is not a child and science shows that it looks nothing like one.

Science says requiring a mother to carry it to term against her will is not "leaving it alone." Science says it does not have a brain. Science shows that our brain is what separates us from the other animals. From there social sciences show us that it is the brain that gives us the need for legal rights.

Social conservatives think there is a soul or something present in the zygote at fertilization, which is nothing but nonsense. This is the basis of their concept of rights.

It's not God that gives us our nature, but nature. There is no fucking soul to be found. But we can see that our brain sets us apart. Until there is a brain there are no rights and it is silly to pretend otherwise.
 
Your first sentence is wrong. What we have is human being that if left alone will build its self. The lumber if left alone will not.

It cannot build itself. That is horse shit.

It is the leftist minded persons who have to do verbal gymnastics to make their points. The real point is this: Protect the human life at every stage and be consistent with the Constitutional protections of life; or be inconsistent and create numerous capricious laws in order to protect killing unwanted babies/fetuses in the womb and reserving the right to prosecute others who kill babies/fetuses in the womb.

The constitutional protection of life starts at birth. It's quite clear.

A fertilized egg is not a human baby. There is no death or reason to mourn if it fails to implant. Nobody gathers around the tampon basket and sheds tears over the loss of such life. It's stupid to pretend we should or that a woman cannot stop the process that will create a baby at that point.

The law is perfectly capable of handling the nuances. Your stupid theories, that God creates a soul at fertilization and therefore a being worthy of rights is created, is not capable of handling the nuances. Otherwise, you'd be wearing black and spending every waking moment going to some poor "babies" funeral.
 
It is not a child and science shows that it looks nothing like one.

oh, my mistake....you can legally abort this one for four more months...

fig03face5mos.jpg


http://regiaecclesia.wordpress.com/2008/03/20/the-modern-holocaust/
 
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Science says it does not have a brain. Science shows that our brain is what separates us from the other animals. From there social sciences show us that it is the brain that gives us the need for legal rights.

???...except that science actually tells us that the unborn child has a brain before most women realize they are even pregnant....

http://brainmind.com/FetalBrainDevelopment.html

now, you can legitimately argue that said brain has not reached it's full potential, yet the same can be said of a one day old child......thus, arguing one needs a brain that has reached it's full potential before obtaining legal rights is obviously arbitrary......and, laws which deprive us of our legal rights which are arbitrary are SUPPOSED to be rejected as unconstitutional............

The law is perfectly capable of handling the nuances. Your stupid theories, that God creates a soul at fertilization and therefore a being worthy of rights is created, is not capable of handling the nuances.

no, what currently grants a human being rights in the US isn't the presence of a brain....it's the snipping of the umbilical cord.....and, since that can be withheld arbitrarily by a doctor plunging the knife into the brain instead of the umbilical cord, it is also obviously unconstitutional.....omigorsh, did I just raise an argument against abortion that used the law and not religion?.....I bet that confuses the crap out of you, doesn't it?.........
 
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It cannot build itself. That is horse shit.

The constitutional protection of life starts at birth. It's quite clear.

A fertilized egg is not a human baby. There is no death or reason to mourn if it fails to implant. Nobody gathers around the tampon basket and sheds tears over the loss of such life. It's stupid to pretend we should or that a woman cannot stop the process that will create a baby at that point.

The law is perfectly capable of handling the nuances. Your stupid theories, that God creates a soul at fertilization and therefore a being worthy of rights is created, is not capable of handling the nuances. Otherwise, you'd be wearing black and spending every waking moment going to some poor "babies" funeral.


If left alone in the womb the baby builds its self...fact not horseshit. This in fact is what the human body does throughout its maturing stages.

The Constitutional protection of life states no developemental stage with which it is constrained.

The medical abortion issue has not arisen due to natural abortion...a strawman argument.

The fact that so many laws have had to be made concerning, not nuances, but legal seperations of the same subject, the unborn baby, proves that the laws are in fact intrusive and capricious and not definite and factual concerning personhood of the fetus.

Again natural abortion is not in question...numerous parents do grieve over their lost babies due to natural means. The point in question you dishonest hack, is the legal and ethical practice of infanticide by the state... the purposed killing of the unborn through human means.
 
Fuck you asshole. I grew up fine. My father died when I was three. My mother had no option in it. She just did the best she could. But I saw your Leave it to Beaver fantasy, where some drunk fuck beat his wife, berated his sons or touched his daughters, for the truth of what it was and often felt that at least I only had a mother that loved me and did her best.

You may have been some little naive puke where in your mind it was all picket fences and all the rest, but that was never reality. You grew up dumb, not normal.

Yes; this kind of unhinged fruitloop is the future of America. God save us all. :palm:
 
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