The Kids are Doing Alright: The Culture War is Over

It cannot build itself. That is horse shit.



The constitutional protection of life starts at birth. It's quite clear.

A fertilized egg is not a human baby. There is no death or reason to mourn if it fails to implant. Nobody gathers around the tampon basket and sheds tears over the loss of such life. It's stupid to pretend we should or that a woman cannot stop the process that will create a baby at that point.

The law is perfectly capable of handling the nuances. Your stupid theories, that God creates a soul at fertilization and therefore a being worthy of rights is created, is not capable of handling the nuances. Otherwise, you'd be wearing black and spending every waking moment going to some poor "babies" funeral.

Why do you insist on the dehumanization of in utero children?

Why do want to hide how reproduction works, and how human growth progresses.

Where does life begin?

WHen did it end?
At no point is the fetus ,non living, non human, or non being, ergo, it's a living human being. Never is it not.
 
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lol......you see, that's why analogies can get you in trouble.......you start thinking your parallel is accurate and you lose sight of what you're talking about.....we're talking about killing unborn children.......there is no way you can bend science to make it look like anything else than an unborn child, or anything else than killing it.....it's not "left alone".....it's "not killing".....it's not a zygote, or a piece of wood, or a house....it's an unborn child......

It's not an unborn child. That term is as silly as saying a living human being is an undead corpse. There is no such thing. The term "corpse" presupposes a death just as "child" presupposes a birth.
 
The only difference between a zygote and its mother is its developmental stage...and THAT is scientific FACT.

The lumber can be built into a house but it will always and only be inanimate. The zygote if not killed will always be alive throughout its lifetime until it dies which happens to be approximately 70 years barring an untimely death.

Rights? The right to life is a guarantee of our Constitution. The zygote/fetus is as alive as it will ever be. It will grow and eventually be born and I understand that this is defining point of rights for people who think like you do. But the right to have your life protected should not be based on where you reside; the womb VS the crib. It should be based on your whole life. The contrariness of fetal life in our laws is perplexing and contradictory. If you are pregnant and do drugs or abuse alcohol you can be charged with child endangerment. If a pregnant woman is hit by a drunk driver and loses her unborn child charges of manslaughter can be brought against the drunk driver. Likewise if a pregnant woman is murdered the murderer can be charged with a double homicide. Why is this? It is all dependent on whether or not the woman chooses to keep this baby. If she has not it is referred to as a fetus or a zygote, or a clump of cells. It is a ludicrous and hypocritical society that allows a woman’s capriciousness (choice) determines whether the unborn child’s life has value. After ROE our nation decided that women can kill without prejudice…that’s absurd and barbaric!

Yes, it is absurd but we all know why. They take the worse cases, a pregnant woman being murdered or the case of a drunk driver, and use the argument two people died so as to increase the punishment of the perpetrator.

As for "The only difference between a zygote and its mother is its developmental stage", of course it is. That's because we live in a world governed by time.

There are children in kindergarten, today, who will become doctors but there are no doctors in kindergarten today. Even though the same child that is here, today, will one day be a doctor that does not mean they are doctor now.
 
If left alone in the womb the baby builds its self...fact not horseshit. This in fact is what the human body does throughout its maturing stages.

Your definition of "left alone" is bullshit. The level of care the mother provides is extreme and more intensive than that of what our best science is capable.

It's nothing to you, I understand. But that's not reality. It is not "left alone."

The Constitutional protection of life states no developemental stage with which it is constrained.

Sure it does.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The medical abortion issue has not arisen due to natural abortion...a strawman argument.

I did not indicate it did. Yours is the straw man. The point is that we don't treat that like life. The only time you want it treated as life is if the mother chooses to abort. If it is not a death when it happens "spontaneously" then it can not be murder when the mother choose to abort.

The fact that so many laws have had to be made concerning, not nuances, but legal seperations of the same subject, the unborn baby, proves that the laws are in fact intrusive and capricious and not definite and factual concerning personhood of the fetus.

Who says? That is just a non sequitur for which you give no support. There are different levels of murder too.

Again natural abortion is not in question...numerous parents do grieve over their lost babies due to natural means. The point in question you dishonest hack, is the legal and ethical practice of infanticide by the state... the purposed killing of the unborn through human means.

Not at fertilization, they do not. What's the important question asked and probably the source of the level of suffering? Did it feel pain. Guess when that becomes possible?

I am sure that a hopeful mother might mourn sooner. Especially if she were having difficulties conceiving. But that it is partly due to the selfish loss they feel, or they would not keep trying. And what about them? Anyone who saw a woman having babies that lived two weeks past birth and dying, would probably say she should stop trying. I am sure the doctors would and would offer her no aide.encouragement in doing it again. Why because that is a real death. But a fertilized egg that does not stick, nobody cares and for good reason. It's not a human life.
 
Your definition of "left alone" is bullshit. The level of care the mother provides is extreme and more intensive than that of what our best science is capable.

It's nothing to you, I understand. But that's not reality. It is not "left alone."



Sure it does.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.



I did not indicate it did. Yours is the straw man. The point is that we don't treat that like life. The only time you want it treated as life is if the mother chooses to abort. If it is not a death when it happens "spontaneously" then it can not be murder when the mother choose to abort.



Who says? That is just a non sequitur for which you give no support. There are different levels of murder too.



Not at fertilization, they do not. What's the important question asked and probably the source of the level of suffering? Did it feel pain. Guess when that becomes possible?

I am sure that a hopeful mother might mourn sooner. Especially if she were having difficulties conceiving. But that it is partly due to the selfish loss they feel, or they would not keep trying. And what about them? Anyone who saw a woman having babies that lived two weeks past birth and dying, would probably say she should stop trying. I am sure the doctors would and would offer her no aide.encouragement in doing it again. Why because that is a real death. But a fertilized egg that does not stick, nobody cares and for good reason. It's not a human life.

But a piece of wood left in the mothers uterus would not continue developing on a path towards larger and more developed humanity.

Your basic analogy is moronic. And you write reams of bullshit denying your own absurdity.

Just like you think "gaggle of dogs" is perfectly normal, you're also moronic in this instance.
 
But a piece of wood left in the mothers uterus would not continue developing on a path towards larger and more developed humanity.

Your basic analogy is moronic. And you write reams of bullshit denying your own absurdity.

Just like you think "gaggle of dogs" is perfectly normal, you're also moronic in this instance.

The reams are necessary because you guys are severely ignorant and it's a highly complicated matter which has occupied philosophers for 1000s of years.

The social conservatives are ignorant because there approach to answering the questions of life is a mental shortcut, that allows them to ignore it. God takes care of it all.

You ignore it, because of another mental shortcut, where you blame the Jews for all ills. It's made very clear by you. You are focused on how the Jews are using this issue to create state baby factories or whatever.

It is like to trying to educate a child. You have to start with basics and build up. You might miss a step and have to go back as well.

I mean, you still don't understand a simple thing like the definition of "gaggle" and other words which mean group. Ditzy, still does not understand what 1/3 is and that one is several years old.

I am supposed to explain to you the nature of rights and humanity in just a few sentences. You want get it with a trillion. You are far too stupid. But some will get it.
 
Your definition of "left alone" is bullshit. The level of care the mother provides is extreme and more intensive than that of what our best science is capable.

It's nothing to you, I understand. But that's not reality. It is not "left alone."

Sure it does.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

I did not indicate it did. Yours is the straw man. The point is that we don't treat that like life. The only time you want it treated as life is if the mother chooses to abort. If it is not a death when it happens "spontaneously" then it can not be murder when the mother choose to abort.

Who says? That is just a non sequitur for which you give no support. There are different levels of murder too.

Not at fertilization, they do not. What's the important question asked and probably the source of the level of suffering? Did it feel pain. Guess when that becomes possible?

I am sure that a hopeful mother might mourn sooner. Especially if she were having difficulties conceiving. But that it is partly due to the selfish loss they feel, or they would not keep trying. And what about them? Anyone who saw a woman having babies that lived two weeks past birth and dying, would probably say she should stop trying. I am sure the doctors would and would offer her no aide.encouragement in doing it again. Why because that is a real death. But a fertilized egg that does not stick, nobody cares and for good reason. It's not a human life.


It is not bullshit or horseshit it is scientific fact that the in utero baby develops its self. I never said that the mothers natural self nurture do not contribute to this developmental process...but that is all it does. The "mother" (love that you acknowledge she is a "mother) if doing no more and no less than she would to sustain her own life, merely provides an environment for the self evolving development that will continue until adult maturity if unhampered. You are a dork to suppose otherwise.

It is left alone as with the "idea" of not touching it or interfering with it. The analogy was that a zygote was somehow equal to a pile of lumber…it is not for the very reasons I have argued...you fail.


"In the 1989 case of Webster v. Reproductive Health Services (492 U.S. 490), the U.S. Supreme Court refused to invalidate a Missouri statute (Mo. Rev. Stat. 1.205.1) that declares that "the life of each human being begins at conception," that "unborn children have protectable interests in life, health, and well-being," and that all state laws "shall be interpreted and construed to acknowledge on behalf of the unborn child at every stage of development, all the rights, privileges, and immunities available to other persons, citizens, and residents of this state," to the extent permitted by the Constitution and U.S. Supreme Court rulings. A lower court had held that Missouri's law "impermissible[y]" adopted "a theory of when life begins," but the Supreme Court nullified this ruling, and held that a state is free to enact laws that recognize unborn children, so long as the state does not include restrictions on abortion that Roe forbids.

In State v. Knapp, 843 S.W. 2nd (Mo. en banc) (1992), the Missouri Supreme Court held that the definition of "person" in this law is applicable to other statutes, including at least the state's involuntary manslaughter statute.'


The entire offerings of analogies, of natural VS medical abortion as any kind of foothold to argue against protecting life, is a straw man and absurd to the argument...and you most certainly attempted to associate them in such a way. Abortion is a premeditated action and as such it begs the question of value to the life being aborted...spontaneous abortion begs no such question! More dorpussness in evidence by you.

The very fact that the law is capricious is not my opinion it is unfortunately fact. The problem is not the degree of murder charges it is the contradictory nature of such laws that on the one hand can claim the unborn is a person who is owed protection and on the other hand be a non person not owed any...

You have never made a good legal or scientific argument for abortion. You lack intellectual honesty and depend instead on lazy and tired arguments that lost steam nearly 20 years ago. Science has won the ethical argument against premeditated medical abortions...we are just waiting for the barbarians to be legally put in their places...and I have no doubt they will be.

It is not selfish to feel loss when a woman miscarries...you are so fucked up
in your thinking.
 
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The reams are necessary because you guys are severely ignorant and it's a highly complicated matter which has occupied philosophers for 1000s of years.

The social conservatives are ignorant because there approach to answering the questions of life is a mental shortcut, that allows them to ignore it. God takes care of it all.

You ignore it, because of another mental shortcut, where you blame the Jews for all ills. It's made very clear by you. You are focused on how the Jews are using this issue to create state baby factories or whatever.

It is like to trying to educate a child. You have to start with basics and build up. You might miss a step and have to go back as well.

I mean, you still don't understand a simple thing like the definition of "gaggle" and other words which mean group. Ditzy, still does not understand what 1/3 is and that one is several years old.

I am supposed to explain to you the nature of rights and humanity in just a few sentences. You want get it with a trillion. You are far too stupid. But some will get it.



It's science that life begins at conception, not religion. Your attempt to obscure reproductive reality is your own "dark ages" knowledge suppression. Your reams of nonsensical mental waste are just a smokescreen for you to hide baby killing.

It's not jews who want to create babies in statist citizen factors, It's elitist internationalist fascist social engineering nihilists in general.

Gaggle only refers to groups of specific things. It's not a synonym for group. This is just more of your reductivist attitude toward language to erase thoughts.
 
The Libertarian Case Against Abortion
by Bill Barnwell

Such a position conveniently ignores the fact that within the mother is an entity that is completely distinct from her (The argument that abortion is legitimate since the child is dependant upon the mother for survival need not be limited to the womb, it can easily be extended towards born infants and even the disabled and elderly).

Let’s look at the elderly. Is a 40-year-old woman obliged to look after her ill father when she remembers growing up with a drunk who was a little too friendly at bedtime? Or maybe he was a saint. In either case should she be forced to look after him and, if so, what is his life going to be like?

Society realized families were not supportive of the elderly, thus, pensions and homes were supplied.

Secondly, it totally invalidates the life of the growing child amongst more and more evidence that what is in the womb is indeed a life. But since Junior was conceived at a bad time, he has no rights……..

It’s about time that defenders of freedom and personal responsibility put more pressure on promiscuous or sexually irresponsible people to take proper measures to avoid a pregnancy. It is morally and intellectually unfair to make unwanted children bear the burden for the irresponsible actions of others.

Absolutely! It is morally and intellectually unfair to make unwanted children bear the burden for the irresponsible actions of others. No child asked to be born into a shit-hole (pardon the language).

Growing up listening to mommy moan and groan in the bedroom when the neighbour visits for the night or hearing their mother and father curse at each other knowing they’ll be tripping over beer bottles in the morning before going to school.

Having tooth aches and there’s no money for a dentist. Having other kids taunt them because of the old clothes they wear.

So, finally, they realize it’s a “Libertarian” world. You know, “take responsibility”, “you’re on your own, pal”. So, they take responsibility because they know no one will help them. If they need money they steal. Sell drugs. They do what they have to do. They are responsible for themselves.

The rest is documented history. Drop out of school. Poverty or prison. Yes, it definitely is morally and intellectually unfair to make unwanted children bear the burden for the irresponsible actions of others. It is also indefensible and repugnant, not to mention ludicrous and absurd, to claim one is protecting them when the reality is they are insisting a child be born into a shit-hole and when it comes to science perhaps they should read how abuse and neglect leaves a lifetime scar. Even withholding normal affection/attention from a baby has adverse effects.

Can one possibly be more misguided when denying abortion means condemning a child to such an existence in the name of protecting it, in the name of morals?



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

The Libertarian Case Against Abortion
by Bill Barnwell



Is holding a pro-life position inherently inconsistent with libertarian philosophy? Many libertarians seem to think so. Abortion, according to them, is forced and legislated morality defended by big-government conservatives who want to impose their faith and morals on the rest of an unwilling society. Not only that, it is statist in that it invalidates a mother’s right to terminate a pregnancy. The State now trumps parental rights and decides for the mother against her will that she must bring a child into the world.

Is this, however, the full story? I argue that it is absolutely not. Rather than being a liberating, pro-freedom expression of personal choice against government intrusion, the "right" to abortion is itself a statist measure completely consistent with left-wing ideology of how society and government should function. It does nothing to advance the cause of freedom. It instead drastically sets the principles of freedom and personal responsibility light-years back. Therefore, the pro-life position is not only completely consistent with libertarian philosophy, but it is much more consistently libertarian than the alternative position outlined above.

Two basic pillars of libertarianism are personal freedom and an aversion to aggression. Libertarians rightly do not believe that people should be compelled to make decisions by the government. Even Christian libertarians, such as myself, who are morally opposed to activities such as smoking, drunkenness and homosexual behavior, still realize that it is not the proper role of the State to try to dictate to adults whether or not they should smoke. Nor does it make much sense for the State to patrol people’s bedrooms to make sure they aren’t engaging in sodomy. While many people view such habits as destructive, they can also look at the empirical evidence from history and realize that the State has a very bad track record trying to intervene in such matters (Prohibition, anyone?).

On aggression, libertarians have long been champions against governmental coercion and unprovoked harm. Libertarians oppose unprovoked, immoral military aggression against foreign countries that are hardly waged in the name of defense. Likewise, libertarians oppose personal aggression that threatens ones life or property. Not only that, but governmental aggression against an individual’s pursuit of economic liberty is denounced rightly as aggression. This principle of non-aggression is innately tied to the concept of personal freedom and liberty. No outside governmental force has the right to compel or coerce another person’s personal behavior through the force of the State. Also, the State is immorally engaging in aggression when it sanctions murder or other forms of personal harm against its own or even foreign inhabitants for non-defensive reasons.

The previous two paragraphs outlining the principles of personal freedom and non-aggression seem, at first, to validate and support the pro-abortion position as described in the beginning of this essay. Yet when one looks at the total picture they will see that they do not. The government sanctioning of abortion is itself an attack on personal liberty and likewise runs completely contrary to the principle of non-aggression.

Since much material has been written debating when life begins, it would be foolish to spend ample time on the subject in this space. I will only say that those who argue that the developing fetus is not in any sense human have much scientific evidence against them. It is well documented that there is a beating heart after 18 days of fertilization and that the formation of brain waves occurs after a mere month and a half (keep in mind also that most abortions occur well after these developments). A recent column in the Telegraph documents the uneasiness of many pro-abortion Britons who are aware of the personhood of unborn children:

"New ultrasound pictures of a foetus show it toddling at 12 weeks, yawning at 15 and smiling at 18. What is the public reaction? Are we awestruck at this manifestation of the quickening within the womb that every mother feels?

"Do we recognise ourselves, our children and our children's children in what is visibly a tiny human being? No, people are more likely to reflect uneasily on the fact that tens of thousands of foetuses just like this are legally aborted before they are born. After more than a generation of abortion on demand, Britain has an ageing population and a queasy conscience."

Far from being just a simple "blob of flesh" or lifeless attachment inside a mother, more and more abortion supporters are beginning to come to terms with the inherent personhood of the developing fetus. Trying to set a precise time for the beginning of life neglects much of the scientific evidence that points to all the necessary ingredients being present in the very beginning of pregnancy. The commonly accepted notion of determining the status of life, or potential of life based upon how closely a fetus resembles a fully developed human (or using the most extreme argument of abortionists, that is, that life truly begins once the baby has totally exited the mother’s body during birth) is irresponsible. Far from being just a blob of flesh, or simple life form that is analogous to bacteria or growing fruit, a more responsible philosophical and moral position is to view that which is inside the womb for what it is: a developing human being.

Considering that, State sanctioning of abortion is nothing more than a trade-off of rights. Remember, in the opening of this essay, abortion was presented as a path to liberation and personal responsibility for the mother. Neither the State, nor any other human being (especially men) has a right to tell the mother what to do with her own body. Sounds good, doesn’t it? Not quite.

Such a position conveniently ignores the fact that within the mother is an entity that is completely distinct from her (The argument that abortion is legitimate since the child is dependant upon the mother for survival need not be limited to the womb, it can easily be extended towards born infants and even the disabled and elderly). Thus, there is a tradeoff of freedoms and rights. The mother gains special privileges and rights while at the same time the child loses them. One party gains at the expense of the other. This arrangement is no different from various other left-wing and statist inventions that harm some for the benefit of others.

It does one well to wonder how exactly this arrangement is libertarian and pro-freedom. Granting the state-approved right for mothers to terminate a pregnancy also ignores the rights and interests of other parties involved in the matter. First, it regulates the man's decision in the matter next to nothing (even though admittedly many of the men who impregnate these women are nothing more than "sperm donors" if you will, but that is not always the case). Secondly, it totally invalidates the life of the growing child amongst more and more evidence that what is in the womb is indeed a life. But since Junior was conceived at a bad time, he has no rights. Not exactly a very libertarian concept.

What about personal liberty, responsibility, and freedom? Again, it has been shown that those who defend abortion on grounds of freedom and personal liberty only tell half of the story. They have no problem with denying the right to life, liberty, and freedom to the unborn child (based not on biological science, philosophy, or moral reasoning mind you, but usually political or sociological arguments).

Secondly, the abortion debate could use more common sense on the issue of responsibility. According to a 1998 study in Family Planning Perspectives, 93% of abortions are obtained not for medical reasons, but social reasons (such as not feeling ready to have a child, not having adequate finances, etc). Concerns for the mother’s health accounted for only 3% of abortions (and plenty of modern physicians say that medicine and health care is technologically advanced to the point where this really is no longer a concern). Another 3% claimed that they were concerned for the health of the child (But yes, disabled children or children found to have defects have a right to be born also). And the percentage of abortions that occur because of rape or incest (the supposed trump card in the pro-abortion debate)? Just 1%.

It’s about time that defenders of freedom and personal responsibility put more pressure on promiscuous or sexually irresponsible people to take proper measures to avoid a pregnancy. It is morally and intellectually unfair to make unwanted children bear the burden for the irresponsible actions of others. While libertarians would rightly say that the State has no business trying to correct the poor attitudes and behaviors of others, it also makes little sense for the State to sanction aggressive and anti-life laws which punish innocents for the mistakes of their parents. That is not libertarian; it is selective freedom which pushes aggression on defenseless unborn children.

This leads us to one final consideration in this essay; that abortion violates the principle of nonaggression. The mother (or parents), usually as a result of her (or their) own irresponsibility, makes a decision to end a life unilaterally. The child obviously has no say in the matter. The pro-abortion parents and the State make the decision for child, and prematurely end his or her life. Again, not a very libertarian concept.

Abortion supporters object. The government is telling a woman what to do with her body! I'm encouraged when left-leaning thinkers start talking like libertarians, but discouraged to see that it stops at giving mothers the "right of privacy" to get abortions. Back in his quasi pro-life days, Al Gore once said "abortion is arguably the taking of a human life." If those who argue that it is the taking of a human life are correct, then I think even the staunchest libertarian can agree that the state should not be in the business of sanctioning aggression and destructive anti-life policies. Unfortunately, the State seems mainly concerned with economic stagnation and the destruction of life and property through war, abortion, anti-capitalistic measures, etc. Abortion is another piece of that puzzle.

It must also be recognized that the process in which abortion became the law of the land was nothing short of statist aggression. The State, through the judicially abominable decision of Roe v. Wade, federalized the matter through convoluted constitutional reasoning. This was a pristine example of political and judicial aggression that denied the rights of individual states to decide the matter by federalizing it. All honest libertarians should see this as an assault on states’ rights regardless of their position on the moral, legal, or philosophical merits of the actual abortion itself.

Notice in this libertarian attack on abortion I have not sought to endorse all pro-life legislation that has been considered over the years. That is because some of the legislation has approached the matter in a big-government or statist approach and actually negates itself because of it. Yet all libertarians should agree that Roe v. Wade is a blow to libertarian philosophy, and the issue should be returned to the states. In the meantime, individual states, and personal consciences would do well to consider the real nature of abortion: an aggressive, irresponsible act which denies personal freedom, liberty and justice to a weaker and inconvenient class of people.

As a libertarian, I defend the pro-life cause not only on moral and spiritual grounds, but also philosophically on the nonaggression principle and upon the principles of freedom and personal liberty. As has been shown, a government that sanctions abortion sanctions aggression, and gives rights and privileges to some (mothers) while taking away rights and harming others (the unwanted children). This tradeoff of rights and State-sponsored aggression is not libertarian, as most "mainstream" libertarians would assume. It is the standard statist model of how society and government should function which is ultimately unfair, immoral and destructive.

Such a concept has much more in common with the philosophy of the Left than it does with the philosophy of freedom. And there’s nothing libertarian about that.
 
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
The two parent family is not a myth, per se....it's just should never have been used to make the single parent feel guilty or odd. Ozzie & Harriet, Father Knows Best, The Brady Bunch....THOSE were myths. As TV and movies went through major changes after 1968 and 1972, they may have had more realistic versions of the American family but it's still surrealistic or unrealistic versions.

The vast majority of Americans have been and are raised by two parent families and came out pretty good. Hell, you can say that for pretty much of the world.

What is and always will be a phallacy is the gay "family". The gay family is an artificial construct....period. And until you can have a pregnant man or a woman impregnate another woman, the gay family will remain an artificial construct.

The Stacey and Bilblarz study will always be the thorn in the side of the gay family advocacy.


:palm:

First off, 62% of children at the last census lived in two parent family homes (not necessarily married). That proves most will be raised in two parent family homes, huh? No, as many of those will end in divorce or breakup before the child is fully raised. Further, some portion of those people are lying or are not aware of the truth that the child is not biologically related to one parent.

First off, were did you get the data...and how does it compared to the actual number of married couples...the actual number of married couples with children? Secondly, your supposition and conjecture are NOT fact...period. Once you understand that, the rest of your life will go easier, and discussion will be shorter.

Your arguments on the homosexual family are just repetitions of the non sequitur and idiotic assumptions of social conservatives.

And you just joined together a lot of words that basically translate that you don't BELIEVE in what I said. Well toodles, you let me know when the first pregnant man rolls around, or when two lesbians produce a child WITHOUT artificial insemination. Until then, your pretentious attempt at insulting me is just a lot of hot air.

Homosexuals have children, through natural processes NOW. The fact that they cannot create them in a homosexual relationship is irrelevant. They can provide a stable home environment, as singles and better as married couples.

Oh spare me this fucking psychotic bullshit of yours! In order to buy into your nonsense, one would have to redefine "natural". Well guess what toodles, NATURE isn't going to redefine itself via reproduction to make the gay family advocates feel comfortable. Why the hell do you think medical science calls it "artificial insemination"? Already, you destroy your argument with these absurd declarations.

The two parent home is not a myth. I didn't say it was, but YOU sure as hell implied that it was. That it any longer provides a stable environment or that the male-female two parent and biologically connected home is the only possible stable environment environment for child rearing, is the myth.

Nope, the "myth" is the exaggeration that you and others are promoting. No one is denying that "marriage" has gone through changes in the last 50 some odd years or so, but last time I checked men and women are still getting married and having kids to raist the pretty stable at a rate that's still the vast majority of how people get together and raise kids in the world...whether you like it, believe it or not.

Also, the idealization of it is a myth, as you agreed.

As I said above, the "CHARACTERIZATION" of marriage is the myth. Got that?
 
Just one more example of your lack of ability to comprehend a posting. Most unfortunate. :(

I don't want there to be any possibility of misunderstanding between us, apple.....I understand your position....I just think it's ugly, despicable, and downright stupid.....I feel dirty when I read your posts, sort of like I want to put my brain in a shower and rinse it off.....
 
It's not an unborn child. That term is as silly as saying a living human being is an undead corpse. There is no such thing. The term "corpse" presupposes a death just as "child" presupposes a birth.

lol.....hardly silly....it's like an uneaten meal, and unspoken idea or an unending pain in the ass....oops, sorry....that was the one that was like you....
 
Having tooth aches and there’s no money for a dentist. Having other kids taunt them because of the old clothes they wear.

It continues to amaze just how much of a fucking idiot you really are......we should kill children, because they might get cavities or because they might not have Aeropostile clothes?......you are such a waste of human-ness.....
 
It is not bullshit or horseshit it is scientific fact that the in utero baby develops its self. I never said that the mothers natural self nurture do not contribute to this developmental process...but that is all it does. The "mother" (love that you acknowledge she is a "mother) if doing no more and no less than she would to sustain her own life, merely provides an environment for the self evolving development that will continue until adult maturity if unhampered. You are a dork to suppose otherwise.

I love that you call her a mother then pretend she's just a pallet, doing nothing. Is this going to be another stupid angel counting argument where you tell me what mother means and then complain that I am splitting hairs? She is a mother because she is providing that function to the fertilized egg, and will throughout the pregnancy.

A woman does not just go through her normal routine during pregnancy. That is stupid. Her body changes in significant ways and it takes a toll.

It is left alone as with the "idea" of not touching it or interfering with it. The analogy was that a zygote was somehow equal to a pile of lumber…it is not for the very reasons I have argued...you fail.

Again, it is "left alone" in the sense that the mother provides everything for the support of that life in ways more intensive than can be imagined in medical fields, but you don't have to do anything.

I am going to show up at your house tomorrow, and if just "left alone" I should have every right to stay there. I'll eat from your plate, poop and piss in your mouth and sleep a lot. If just "left alone" i will continue my progress in this life. I am sure you will not mind.

Yeah, you give examples of the court understanding the nuance while respecting the rights of the mother. Thanks, for digging that up for me.

The entire offerings of analogies, of natural VS medical abortion as any kind of foothold to argue against protecting life, is a straw man and absurd to the argument...and you most certainly attempted to associate them in such a way. Abortion is a premeditated action and as such it begs the question of value to the life being aborted...spontaneous abortion begs no such question! More dorpussness in evidence by you.

It's not a straw man, dumbfuck. I did not say that you were arguing for having funerals for the "spontaneously" aborted.

I was pointing out that the fact we do not mourn them demonstrates that we do not see it as a baby. A baby could "spontaneously" die and we would certainly mourn it. It would not even have to be ours. We could here about in on the news, not even knowing the child, and we might be moved.

No one ever cried over any "children" that "spontaneously" aborted as fertilized eggs. Not even the ones that were theirs. But for this highly valuable life that no one mourns, you would enslave a woman to nine months of hard labor not to mention the support after birth. That is illogical. It is not based on science. It can only be based on myth.

The very fact that the law is capricious is not my opinion it is unfortunately fact. The problem is not the degree of murder charges it is the contradictory nature of such laws that on the one hand can claim the unborn is a person who is owed protection and on the other hand be a non person not owed any...

Because, you deny the importance of the mother and her will in the matter.

You have never made a good legal or scientific argument for abortion. You lack intellectual honesty and depend instead on lazy and tired arguments that lost steam nearly 20 years ago. Science has won the ethical argument against premeditated medical abortions...we are just waiting for the barbarians to be legally put in their places...and I have no doubt they will be.

It is not selfish to feel loss when a woman miscarries...you are so fucked up
in your thinking.

And you argue that I lack intellectual honesty? I did not say that a woman that miscarries only feels selfish loss you fucking retard and I made it quite clear by giving a specific case. You ignore it because it is another moral problem your stupid beliefs can not handle.

A woman, that is having trouble achieving the implantation of a fertilized egg, may try several times and fail. If she feels loss, I doubt she is mourning the death of a baby. She feels pain for not being able to sustain the fertilized egg. If she mourned the death of a baby, she would not keep trying. Would we allow it? Would doctors encourage her to try again?
 
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First off, were did you get the data...and how does it compared to the actual number of married couples...the actual number of married couples with children? Secondly, your supposition and conjecture are NOT fact...period. Once you understand that, the rest of your life will go easier, and discussion will be shorter.

The census. I mentioned that. What supposition and conjecture? It is a fact that many couples married now will divorce. It is a fact that many people lie on surveys. Illegitimacy is not a pretty subject in our society and families lie about it all the time. They always have.

Oh spare me this fucking psychotic bullshit of yours! In order to buy into your nonsense, one would have to redefine "natural". Well guess what toodles, NATURE isn't going to redefine itself via reproduction to make the gay family advocates feel comfortable. Why the hell do you think medical science calls it "artificial insemination"? Already, you destroy your argument with these absurd declarations.

There is no need to redefine a thing. Homosexual women have children and conceive them (not important but...) in usually the same way that heterosexual women do. I am not talking artificial insemination. It would not matter, but there are plenty of kids in homosexual homes that were conceived the same way you were.

YOU sure as hell implied that it was.

Nope, the "myth" is the exaggeration that you and others are promoting. No one is denying that "marriage" has gone through changes in the last 50 some odd years or so, but last time I checked men and women are still getting married and having kids to raist the pretty stable at a rate that's still the vast majority of how people get together and raise kids in the world...whether you like it, believe it or not.

You are full of shit. I did not imply that traditional two parent homes are a myth. Of course, they are not. That's just a straw man.

The myth is that they are the only way, that they are perfectly stable or even, necessarily, the most stable. Marriages are fragile, sometimes toxic, while potentially of great benefit to the partners and the children raised between them. Everybody should get their chance to spin the wheel and see if they can make it work. To deny children of homosexuals the stability, emotional and financial, that marriages can bring is stupid and counterproductive to the interests of society. Not to mention, extremely cruel.
 
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