Air India plane crash investigation suggests pilots may have made a fatal mistake just after takeoff

[Scott]

I can't see how it could have happened accidentally. Both switches turned off at a critical moment when neither pilot should have been messing with the throttles or flaps but focused on getting the wheels up. It clearly isn't a maintenance issue either.

I understand that the flight recorder shows the pilot(s) tried to restart the engines and that was in progress (one or the other turned the fuel back on) and one engine had relit and was coming up to power while the other had just relit when the plane crashed.

So, it appears to be deliberate on the part of one of the cockpit crew.

I've heard that planes can be tampered with via remote control. Heck, this was a plot point of the pilot episode of The Lone Gunmen, an X Files spinoff show, which aired around 6 months before 9/11:

Pre 9/11 controversy

In The Lone Gunmen’s premiere episode, “Pilot”, which aired March 4, 2001, members of the U.S. government conspire to hijack an airliner, almost hitting the World Trade Center, and blame the act on terrorists to gain support for a new profit-making war. The episode aired six months prior to the...

the-lone-gunmen.fandom.com

So while I acknowledge that perhaps one of the cockpit crew did it, I think it's also possible that it was done remotely.

 

[Hawkeye10]

I've heard that planes can be tampered with via remote control. Heck, this was a plot point of the pilot episode of The Lone Gunmen, an X Files spinoff show, which aired around 6 months before 9/11:

Pre 9/11 controversy

In The Lone Gunmen’s premiere episode, “Pilot”, which aired March 4, 2001, members of the U.S. government conspire to hijack an airliner, almost hitting the World Trade Center, and blame the act on terrorists to gain support for a new profit-making war. The episode aired six months prior to the...

the-lone-gunmen.fandom.com

So while I acknowledge that perhaps one of the cockpit crew did it, I think it's also possible that it was done remotely.

Ya I see that claim on X.....I suppose I need to add to my list:

4: A lie to cover that this plane was brought down by hacking.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

I believe I once started a long thread on the evidence as to who downed the plane alleged to be MH 17, as well as whether it was actually MH 17 to begin with. Unfortunately, the site that thread was on has been taken down and apparently even the way back machine never tracked it. My browser still remembers the link, so if you know of another wayback type site that might have it, it's here:

https://thepoliticsforums.com/threads/193704-Who-Really-Shot-Down-Malaysian-Flight-MH17-americanfreepress-net

As I usually do with threads, the title was from an article from the American Free Press. That article, at least, is still up:

Who Really Shot Down Malaysian Flight MH17? – American Free Press

americanfreepress.net

The article was published soon after the plane alleged to be MH 17 was shot down. Quoting the article's conclusion:
**
When the jetliner was brought down from the sky on July 17, Russia’s Defense Ministry recorded satellite images of a Buk-M1 system operating within the zone of Kiev forces in Eastern Ukraine along the Donetsk border near the MH17 crash site. Radiation from a battery’s Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla (a village some 30 kilometers south of Donetsk) was detected by the Russian military.

But was it even a surface-to-air missile that took the plane down?

Russian Air Force chief Lieutenant General Igor Makushev said that Russian radar had spotted a second aircraft in the ill-fated airliner’s vicinity just before the crash and that it was likely a Ukrainian fighter jet.

A BBC report confirms the general’s claim of a Ukrainian fighter jet.

“The inhabitants of the nearby villages are certain they saw military aircraft in the sky shortly before the catastrophe,” reported the BBC. “According to them, it was the jet fighter that brought down the Boeing.”

“There were two explosions,” a villager told the BBC. She added: “This is how it broke apart,” and then she gestured with her arms. “And there was another aircraft, a military one beside it,” she told the BBC. “Everybody saw it. It was proceeding underneath, below the civilian one.”

“[The fighter jets] use civilian jets to hide behind them,” another villager told the BBC. Eleven people were reportedly killed in his apartment building recently when it was bombed by a Ukrainian fighter jet. “Civilian aircraft are always flying above us,” he said.

Kiev was also in charge of air traffic control once the Malaysian plane was over Ukrainian airspace. Flight 17 was directed about 150 miles north from the usual flight path taken by Malaysian Airlines, for no apparent reason, placing it right into the war zone.

It is unclear still who shot down the plane or why. But one thing is clear: Without a full investigation, it cannot at this point be claimed with any certainty that pro-Russian forces were behind it.
**

Two simple questions on this:

What type of plane were the Ukrainians using?

and

What type of missile was fired from it?

 

[T. A. Gardner]

I've heard that planes can be tampered with via remote control. Heck, this was a plot point of the pilot episode of The Lone Gunmen, an X Files spinoff show, which aired around 6 months before 9/11:

Pre 9/11 controversy

In The Lone Gunmen’s premiere episode, “Pilot”, which aired March 4, 2001, members of the U.S. government conspire to hijack an airliner, almost hitting the World Trade Center, and blame the act on terrorists to gain support for a new profit-making war. The episode aired six months prior to the...

the-lone-gunmen.fandom.com

So while I acknowledge that perhaps one of the cockpit crew did it, I think it's also possible that it was done remotely.

The switches are manually operated. They can't be remotely operated. They are a simple toggle switch either SPST or DPST.

 

[Hawkeye10]

The switches are manually operated. They can't be remotely operated. They are a simple toggle switch either SPST or DPST.

Fuel to the engines might be, and it might be that it is either assumed that the switches were switched or that this is a lie.

 

[Hawkeye10]

It is very interesting that we are not told who said "Why did you cut off the fuel" and "I did not" (paraphrase).

If this ever happened the experts know....what is the justification for keeping this from us?

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Fuel to the engines might be, and it might be that it is either assumed that the switches were switched or that this is a lie.

Since from what I read the switches were placed back on and the engines were restarting as the plane crashed, it's pretty clear somebody in the cockpit turned them off. That was either deliberately done or accidental. I can't see how you'd do it accidentally.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Since from what I read the switches were placed back on and the engines were restarting as the plane crashed, it's pretty clear somebody in the cockpit turned them off. That was either deliberately done or accidental. I can't see how you'd do it accidentally.

Says the Indian authorities....to the extent that they can be believed.

 

[Scott]

It is very interesting that we are not told who said "Why did you cut off the fuel" and "I did not" (paraphrase).

Good point. I think that something that Airline Pilots' Association of India said yesterday is important. Quoting from an article:
**
Soon after the release of the preliminary findings, the Airline Pilots’ Association of India (ALPA) said on Saturday that the investigation appeared to be proceeding with the assumption that the pilots were at fault.

ALPA chief Sam Thomas said in a statement on Saturday, July 12, “The tone and direction of the investigation suggest a bias toward pilot error. We categorically reject this presumption and insist on a fair, fact-based inquiry.”

The association also pointed out that “suitably qualified personnel are not taken on board for these crucial investigations,” Hindustan Times reported.

The association reiterated its request to be allowed to take part in the investigation “even in the capacity of observers so as to provide the requisite transparency.”
**

Source:

Why the last conversation of Air India pilots deepens crash mystery

The Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau (AAIB) of India has released its findings on the Air India plane crash, bringing fresh focus to engine fuel cutoff switches. The cockpit voice recorder also raises confusion. One pilot asked, ‘Why did you cut off fuel?’ while the other denied doing it...

www.firstpost.com

Why isn't the associating being allowed to take part in the investigation? I'm beginning to suspect that those in charge of the investigation aren't telling the truth, or at least not the full truth.

 

[Scott]

The switches are manually operated. They can't be remotely operated. They are a simple toggle switch either SPST or DPST.

Alright. I'm beginning to question the honesty of the report itself at this point.

 

[Scott]

I believe I once started a long thread on the evidence as to who downed the plane alleged to be MH 17, as well as whether it was actually MH 17 to begin with. Unfortunately, the site that thread was on has been taken down and apparently even the way back machine never tracked it. My browser still remembers the link, so if you know of another wayback type site that might have it, it's here:

https://thepoliticsforums.com/threads/193704-Who-Really-Shot-Down-Malaysian-Flight-MH17-americanfreepress-net

As I usually do with threads, the title was from an article from the American Free Press. That article, at least, is still up:

Who Really Shot Down Malaysian Flight MH17? – American Free Press

americanfreepress.net

The article was published soon after the plane alleged to be MH 17 was shot down. Quoting the article's conclusion:
**
When the jetliner was brought down from the sky on July 17, Russia’s Defense Ministry recorded satellite images of a Buk-M1 system operating within the zone of Kiev forces in Eastern Ukraine along the Donetsk border near the MH17 crash site. Radiation from a battery’s Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla (a village some 30 kilometers south of Donetsk) was detected by the Russian military.

But was it even a surface-to-air missile that took the plane down?

Russian Air Force chief Lieutenant General Igor Makushev said that Russian radar had spotted a second aircraft in the ill-fated airliner’s vicinity just before the crash and that it was likely a Ukrainian fighter jet.

A BBC report confirms the general’s claim of a Ukrainian fighter jet.

“The inhabitants of the nearby villages are certain they saw military aircraft in the sky shortly before the catastrophe,” reported the BBC. “According to them, it was the jet fighter that brought down the Boeing.”

“There were two explosions,” a villager told the BBC. She added: “This is how it broke apart,” and then she gestured with her arms. “And there was another aircraft, a military one beside it,” she told the BBC. “Everybody saw it. It was proceeding underneath, below the civilian one.”

“[The fighter jets] use civilian jets to hide behind them,” another villager told the BBC. Eleven people were reportedly killed in his apartment building recently when it was bombed by a Ukrainian fighter jet. “Civilian aircraft are always flying above us,” he said.

Kiev was also in charge of air traffic control once the Malaysian plane was over Ukrainian airspace. Flight 17 was directed about 150 miles north from the usual flight path taken by Malaysian Airlines, for no apparent reason, placing it right into the war zone.

It is unclear still who shot down the plane or why. But one thing is clear: Without a full investigation, it cannot at this point be claimed with any certainty that pro-Russian forces were behind it.
**

Two simple questions on this:

What type of plane were the Ukrainians using?

and

What type of missile was fired from it?

I don't know if a plane fired a missile at all. Remember that the article I referenced was published back in 2014. After looking at some articles from RT, I found the following bit of information from an article published in 2022:
**
Russia’s Alamaz Antey, the producer of the Buk system, released its own analysis of the incident. The company concluded that the plane was shot down by an older version of the Buk missile, which was not used by Russia but remained in service in the Ukrainian military.
**

Source:

MH17 verdict 'politically motivated' – Russia

The Dutch court’s decision in the MH17 case was taken under “unprecedented pressure” that made it into a “political put-up job,” Moscow said

www.rt.com

 

[serendipity]

I believe a Ukrainian pilot shot down an aircraft alleged to be MH 17. I've just heard that the aircraft may not in fact have been MH 17. Regardless, Russia certainly doesn't support the western conclusions as to who downed the aircraft alleged to be MH 17. The following RT article from May of this year gets into Russia's stance:

Moscow reacts to UN aviation agency’s MH17 vote

The investigation into the downing of MH17 was deeply flawed, Russia has said

www.rt.com

Are you serious the Russians always deny this stuff, why the fuck anyone should believe is truly beyond me.

 

[Scott]

I believe a Ukrainian pilot shot down an aircraft alleged to be MH 17. I've just heard that the aircraft may not in fact have been MH 17. Regardless, Russia certainly doesn't support the western conclusions as to who downed the aircraft alleged to be MH 17. The following RT article from May of this year gets into Russia's stance:

Moscow reacts to UN aviation agency’s MH17 vote

The investigation into the downing of MH17 was deeply flawed, Russia has said

www.rt.com

Are you serious

I am.

the Russians always deny this stuff

You may wish to look into why.

why the fuck anyone should believe...

I assume you meant to essentially say why should anyone believe the Russians. My answer is that the evidence for their position seems better. I looked into all of this in detail years ago. Unfortunately, as I mentioned elsewhere, the online forum where I did so is now gone and even the way back machine appears to not have been keeping track of it. From what I've read, the investigation into who shot down the plane alleged to be MH 17 was politically biased. A 2022 article from RT gets into details:
**
The Dutch court was “under unprecedented pressure” during the hearings, the Russian Foreign Ministry stated, commenting on the verdict. “There can be no talk of objectivity and impartiality under such circumstances,” it added, pointing to attempts by Dutch “politicians, prosecutors and media to impose a politically motivated verdict” in this case.

Moscow has made it clear that, in accordance with the country's constitution, it will not be extraditing its citizens.

The court’s decision was based on the conclusions of Dutch prosecutors, which, in turn, were built upon the accounts of anonymous witnesses and evidence presented by the Ukrainian Security Service, which is “an interested party” in the case, the ministry argued. Arguments presented by the Russian side, including data declassified by the Russian Defense Ministry were discarded, it added.

[snip]

Moscow and Kiev traded blame over the incident in the wake of the tragedy. A Joint Investigation Team that was tasked with investigating the crash included officials from Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, the Netherlands, and Ukraine but not Russia.

Russia’s Alamaz Antey, the producer of the Buk system, released its own analysis of the incident. The company concluded that the plane was shot down by an older version of the Buk missile, which was not used by Russia but remained in service in the Ukrainian military.
**

Full article:

MH17 verdict 'politically motivated' – Russia

The Dutch court’s decision in the MH17 case was taken under “unprecedented pressure” that made it into a “political put-up job,” Moscow said

www.rt.com

 

[serendipity]

I am.



You may wish to look into why.



I assume you meant to essentially say why should anyone believe the Russians. My answer is that the evidence for their position seems better. I looked into all of this in detail years ago. Unfortunately, as I mentioned elsewhere, the online forum where I did so is now gone and even the way back machine appears to not have been keeping track of it. From what I've read, the investigation into who shot down the plane alleged to be MH 17 was politically biased. A 2022 article from RT gets into details:
**
The Dutch court was “under unprecedented pressure” during the hearings, the Russian Foreign Ministry stated, commenting on the verdict. “There can be no talk of objectivity and impartiality under such circumstances,” it added, pointing to attempts by Dutch “politicians, prosecutors and media to impose a politically motivated verdict” in this case.

Moscow has made it clear that, in accordance with the country's constitution, it will not be extraditing its citizens.

The court’s decision was based on the conclusions of Dutch prosecutors, which, in turn, were built upon the accounts of anonymous witnesses and evidence presented by the Ukrainian Security Service, which is “an interested party” in the case, the ministry argued. Arguments presented by the Russian side, including data declassified by the Russian Defense Ministry were discarded, it added.

[snip]

Moscow and Kiev traded blame over the incident in the wake of the tragedy. A Joint Investigation Team that was tasked with investigating the crash included officials from Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, the Netherlands, and Ukraine but not Russia.

Russia’s Alamaz Antey, the producer of the Buk system, released its own analysis of the incident. The company concluded that the plane was shot down by an older version of the Buk missile, which was not used by Russia but remained in service in the Ukrainian military.
**

Full article:

MH17 verdict 'politically motivated' – Russia

The Dutch court’s decision in the MH17 case was taken under “unprecedented pressure” that made it into a “political put-up job,” Moscow said

www.rt.com

Sorry don't believe a word that comes from RT, it's mostly bullshit straight from Putin.

The editor of RT (formerly Russia Today), is Margarita Simonyan. She is the editor-in-chief of the state-controlled international television network. The US government has sanctioned her for her role in allegedly interfering in the 2024 US presidential election. She is often described as a top propagandist and ideologue for the Kremlin, according to BBC News.

 

[Scott]

I am.



You may wish to look into why.



I assume you meant to essentially say why should anyone believe the Russians. My answer is that the evidence for their position seems better. I looked into all of this in detail years ago. Unfortunately, as I mentioned elsewhere, the online forum where I did so is now gone and even the way back machine appears to not have been keeping track of it. From what I've read, the investigation into who shot down the plane alleged to be MH 17 was politically biased. A 2022 article from RT gets into details:
**
The Dutch court was “under unprecedented pressure” during the hearings, the Russian Foreign Ministry stated, commenting on the verdict. “There can be no talk of objectivity and impartiality under such circumstances,” it added, pointing to attempts by Dutch “politicians, prosecutors and media to impose a politically motivated verdict” in this case.

Moscow has made it clear that, in accordance with the country's constitution, it will not be extraditing its citizens.

The court’s decision was based on the conclusions of Dutch prosecutors, which, in turn, were built upon the accounts of anonymous witnesses and evidence presented by the Ukrainian Security Service, which is “an interested party” in the case, the ministry argued. Arguments presented by the Russian side, including data declassified by the Russian Defense Ministry were discarded, it added.

[snip]

Moscow and Kiev traded blame over the incident in the wake of the tragedy. A Joint Investigation Team that was tasked with investigating the crash included officials from Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, the Netherlands, and Ukraine but not Russia.

Russia’s Alamaz Antey, the producer of the Buk system, released its own analysis of the incident. The company concluded that the plane was shot down by an older version of the Buk missile, which was not used by Russia but remained in service in the Ukrainian military.
**

Full article:

MH17 verdict 'politically motivated' – Russia

The Dutch court’s decision in the MH17 case was taken under “unprecedented pressure” that made it into a “political put-up job,” Moscow said

www.rt.com

Sorry don't believe a word that comes from RT, it's mostly bullshit straight from Putin.

And you know this how?

The editor of RT (formerly Russia Today), is Margarita Simonyan. She is the editor-in-chief of the state-controlled international television network. The US government has sanctioned her for her role in allegedly interfering in the 2024 US presidential election.

I'd pay attention to the word "allegedly". Or are you saying that everything that the U.S. government does is always correct?

 

[T. A. Gardner]

I don't know if a plane fired a missile at all. Remember that the article I referenced was published back in 2014. After looking at some articles from RT, I found the following bit of information from an article published in 2022:
**
Russia’s Alamaz Antey, the producer of the Buk system, released its own analysis of the incident. The company concluded that the plane was shot down by an older version of the Buk missile, which was not used by Russia but remained in service in the Ukrainian military.
**

Source:

MH17 verdict 'politically motivated' – Russia

The Dutch court’s decision in the MH17 case was taken under “unprecedented pressure” that made it into a “political put-up job,” Moscow said

www.rt.com

I stated as much earlier. It was definitely a SAM. Who fired it is somewhat open to question. The Russians regularly use older military equipment in operational service. They have a long history of that. So, it could have been either side. I don't have a list or map of known SAM sites when that plane was shot down to check against. That'd be the next point to go to.