EXPERTS ARE PREDICTING AN ‘EXPLOSION’ OF INEXPENSIVE ELECTRIC CARS

[Into the Night]

Because some TRUMPTARDED IDIOT LIKE YOU say's so?

You are even more ignorant than QP!, ya dumb lizard.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

In Arizona, the more your car costs and is worth, the higher the price of registration is. Since EV's cost more, you pay more to register the vehicle here.

 

[Into the Night]

Oh we have lots of conservatards here mocking the idea that is even viable, let alone 'should' be produced.

Hallucination. No one has suggested anything of the sort.

I know many people who have had Tesla's for years, and who have cut their gasoline budget to near zero, each year, as they are the typical work and local commuters.

But you pay far more in maintenance, drive the car very little, still pay for electricity, pay more for insurance, and are constantly worrying about your next charge.

Currently AVERAGE annual gasoline costs per citizen across the US are $5000. Many people pay more than that.

Special pleading fallacies. Attempted proof by false equivocation.

Do you see any of the derps here figure that in to the cost calculation of owning an EV?

You are IGNORING the costs of owning an EV.

I have a good friend who is in his 8th year of driving only his two family Tesla's and he has not bought gasoline once in 8 years, other than when he says he travels and rents a car. That is ~$80,000 in savings that go directly to offset the cost of the purchase of the EV's.

So he has spent $120k more for his cars to save $80k. What a deal.

 

[Into the Night]

Gas cars can overheat when they're stuck in traffic. Not so with EVs.

Another WIN for EVs.

Cars only overheat due to a defect. Maintain your car.
EVs can overheat too. Indeed, some battery fires have started that way!

Your 'win' is a void.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

FLOL. at "I claim the experts are wrong".

Every time you speak you expose your massive ignorance of almost all topics.

Here you prove you have no clue how going from "Novel >>>>> Mass Production" works and how at the beginnings of that curve costs can go up, but over time they come way down."

You are just so incredibly ignorant compared to many of the others i think are trolling but you i think are just this stupid.


Think of the ICE journey to mass production. Do you think at any stage pre Mass production, costs were coming down? No one who made tires especially for cars. NO one who made engines specific to cars. No where to get gasoline on a cars typical journey.


As a result of mass production all of these improvements FOLLOWED, making every stage of ICE Auto ownership better, cheaper and more convenient.

You would look at all of that and call it 'magical thinking' that mass production would spawn all of those benefits for ICE vehicles and you would have argued against the "experts" telling them "you think they are wrong".

FLOL. I wish i thought you were trolling, like others here, but i believe you are the protype conservatard who just fights any and all advancement believing if you cannot prove something to be more profitable and practical today then you never go down that path.

If that were even true, then why did EV's, which existed before and concurrently with ICE vehicles, fail in the marketplace?

These are all early electric cars. The earliest in the photo was made in 1889 well before ICE vehicles came into production.

This is Edison's 1912 model. It is every bit equal to contemporary ICE cars of that year except it is battery powered.

So, what killed off the EV market in favor of ICE cars?

 

[QP!]

In Arizona, the more your car costs and is worth, the higher the price of registration is. Since EV's cost more, you pay more to register the vehicle here.

But oh ya...

Ok, the price of a KWH of electricity is slightly higher and the average cost of gas quite a bit higher, but that only makes my point stronger.

Especially since many EV drivers, can avoid almost all direct charging costs themselves, if they are the typical type, work to home to drive around town, type commuters.

 

[Lionfish]

You're welcome

Nope. Have not said or suggested that.


Why would i explain that to you? Have i commented on that?


i agree and have made that point. Great for some (typical city work commuter), but not great for all.
Same for ICE vehicles. Great for some and not great for all.


I don't control any of this so not sure who you are speaking to. Advancement is coming whether you like it or not, driven by a combination of Private company initiatives and gov't. The way MOST major new innovations enter the market. You can cry about that if you want, just don't expect me to care.

We agree on one thing, I don't give a shit and your ignoring the ancillary costs is an omission in your post that you deny.

We are done here.

 

[QP!]

If that were even true, then why did EV's, which existed before and concurrently with ICE vehicles, fail in the marketplace?

These are all early electric cars. The earliest in the photo was made in 1889 well before ICE vehicles came into production.

This is Edison's 1912 model. It is every bit equal to contemporary ICE cars of that year except it is battery powered.

So, what killed off the EV market in favor of ICE cars?

D'uh.

Again you speak on topics you know nothing about.

Let me educate you once again.

In a pre mass commercialization market and just building one of self sustained vehicle of course electric cars would make the most sense. Not many people can distill gasoline at home and access to it was very challenging.


However to scale in those early days, gasoline offered many advantages electric did not. You need a very robust FIRST to scale up, and even today with our very advanced grid, we know it needs many upgrades. Gasoline, once you have mass producers, seeking if for profit, is much easier to scale, into communities with much less infrastructure. And since that infrastructure is also profit driven (gas stations) you get private individuals to carry those early costs.


It is sad you keep trying to opine on topics you clearly have no clue about anything you speak to. Your base knowledge is about a zero and your opinions are at 10. In real life you must be a real treat, offering strong opinions on everything, especially things you know nothing about. Again very much like MTG. You would probably lecture a top brain surgeon about 'why you do not accept what the experts say' just before surgery based on something you read on the internet and did not comprehend. Sad.

 

[QP!]

We agree on one thing, I don't give a shit and your ignoring the ancillary costs is an omission in your post that you deny.

We are done here.

Move on child. Let the adults speak.

 

[Into the Night]

And the King Ranch has a range that far exceeds that.

He's not talking about range, dumbass.

So once again you prove stupid and need to learn from me.

Attempted proof by pivot.

And no one is saying 'charging is free', so stay on topic.

You are. That IS part of the topic.

It does however keep on average $5000 per year, per car in my friends pocket.

You just did it again! Are are AGAIN assuming charging is free.

Once again the argument is not that an EV will benefit everyone.

Then why is the government subsidizing and mandating them??

But for the vast, VAST majority of people who use their vehicles 80% of the time just going back and forth to work and for short trips within city limits, (groceries, etc), they will never need to public charge.

You don't get to speak for everyone. You only get to speak for you. Omniscience fallacy.

They charge at home or at work.

A lot of apartments have no place to charge an EV. Work charging stations are not available at all work sites. Indeed, they are rather rare.

Just like not everyone needs the expense of a King Ranch pick up.

Random phrase. No apparent coherency.

Most people are better suited with a small commuter ICE car to get back and forth to work.

You don't get to speak for everybody. You only get to speak for you. Omniscience fallacy.

If you do not create stupid strawman situations

You are describing yourself.

and look at the MASS part of the driving population

The mass part of the driving population is driving gasoline cars. Look at any freeway. Less than 1% of the cars on the road are EVs (except where mandated or heavily subsidized).

and what their daily commutes look like,

Bigotry. You cannot assume that everyone commutes the same distance as you do, nor commutes to a work site with a charging station, nor has a charging station at home.

an EV is perfect for that group,

You don't get to speak for everybody. Omniscience fallacy.

and the gas savings alone make these vehicles far more affordable over many years of ownership.

You are AGAIN ignoring the cost of electricity, the higher cost of maintenance, the higher cost of the car, the higher insurance costs, and of course the inconvenience of constantly worrying about your next charge.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

But oh ya...

Ok, the price of a KWH of electricity is slightly higher and the average cost of gas quite a bit higher, but that only makes my point stronger.

Especially since many EV drivers, can avoid almost all direct charging costs themselves, if they are the typical type, work to home to drive around town, type commuters.

https://azdot.gov/sites/default/files/2019/08/AZ-registration-fees.pdf

Look at the line "License Vehicle Tax (LVT)" There are examples shown below it.

As for charging costs:

This varies wildly. The range is a low of .08 cents to a high of about .27 cents per KWH.
https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicle...-cost-charging-electric-vehicle-united-states

There can also be fees associated with using a particular charging system

How Much Does It Cost To Charge an Electric Car?
https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-ev/

Bottom line: There isn't much difference between what an EV costs to charge over time compared to an ICE vehicle. It can even cost more if you are forced to use public charging stations regularly.

So, for people living in apartments or other multifamily housing, you could very easily be screwed on charging costs. Even if you own your home the installation of a charging station will run you thousands of dollars and could run over ten thousand depending on exactly what has to be done to your electric system to get it installed correctly. Older home with say an 60 or 80 amp panel? Well over ten thousand as you need a new panel and service drop to install the charger.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

D'uh.

Again you speak on topics you know nothing about.

Let me educate you once again.

In a pre mass commercialization market and just building one of self sustained vehicle of course electric cars would make the most sense. Not many people can distill gasoline at home and access to it was very challenging.


However to scale in those early days, gasoline offered many advantages electric did not. You need a very robust FIRST to scale up, and even today with our very advanced grid, we know it needs many upgrades. Gasoline, once you have mass producers, seeking if for profit, is much easier to scale, into communities with much less infrastructure. And since that infrastructure is also profit driven (gas stations) you get private individuals to carry those early costs.


It is sad you keep trying to opine on topics you clearly have no clue about anything you speak to. Your base knowledge is about a zero and your opinions are at 10. In real life you must be a real treat, offering strong opinions on everything, especially things you know nothing about. Again very much like MTG. You would probably lecture a top brain surgeon about 'why you do not accept what the experts say' just before surgery based on something you read on the internet and did not comprehend. Sad.

Some of those were production vehicles. They were produced in numbers contemporary to ICE vehicles of the same year. Ford and Edison even collaborated to produce an EV and it still failed to gain traction in the market. Edison even invented a better battery for his vehicles. It didn't help.

https://www.wired.com/2010/06/henry-ford-thomas-edison-ev/
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210223-the-battery-invented-120-years-too-soon

That's hardly the be-all and end-all of battery cars. They've been tried repeatedly since and each time they failed to gain market share. This time the ONLY thing driving them into the market is government fiat and bribes. Without government banning ICE cars outright and offering huge subsidies for buying an EV, few people would and they would have failed this time too.

Like I said, when this is all the government will let you buy, it's what you buy...

So, you are forced into getting a shitty car you don't want because government says that's all you deserve.
They were hardly the only ones making battery cars either. The EV simply didn't cut it in the marketplace on cost or convenience.

 

[QP!]

https://azdot.gov/sites/default/files/2019/08/AZ-registration-fees.pdf

Look at the line "License Vehicle Tax (LVT)" There are examples shown below it.

As for charging costs:

This varies wildly. The range is a low of .08 cents to a high of about .27 cents per KWH.
https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicle...-cost-charging-electric-vehicle-united-states

There can also be fees associated with using a particular charging system

How Much Does It Cost To Charge an Electric Car?
https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-ev/

Bottom line: There isn't much difference between what an EV costs to charge over time compared to an ICE vehicle. It can even cost more if you are forced to use public charging stations regularly.

So, for people living in apartments or other multifamily housing, you could very easily be screwed on charging costs. Even if you own your home the installation of a charging station will run you thousands of dollars and could run over ten thousand depending on exactly what has to be done to your electric system to get it installed correctly. Older home with say an 60 or 80 amp panel? Well over ten thousand as you need a new panel and service drop to install the charger.

You are missing the point. I would say deliberately but it is more likely out of ignorance.

Again, an EV will not suit EVERYONE. But for the vast, VAST majority of every day work commuters, who mostly only go back and forth and then to do groceries and other such things, they will NEVER to pay for a charging station unless they are breaking their routine to do a driving vacation or something similar.


So you can keep repeating all you want that SOME PEOPLE who use charging stations a lot may pay as much as ICE drivers do but that is stupid. You are being stupid.

You know who pays the high ICE costs all the time? All ICE drivers do. ALL OF THEM. There is no escaping that cost if you drive regular back and forth to work or other.


So to try and make your case you are trying to compare the outlier high cost EV driver with the every day ICE driver. And you know what that is right? It is stupid. You are being stupid.

 

[Lionfish]

Move on child. Let the adults speak.

The adults have already pointed out you have out punted your coverage.

 

[QP!]

Some of those were production vehicles. They were produced in numbers contemporary to ICE vehicles of the same year. Ford and Edison even collaborated to produce an EV and it still failed to gain traction in the market. Edison even invented a better battery for his vehicles. It didn't help.

https://www.wired.com/2010/06/henry-ford-thomas-edison-ev/
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210223-the-battery-invented-120-years-too-soon

That's hardly the be-all and end-all of battery cars. They've been tried repeatedly since and each time they failed to gain market share. This time the ONLY thing driving them into the market is government fiat and bribes. Without government banning ICE cars outright and offering huge subsidies for buying an EV, few people would and they would have failed this time too.

Like I said, when this is all the government will let you buy, it's what you buy...

So, you are forced into getting a shitty car you don't want because government says that's all you deserve.
They were hardly the only ones making battery cars either. The EV simply didn't cut it in the marketplace on cost or convenience.

Again not hard to understand if a person is not stupid.

You know why you struggle to understand this even as it is explained to you? Because you are stupid.

Once again as infrastrastructure and roads and interstates, etc, started to develop, and gasoline refining became more efficient and very profitable, there simply was no way EV's could match the roll out. A Nation wide energy grid, requires government will and investment, and is slow and cumbersome to build out. An oil and gas infrastructure based on enormously profitable refiners and retailers will self propagate and grows with no resistance.

Your answer has far less to do with auto technology then it does an ability to service the emerging market at scale.

Even today you, yes YOU, would argue we do not have the infrastructure to manage every auto being an EV and yet in your stupidity you cannot apply that same logic to back then.

Why do you think you are so stupid you cannot make that connection and i have to keep explaining it to you?


What that DOES NOT mean is that the core base technology is inferior. It means the ability to service it back then was and even today still is. But as that changes and gov't upgrades their girds, and sources of electricity, all that can change.

 

[Into the Night]

But oh ya...

Ok, the price of a KWH of electricity is slightly higher and the average cost of gas quite a bit higher, but that only makes my point stronger.

Especially since many EV drivers, can avoid almost all direct charging costs themselves, if they are the typical type, work to home to drive around town, type commuters.

You completely ignored the Arizona Vehicle License Tax, part of the cost of registering a car in Arizona.
A modern gasoline car gets approx 30 mpg, not 12.
The average cost per kWh at a level 2 charging station is around $0.25, not $0.14.

For a 126 mile trip, I will use about 4 gallons, or about $20. After that trip, I don't need to fill up my tank. I can continue to drive for another 380 miles, then spend about 3-5 minutes refueling the car for another 400 miles.
For the same trip with an EV equipped with a 150mJ battery (giving the vehicle a range of about 150 miles in ideal conditions or about 100 miles in winter conditions), the EV can only complete the trip without recharging in ideal conditions. Charging will cost about $7.50 and require approximately and hour or so to do it, using a level 2 charger.

I have a range of 400 miles before refueling with only takes minutes, giving an effective range of infinite (ignoring maintenance).
You have a range of 150 miles in ideal conditions and charging takes an hour.

I can commute with my car and not have to charge it or refuel it at all either at work or at home, until I have commuted many times.
You are worrying about charging your car every day for commuting purposes.

I can and do maintain and fix my own cars using commonly available tools.
You can't.

I can drive off road or on rough forest roads with no problem.
You can't.

I get free heat and defrosting in the cabin of my car in winter.
You don't.

I can drive my car for decades and decades.
You can't.

I can drive across country without stopping more than a few minutes every few hundred miles by exchanging drivers.
You can't.

I can tow.
You can't.

I pay for the roads both of us drive on through gasoline taxes.
You don't.

I can fly my own plane using an internal combustion engine.
There is no practical EV airplane.

I have no problem with semi-trucks delivering goods and services, making shopping at grocery stores, hardware stores, sundry stores, and even Amazone even possible
You want to ban them. There are no practical EV semi-trucks.

I have no problem with farmers and ranchers using their tractors and farm equipment to provide food and other raw materials.
You want to ban them. There are no practical EV tractors or farm equipment.

I have no problem with construction guys using their tractors, backhoes, trucks, etc. to build and maintain roads, houses, buildings, electrical systems, water supply systems, sewer systems, communications systems, etc.
You want to ban them. There is no practical EV replacement for their needs.

You are fucking clueless.

 

[Into the Night]

Again not hard to understand if a person is not stupid.

You know why you struggle to understand this even as it is explained to you? Because you are stupid.

Once again as infrastrastructure and roads and interstates, etc, started to develop, and gasoline refining became more efficient and very profitable, there simply was no way EV's could match the roll out. A Nation wide energy grid, requires government will and investment, and is slow and cumbersome to build out. An oil and gas infrastructure based on enormously profitable refiners and retailers will self propagate and grows with no resistance.

Your answer has far less to do with auto technology then it does an ability to service the emerging market at scale.

Even today you, yes YOU, would argue we do not have the infrastructure to manage every auto being an EV and yet in your stupidity you cannot apply that same logic to back then.

Why do you think you are so stupid you cannot make that connection and i have to keep explaining it to you?


What that DOES NOT mean is that the core base technology is inferior. It means the ability to service it back then was and even today still is. But as that changes and gov't upgrades their girds, and sources of electricity, all that can change.

You are ignoring history completely.
Communism doesn't work.
Fascism doesn't work.
Price controls do not work.
Interfering with automotive markets with mandates is fascism.
Subsidizing EVs is communism.

The electrical grid is NOT a source of electricity. TANSTAAFL.
There is no National Electrical Grid nor will there be.
Roads existed long before either the EV or the gasoline car.

The EV is not an advancement.

 

[Nordberg]

If that were even true, then why did EV's, which existed before and concurrently with ICE vehicles, fail in the marketplace?

These are all early electric cars. The earliest in the photo was made in 1889 well before ICE vehicles came into production.

This is Edison's 1912 model. It is every bit equal to contemporary ICE cars of that year except it is battery powered.

So, what killed off the EV market in favor of ICE cars?

At that time, gas was plentiful and cheap. We had no knowledge of pollution problems. Now that is not true.

 

[Lionfish]

At that time, gas was plentiful and cheap. We had no knowledge of pollution problems. Now that is not true.

Why did the market leave Edison's EV and move on to ICE?

 

[QP!]

At that time, gas was plentiful and cheap. We had no knowledge of pollution problems. Now that is not true.

And gas was PORTABLE. You could pop up a gas station very easy.

Take a close look at the pictures she posted and you will notice a lack of power lines criss crossing the country.


So when you come to the question of why did the ICE vehicle move to mass production and the EV did not, a smart person does not struggle with that question.

Pre mass production and just building in a very isolated way before gas was becoming abundant, building an EV that would run off existing batteries or a car that ran off ethanol would have been the ideal. A do it yourself type vehicle.

BUt a person with a functioning brain understands that changes instantly as mass production is coming in. It in no signifies the ICE vehicle was superior to the EV. It only signals the ICE vehicle had an easy way to get the needed power to make it drive as network of private gas stations could just pop up on road ways and highways across the world.