Could A Good God Permit So Much Suffering?

[Cypress]

That seems to fit with the maxim about not being a liberal when young means one has no heart and not being a conservative in middle-age means one has no brain. Abby's living "life on his own terms" is the aspiration of most teenagers. Most people outgrow it since they either do it or they don't. Most do. 25 year olds still living at home is an anomaly of our times.

Agreed his philosophy seems more idealistic, as opposed to realistic. Again, common among teenagers but not for the over-30 age group.

Millions of young (and not-so-young) adults still live at home

Facing affordability challenges, the share of 25- to 34-year-olds living with parents has risen after trending down during the pandemic.

www.realestatenews.com

Facing affordability challenges, the share of 25- to 34-year-olds living with parents has risen after trending down during the pandemic.

During the pandemic, more young adults started living on their own, but as rents and home prices rose, that trend appears to have stalled.

About 8.5 million adults between the ages of 25 and 34 were living in the homes of their parents or parents-in-law in 2023, according to a National Association of Home Builders analysis of the most recent U.S. Census data. That's a slight increase from 2022 after declining for five consecutive years.

Trends over time: The financial crisis of 2008 had both immediate and lasting effects on millennials, who were about to embark on college or careers at the time. They found themselves saddled with student loan debt, and over the next decade, they had higher rates of unemployment than any other generation, making it difficult to save up for an apartment or house.

That coincided with a sharp increase in the share of young adults living with parents, which rose from about 15% in 2007 to 22% — or 9.7 million young adults — a decade later.

But in 2019, the percentages began trending back down, with big drops between 2020 and 2022.

While below peak levels seen in 2017 and 2018, the latest numbers remain well above historical levels. In 2000, for example, just 12% of young adults (4.6 million) still lived at home.

Correct.

I decided Edward Abby was really only a sage for people under 25 years old. That bullshit about ignoring society expectations and living on your own terms only works for real eccentrics.


On the previous tangent, there is something mildly ridiculous secularists who call themselves Zen Buddhists, but then deny the religious aspect of Buddhism.

The most famous event of the Buddha's life involved being tempted by demons and spirits under the Bodi tree, and the most famous canonical book attributed to The Buddha is chock full of references to deities and demons.

I can't figure out why one would attach the label 'Buddhist' to their lifestyle, but then disavow the teachings and life experience of the Buddha

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Correct.

I decided Edward Abby was really only a sage for people under 25 years old. That bullshit about ignoring society expectations and living on your own terms only works for real eccentrics.


On the previous tangent, there is something mildly ridiculous secularists who call themselves Zen Buddhists, but then deny the religious aspect of Buddhism.

The most famous event of the Buddha's life involved being tempted by demons and spirits under the Bodi tree, and the most famous canonical book attributed to The Buddha is chock full of references to deities and demons.

I can't figure out why one would attach the label 'Buddhist' to their lifestyle, but then disavow the teachings and life experience of the Buddha

There are three main forms of Buddhism with multiple minor variations; Theravada, Tibetan and Zen. Zen breaks out into forms that are less religious. Some more of a philosophy than a religion. It's the same as with Christianity. There are multiple main forms, even of Catholicism, and hundreds of Protestant forms even though they all reference the same Bible...albeit some with different translations.

Zen has a spiritual side but it leans agnostic. Tibetan believes in reincarnation and even Theravada has a form of former monks returning to the mortal realm. Zen, as a philosophy, strikes me more as being both agnostic and akin to Pascal's wager; we don't know if there is anything beyond the mortal, but by following the Noble Eightfold Path we can leave happy productive lives as mortals while also laying a path toward spiritual enlightenment.

The goal of Zen is understanding and enlightenment, not attempting to appease God or the gods. This is why I see it as more philosophical than religious compared to Tibetan and Theravada Buddhism.

https://dharmagatezen.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/The-Noble-Eightfold-Path.pdf

1. UNDERSTANDING: We come to understand that everything is ruled by cause and effect. We gain insight into the impermanent, unsatisfactory and impersonal nature of life.
2. INTENTION: We develop our intention to meet all pain with compassion and all pleasure with unattached appreciation, to be generous and kind to all living beings, to be honest and humble, to live with integrity, and to practice non-harming.
3. COMMUNICATION/COMMUNITY: We take refuge in the community as a place to practice being honest, wise and careful with our communication, asking for help from the community and supporting others on their path. We practice openness, honesty and humility about the difficulties and successes we experience.
4. ACTION/ENGAGEMENT: We abstain from all substances and behaviors that could lead to suffering. Compassion, non-attached appreciation, generosity, kindness, honesty, integrity, and service become our guiding principles. We practice forgiveness through meditative training and direct amends.
5. LIVELIHOOD/SERVICE: We try to be of service to others whenever possible, using our time, energy and resources to help create positive change. We try to secure a source of income/livelihood that does not profit from the confusion and suffering of others.
6. EFFORT/ENERGY: We redirect our life’s energy in order to recover from our addictions. Only with wise and intentional use of that energy can we master the liberating practices of the Eightfold Path, and avoid the reactive tendencies that create more addiction and suffering in our lives.
7. MINDFULNESS/MEDITATION: We develop wisdom by practicing formal mindfulness meditation. This leads to seeing clearly and healing the root causes and conditions that lead to the suffering of addiction. We practice present-time awareness in all aspects of our lives.
8. CONCENTRATION/MEDITATION: We develop the capacity to focus the mind on a single object, such as the breath or a phrase, training the mind through the practice of lovingkindness, compassion and forgiveness to focus on the positive qualities we seek to uncover. We utilize concentration at times of temptation or craving in order to abstain from acting unwisely. The Eightfold Path is an ongoing practice that leads to the end of suffering and freedom from addiction.

 

[Cypress]

There are three main forms of Buddhism with multiple minor variations; Theravada, Tibetan and Zen. Zen breaks out into forms that are less religious. Some more of a philosophy than a religion. It's the same as with Christianity. There are multiple main forms, even of Catholicism, and hundreds of Protestant forms even though they all reference the same Bible...albeit some with different translations.

Zen has a spiritual side but it leans agnostic. Tibetan believes in reincarnation and even Theravada has a form of former monks returning to the mortal realm. Zen, as a philosophy, strikes me more as being both agnostic and akin to Pascal's wager; we don't know if there is anything beyond the mortal, but by following the Noble Eightfold Path we can leave happy productive lives as mortals while also laying a path toward spiritual enlightenment.

The goal of Zen is understanding and enlightenment, not attempting to appease God or the gods. This is why I see it as more philosophical than religious compared to Tibetan and Theravada Buddhism.

https://dharmagatezen.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/The-Noble-Eightfold-Path.pdf

1. UNDERSTANDING: We come to understand that everything is ruled by cause and effect. We gain insight into the impermanent, unsatisfactory and impersonal nature of life.
2. INTENTION: We develop our intention to meet all pain with compassion and all pleasure with unattached appreciation, to be generous and kind to all living beings, to be honest and humble, to live with integrity, and to practice non-harming.
3. COMMUNICATION/COMMUNITY: We take refuge in the community as a place to practice being honest, wise and careful with our communication, asking for help from the community and supporting others on their path. We practice openness, honesty and humility about the difficulties and successes we experience.
4. ACTION/ENGAGEMENT: We abstain from all substances and behaviors that could lead to suffering. Compassion, non-attached appreciation, generosity, kindness, honesty, integrity, and service become our guiding principles. We practice forgiveness through meditative training and direct amends.
5. LIVELIHOOD/SERVICE: We try to be of service to others whenever possible, using our time, energy and resources to help create positive change. We try to secure a source of income/livelihood that does not profit from the confusion and suffering of others.
6. EFFORT/ENERGY: We redirect our life’s energy in order to recover from our addictions. Only with wise and intentional use of that energy can we master the liberating practices of the Eightfold Path, and avoid the reactive tendencies that create more addiction and suffering in our lives.
7. MINDFULNESS/MEDITATION: We develop wisdom by practicing formal mindfulness meditation. This leads to seeing clearly and healing the root causes and conditions that lead to the suffering of addiction. We practice present-time awareness in all aspects of our lives.
8. CONCENTRATION/MEDITATION: We develop the capacity to focus the mind on a single object, such as the breath or a phrase, training the mind through the practice of lovingkindness, compassion and forgiveness to focus on the positive qualities we seek to uncover. We utilize concentration at times of temptation or craving in order to abstain from acting unwisely. The Eightfold Path is an ongoing practice that leads to the end of suffering and freedom from addiction.

Understood about the main schools of Buddhism.

But I am pretty sure the Dhammapada is the canonical scripture accepted by all Buddhists, regardless of Therevada, Mahayana, or Chan/Zen tradition.. The Dhammapada definitely recognizes a spiritual realm and the reality of deities. I don't see how a secular atheist can realistically call themselves Buddhist.

I can see them practicing Zen meditation techniques, but without coopting the label 'Buddhist' and applying it to themselves.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Understood about the main schools of Buddhism.

But I am pretty sure the Dhammapada is the canonical scripture accepted by all Buddhists, regardless of Therevada, Mahayana, or Chan/Zen tradition.. The Dhammapada definitely recognizes a spiritual realm and the reality of deities. I don't see how a secular atheist can realistically call themselves Buddhist.

I can see them practicing Zen meditation techniques, but without coopting the label 'Buddhist' and applying it to themselves.

While all ancient texts are interesting, I'm not a religious (read Dogmatic) person.* All can be learned from as noted in our previous discussion on "nothing new under the Sun" but I do not cross the line of "worship". Understanding is much better, IMHO.

Labeling oneself a "Buddhist" connotates religion. I see labeling oneself as Zen or even Zen Buddhist as more secular and agnostic. Akin to one claiming to a Christian who doesn't believe Jesus was divine such as Arians, Theodotians and Oneness Pentecostals.

Is Jesus God? What 21 Religions, Denominations and Belief Systems Say About His Divinity

Is Jesus God? Explore views on the matter from 21 world religions, denominations and belief systems. This article examines beliefs about Jesus’ divinity, from Christianity to Islam, Hinduism, and beyond.

www.bartehrman.com

9 Faith Groups That Deny the Trinity Doctrine

The Trinity doctrine is central to most Christian denominations even though the term is not in the Bible. Non-trinitarian faiths reject the doctrine.

www.learnreligions.com

Why do you accuse others of "coopting" Buddhism yet not those who don't toe the line on Christianity?

*BTW, funny movie recommendation: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120655/

 

[Cypress]

While all ancient texts are interesting, I'm not a religious (read Dogmatic) person.* All can be learned from as noted in our previous discussion on "nothing new under the Sun" but I do not cross the line of "worship". Understanding is much better, IMHO.

Labeling oneself a "Buddhist" connotates religion. I see labeling oneself as Zen or even Zen Buddhist as more secular and agnostic. Akin to one claiming to a Christian who doesn't believe Jesus was divine such as Arians, Theodotians and Oneness Pentecostals.

Is Jesus God? What 21 Religions, Denominations and Belief Systems Say About His Divinity

Is Jesus God? Explore views on the matter from 21 world religions, denominations and belief systems. This article examines beliefs about Jesus’ divinity, from Christianity to Islam, Hinduism, and beyond.

www.bartehrman.com

9 Faith Groups That Deny the Trinity Doctrine

The Trinity doctrine is central to most Christian denominations even though the term is not in the Bible. Non-trinitarian faiths reject the doctrine.

www.learnreligions.com

Why do you accuse others of "coopting" Buddhism yet not those who don't toe the line on Christianity?

*BTW, funny movie recommendation: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120655/

I think anyone can adopt individual practices from Buddhism and Christianity. That's perfectly understandable.

I'm just the type of person who thinks words have meanings.

To be called a Christian at a minimum means believing in the resurrection of Christ. I think to be called a Buddhist at a minimum you probably have to accept the Dhammapada as holy scripture.

You mentioned Gnostics
They weren't secularists.
They definitely had an entire cosmology of gods, spirits, and an afterlife. To them Jesus was an earthly manifestation of a higher God.

 

[Based Chad]

I don't read polemicists either of the religious variety or of the atheist variety.

Polemicists aren't convincing to me.

Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins are mudslingers who have adopted a belligerent style to sell books, but their criticisms of religion is ultimately superficial and unconvincing.

I will never read anything from Joel Osteen or the Creation Science Museum Research Institute. Unless I need a laugh.

The most rational and compelling arguments for Christianity I've read are from the Oxford scholar CS Lewis and the American geneticist Francis Collins.

The most rational arguments for a non-relgious tradition I've read about are from Albert Einstein and the existentialist Albert Camus.

Correct.

I decided Edward Abby was really only a sage for people under 25 years old. That bullshit about ignoring society expectations and living on your own terms only works for real eccentrics.


On the previous tangent, there is something mildly ridiculous secularists who call themselves Zen Buddhists, but then deny the religious aspect of Buddhism.

The most famous event of the Buddha's life involved being tempted by demons and spirits under the Bodi tree, and the most famous canonical book attributed to The Buddha is chock full of references to deities and demons.

I can't figure out why one would attach the label 'Buddhist' to their lifestyle, but then disavow the teachings and life experience of the Buddha

what's more ridiculous is christians doubling down on Gaza genocide.

fuck you, ape-faced demon.

 

[martin]

Correct.

I decided Edward Abby was really only a sage for people under 25 years old. That bullshit about ignoring society expectations and living on your own terms only works for real eccentrics.

I can't figure out why one would attach the label 'Buddhist' to their lifestyle, but then disavow the teachings and life experience of the Buddha

Maybe not knowing any better.

 

[Hume]

Your original post seemed like it was directly and unequivocally related to religion and to questioning it's rationality -->

It was not. A question about whether God can prevent suffering.
But, you just want to talk about religion.