Ignorance and the Bible

[domer76]

Religious people insist that God is revealed in nature. That's why billions of people on the planet perceive there is a purposeful or providential order to reality.

The claim is that the creation, order, rational design, and beauty of nature points to some kind of purposeful organizing principle. Order and design do not come from inanimate random chance, so they are making a reasonably good logical inference.

Epistle to the Galatians specifically makes the statement that even those who do not know about Jesus or Yaweh still have nature's revelation available to them.

Since religious people can’t identify any evidence of their hidden god except “nature”, it’s understandable that they would go that route.

Billions of people on the planet are largely uneducated and are struggling merely to survive, much less giving rational thought to why their god remains hidden.

Just because the religious claim order and design does not make it so nor does it prove the existence of any deity.

Quoting a book of the New Testament as evidence of a god is a pretty poor method.

 

[Margot]

This is a political message board. Religion and politics are entwined.

Anyone who is mocking Christianity on this board, is doing it in public. I attend a public discussion group where Christianity is routinely mocked and belittled.

Thanks for not disputing my premise that a vocal minority of militant atheists and moral relativists on the left gave Republicans the opportunity to paint the Democratic Party as an atheist organization which has utter contempt for Christianity and traditional Midwestern values.

It shouldn't be a mystery to anyone here why Democrats are now routinely losing Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Iowa, West Virginia, Ohio, when we used to frequently win those states.

Democrats lost their base of Unions and working class people,because they took them for granted!
But Republican MAGA certainly don't do a thing for them!
Most Americans don't really have a Political Party that cares about their needs,only their vote on election day

 

[Margot]

Ehrman refers to himself as both atheist and agnostic. Atheist to the Christian god, but agnostic about a generic god.

Many of these guys began their deconversion at some point during their advanced degree education or afterward. Ehrman went to divinity school to become a pastor, but his advanced study led to his questioning, then finally his rejection of Christianity.

It seems to be the STUDY of the Bible and its errors and inconsistencies that lead many of these scholars to their conclusions.

The Bible is over rated,I've learned 10 times as much from the Holy Spirit then the Bible

 

[Cypress]

Since religious people can’t identify any evidence of their hidden god except “nature”, it’s understandable that they would go that route.

Empirical physical evidence is only one certain kind of evidence - and apparently the only kind of evidence atheists think there is.

You can't prove Fermat's theorem, or make any statements about the nature of infinity with empirical evidence. It requires logical deduction and rationality.

Natural revelation is powerful. That's why billions of people on the planet consider it to be demonstrative of a purposeful and providential design.

If 'God' showed up in your living room and did magic tricks, you would be convinced you were crazy or hallucinating. Natural revelation is much more powerful than that

Billions of people on the planet are largely uneducated and are struggling merely to survive, much less giving rational thought to why their god remains hidden.

So you claim to be superior to the vast majority of humanity.

Just because the religious claim order and design does not make it so nor does it prove the existence of any deity.

You have no experiences in your life of exquisite design and rational mathematical order coming from random chance. That's powerful evidence.

The miracles atheists believe in are at least as extraordinary as the ones Christians believe in.

Quoting a book of the New Testament as evidence of a god is a pretty poor method.

The Christian apologists don't just cite the historical testimony of the New Testament.

They also cite the logical inferences of the cosmological argument, the teleological argument, and the moral argument.

Collectively and taken as a whole, those collections of arguments are rational, even if one doesn't agree with the conclusions.

As an agnostic, I wouldn't even consider the possibility of Christianity as a belief system, unless I could be convinced it is rational.

 

[domer76]

The Bible is over rated,I've learned 10 times as much from the Holy Spirit then the Bible

I don’t know what the Holy Spirit is. Are you referring to 1/3 of the Trinity? If so, that’s an invention to try to solve the problem of Jesus as a deity and still maintain the concept of monotheism.

 

[Cypress]

Democrats lost their base of Unions and working class people,because they took them for granted!
But Republican MAGA certainly don't do a thing for them!
Most Americans don't really have a Political Party that cares about their needs,only their vote on election day

Right now we are facing fascism.

Given the stakes, I really don't care about Hobby Lobby, a Bible in an Oklahoma classroom, or whether a few dozen transgenders desire to swim on NCAA women's teams.

Those issues can be pursued quietly in the courts. Those aren't hills Democats should choose to die on.

If Democats refuse to learn that culture matters as much as policy, they will continue to lose Midwestern and Appalachian states they used to routinely win.

 

[domer76]

Empirical physical evidence is only one certain kind of evidence - and apparently the only kind of evidence atheists think there is.

You can't prove Fermat's theorem, or make any statements about the nature of infinity with empirical evidence. It requires logical deduction and rationality.

Natural revelation is powerful. That's why billions of people on the planet consider it to be demonstrative of a purposeful and providential design.

If 'God' showed up in your living room and did magic tricks, you would be convinced you were crazy or hallucinating. Natural revelation is much more powerful than that

So you claim to be superior to the vast majority of humanity.

You have no experiences in your life of exquisite design and rational mathematical order coming from random chance. That's powerful evidence.

The miracles atheists believe in are at least as extraordinary as the ones Christians believe in.

The Christian apologists don't just cite the historical testimony of the New Testament.

They also cite the logical inferences of the cosmological argument, the teleological argument, and the moral argument.

Collectively and taken as a whole, those collections of arguments are rational, even if one doesn't agree with the conclusions.

As an agnostic, I wouldn't even consider the possibility of Christianity as a belief system, unless I could be convinced it is rational.

I made no claim about being superior to anyone. I made the correct statement that billions are uneducated and are in a struggle merely to survive, much less contemplate philosophy, theology or ponder the existence of a supreme being.

So far, God has not shown up in ANYBODY’S living room to reveal himself. Nor has he shown up on the world stage to reveal himself. Wouldn’t it be quite simple for an omni-everything god to do? To clarify his message for all mankind rather than leave everyone guessing. THERE’S the rational
person’s position.

What the fuck is “natural revelation”? Sounds like some sort of circular argument that theists are famous for.

Atheists don’t believe in miracles. That’s for the theists.

The concept that there is a purposeful and orderly design that points to a deity is absurd. For the vast majority of this planet’s existence there was nothing but chaos. Violent chaos. So, where was this deity then? Not getting around to this place yet?

Because their are pretty trees and mountains and rivers and all species of plants and animals provides ZERO evidence of any design or deity.

 

[Cypress]

I made no claim about being superior to anyone. I made the correct statement that billions are uneducated and are in a struggle merely to survive, much less contemplate philosophy, theology or ponder the existence of a supreme being.

There are Hindus, Muslims, Christians who have won Nobel prizes in physics.

So far, God has not shown up in ANYBODY’S living room to reveal himself. Nor has he shown up on the world stage to reveal himself. Wouldn’t it be quite simple for an omni-everything god to do? To clarify his message for all mankind rather than leave everyone guessing. THERE’S the rational
person’s position.

What the fuck is “natural revelation”? Sounds like some sort of circular argument that theists are famous for.

You claimed to be knowledgeable about religion. Natural revelation is discussed in the New Testament and widely in religious discourse.

Atheists don’t believe in miracles. That’s for the theists.

Atheists believe something can come from nothing; order and design come from random chance; life comes from non-life.

Those miracles are as extraordinary as the religious belief in a purposeful organizing entity or Tao underlying reality.

The concept that there is a purposeful and orderly design that points to a deity is absurd. For the vast majority of this planet’s existence there was nothing but chaos. Violent chaos. So, where was this deity then? Not getting around to this place yet?

Because their are pretty trees and mountains and rivers and all species of plants and animals provides ZERO evidence of any design or deity.

The physical laws and mathematical constants of the universe converge and are finely tuned on the edge of a razor blade, and that is the only reason atomic matter can exist, and why the universe persists without collapsing on itself, or blowing itself apart.

This has been known by physicists for decades and is so curious in nature it is the subject of ongoing debate by scientists, theologians, philosophers.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I would press people on what exactly they mean by "scholar".

To me, a scholar is someone with a PhD at a reputable university who does original research in their field of expertise.

I don't consider TikTok 'scholars', YouTube scholars, or Blog scholars to really be in that league.

With that definition in mind, I've never seen evidence that the majority of Religious scholars or Biblical scholars are atheists

Agreed. Like MAGAts, I suspect the answer is "anyone who agrees with them".

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Which means that atheism simply means without God.

Which means that it is not a belief system qua belief system. Just as NOT playing baseball is not itself a sport.

Which is how atheists claim Buddhists in their numbers. Weird!

 

[Margot]

Right now we are facing fascism.

Given the stakes, I really don't care about Hobby Lobby, a Bible in an Oklahoma classroom, or whether a few dozen transgenders desire to swim on NCAA women's teams.

Those issues can be pursued quietly in the courts. Those aren't hills Democats should choose to die on.

If Democats refuse to learn that culture matters as much as policy, they will continue to lose Midwestern and Appalachian states they used to routinely win.

The Democratic Party has never been weaker! The Republican party that we knew,doesn't exist! It's now the Fascist party of Trump!
The MAGA fuhrer

 

[RB 60]

Frank reminds me a little of Jordan Peterson on this subject. A lot of word salad, but little substance.

Well, I don't know Jordan Peterson, But Frank is a nice guy. He just has his political views all screwed up. Sadly, a sign of Dementia

 

[RB 60]

Your choice to disregard logic in favor of your emotional attachment to atheism. As for Pascal, there's the man and there's the decision tree. The decision tree is logical. Human beings, by their very nature, are flawed.

FWIW, Christian nationalists are not Christians. It's an oxymoron with an emphasis on moron.

You never heard of the Four Horsemen of New Atheism? Let me help you:

New Atheism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Major figures of New Atheism include Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, and Christopher Hitchens,[3] collectively referred to as the "Four Horsemen" of the movement.[5] Proponents of the New Atheist movement have experienced some controversy and criticisms from academics and other atheists.


https://cnyepiscopal.org/2024/08/01...w-does-it-distort-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/
Rather than seeing beauty in the wide variety of humanity in America, Christian nationalists single out one segment of society and hold up those who espouse an abridged version of Christianity as the exemplar for all. And while Christian nationalists overtly focus on religion, racist, sexist, and anti-LGBTQIA rhetoric often is employed.

Christian nationalism truncates the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The emphasis is on personal salvation and often downplays or ignores the social responsibilities of the Gospel.

Christian Nationalism Is Neither Christian Nor Nationalistic

Two of the worst words in the Church today is "Christian Nationalism." Neither are Christian or from this nation. Both should be understood!

www.patheos.com

The roots of Christian nationalism are not biblical—they are theosophical, political and ethnocentric.

Throughout Western history, Christian nationalism has been used as a veneer to justify imperialism, colonialism and ethnic domination. If that sounds like a fascist regime, it should. The idea emerged during Constantine’s era when the Roman Empire insisted on the Christian faith as a civic identity. Centuries of political Christianity followed through crusades, inquisitions and enemies of the state. Power became a sacrament and force masquerading as theology.

Consider this: Just because the emperor was an advocate for Christianity doesn’t make what he did to force the issue any less fascist.

The American version of Christian nationalism dates back to colonial Puritanism, which saw the New World as a “city on a hill.” Yet the Constitution of the United States directly opposes any such union, with the First Amendment forbidding the establishment of religion. Despite this, figures throughout American history have continued to equate patriotism with Christianity.

Adam's only flaw was that he was pussy whipped into eating the Forbidden Fruit.

Why do you say Christian Nationalists are not Christians> Can't one be both loyal to God and also Country? I'd say yes.

As for the rest of the post, lots of opinionated gargon. A-men.

 

[domer76]

There are Hindus, Muslims, Christians who have won Nobel prizes in physics.



You claimed to be knowledgeable about religion. Natural revelation is discussed in the New Testament and widely in religious discourse.

Atheists believe something can come from nothing; order and design come from random chance; life comes from non-life.

Those miracles are as extraordinary as the religious belief in a purposeful organizing entity or Tao underlying reality.

The physical laws and mathematical constants of the universe converge and are finely tuned on the edge of a razor blade, and that is the only reason atomic matter can exist, and why the universe persists without collapsing on itself, or blowing itself apart.

This has been known by physicists for decades and is so curious in nature it is the subject of ongoing debate by scientists, theologians, philosophers.

Great about those Nobel Prizes. Irrelevant to the masses that I referred to.

Quoting the Bible to validate the Bible is circular reasoning.

Unlike the Bible myths, atheism doesn’t claim to know the origin of life. A simple “we don’t know” is sufficient. There is no “God of the gaps”. Someday, science will probably figure it out.

Miracles are extraordinary and require extraordinary proof. There is no proof, much less extraordinary proof.

Yes, the physical laws and mathematical constants are finally tuned. That’s why we’re here and not blowing apart. If not, we wouldn’t exist. So?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Unlike the Bible myths, atheism doesn’t claim to know the origin of life. A simple “we don’t know” is sufficient. There is no “God of the gaps”. Someday, science will probably figure it out.

Miracles are extraordinary and require extraordinary proof. There is no proof, much less extraordinary proof.

Yes, the physical laws and mathematical constants are finally tuned. That’s why we’re here and not blowing apart. If not, we wouldn’t exist. So?

Atheism is saying "there is no God". Agnosticism says "I don't know if there's a God and there's no way to prove or disprove God's existence".

Miracles don't exist. Just unlikely outcomes like the sole survivor of the Air India crash. The idiots claiming Trump was spared an assassin's bullet as a miracle are neglecting the others who were killed or maimed in the shooting including the kid assassin himself.

 

[Ross Dolan]

There are some verses in the OT in which God refers to himself in the plural ("Let us make man in our image" and "Man has become like one of us".

That sounds more like the "royal we"...not the plural.

Sorta like Queen Victoria saying, "We are not amused." The Pope often speaks using the "royal we" tone.

Not sure if the "royal we" was used during the time the OT was written...or if translations account for it.

In any case, the notion of monotheism being superior to polytheism seems strained to me. Polytheism seems as rational as monotheism to me...and neither seems particularly rational at all. Both not only blindly guess at least one god exists...but also blindly guess attributes of the god or gods.

 

[Ross Dolan]

I know it can seem upsetting when people complain about the Bible. But remember: there are, for instance, women who currently lack access to necessary healthcare procedures solely because of some people's adherence to the Bible.

Hobby Lobby insists that they shouldn't have to provide certain family planning meds for women because of their deeply held Christian faith (which ironically doesn't stop them from running illegal sales or stealing artifacts from around the world).

Atheists are the ones standing up against these sorts of things.

Bullshit. Just as many theists and agnostics stand up against those things as do atheists.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Great about those Nobel Prizes. Irrelevant to the masses that I referred to.

Quoting the Bible to validate the Bible is circular reasoning.

Unlike the Bible myths, atheism doesn’t claim to know the origin of life. A simple “we don’t know” is sufficient. There is no “God of the gaps”. Someday, science will probably figure it out.

Miracles are extraordinary and require extraordinary proof. There is no proof, much less extraordinary proof.

Yes, the physical laws and mathematical constants are finally tuned. That’s why we’re here and not blowing apart. If not, we wouldn’t exist. So?

How do you KNOW there are no gods of the gaps...or are you just blindly guessing again?