Why EV's suck on energy efficiency

[T. A. Gardner]

While Capitalist Joe (an oxymoron given his posts) is afraid to openly debate this by banning those from his threads that would, I'm not. Here's a visual comparison on why EV's suck on efficiency.

This video explains in a simple and visual way why EV's are often a poor choice as a vehicle. It also explains why they are not particularly more efficient at, well, virtually anything, over ICE vehicles.

So, if you believe AlGore, high priest of Gorebal Warming that if you don't buy an EV you're going to die in a human created furnace, by all means buy an EV. Just don't force the fucked up things on the rest of us.

It's also insane to celebrate totalitarian, authoritarian, and fascist government edicts forcing people to buy EV's. Anyone with a reasonable desire for freedom of choice would oppose such government dicktats.

 

[ExpressLane]

While Capitalist Joe (an oxymoron given his posts) is afraid to openly debate this by banning those from his threads that would, I'm not. Here's a visual comparison on why EV's suck on efficiency.

This video explains in a simple and visual way why EV's are often a poor choice as a vehicle. It also explains why they are not particularly more efficient at, well, virtually anything, over ICE vehicles.

So, if you believe AlGore, high priest of Gorebal Warming that if you don't buy an EV you're going to die in a human created furnace, by all means buy an EV. Just don't force the fucked up things on the rest of us.

It's also insane to celebrate totalitarian, authoritarian, and fascist government edicts forcing people to buy EV's. Anyone with a reasonable desire for freedom of choice would oppose such government dicktats.

They are great for virtue signaling.

 

[Nordberg]

A lie a day keep the ICEs away.

 

[Celticguy]

If you live in a temperate area and mainly toodle around town or commute to work and need a nice looking late model ride, they can be an effective choice.

If you live in hot or cold areas it becomes less so and will require that you have a garage.

If you travel it starts to become a worse idea. The more you travel, the worse it gets.

If you need hauling ability again it becomes less effective.

 

[serendipity]

A lie a day keep the ICEs away.

Hydrogen powered ICE and FCEV cars will blow BEVs away.

 

[serendipity]

While Capitalist Joe (an oxymoron given his posts) is afraid to openly debate this by banning those from his threads that would, I'm not. Here's a visual comparison on why EV's suck on efficiency.

This video explains in a simple and visual way why EV's are often a poor choice as a vehicle. It also explains why they are not particularly more efficient at, well, virtually anything, over ICE vehicles.

So, if you believe AlGore, high priest of Gorebal Warming that if you don't buy an EV you're going to die in a human created furnace, by all means buy an EV. Just don't force the fucked up things on the rest of us.

It's also insane to celebrate totalitarian, authoritarian, and fascist government edicts forcing people to buy EV's. Anyone with a reasonable desire for freedom of choice would oppose such government dicktats.

He is also a plagiarist!

https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...old-in-2022-Open-thread&p=5477168#post5477168

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Hydrogen powered ICE and FCEV cars will blow BEVs away.

Anhydrous ammonia fuel is another alternative that works. It was first used widely in Belgium during WW 2 during the German occupation because gasoline was unavailable. The Brussels public transit system ran all their busses on it converting extant ICE engines to use it. In a fuel cell it is more efficient.

So, the myopic view that batteries are it and the future are exactly that, a myopic and dead end view of the future of personal transportation.

 

[Hawkeye10]

If you live in a temperate area and mainly toodle around town or commute to work and need a nice looking late model ride, they can be an effective choice.

If you live in hot or cold areas it becomes less so and will require that you have a garage.

If you travel it starts to become a worse idea. The more you travel, the worse it gets.

If you need hauling ability again it becomes less effective.

Our overlords clearly dont care. Going forwards most people wont even be able to have cars under their plans. You might be able to call a car if your social credit score is good enough but mostly you will walk or ride a bike or something like that. Some people say that OneWheels are nice.

 

[Earl]

40-50 hours
Level 1 chargers can take 40-50 hours to charge a battery electric vehicle (BEV) from empty and 5-6 hours to charge a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) from empty.Feb 2, 2022

You come home from work on Monday and have to wait til Wed. for your car battery to be charged.

evconnect.com

 

[Althea]

While Capitalist Joe (an oxymoron given his posts) is afraid to openly debate this by banning those from his threads that would, I'm not. Here's a visual comparison on why EV's suck on efficiency.

This video explains in a simple and visual way why EV's are often a poor choice as a vehicle. It also explains why they are not particularly more efficient at, well, virtually anything, over ICE vehicles.

So, if you believe AlGore, high priest of Gorebal Warming that if you don't buy an EV you're going to die in a human created furnace, by all means buy an EV. Just don't force the fucked up things on the rest of us.

It's also insane to celebrate totalitarian, authoritarian, and fascist government edicts forcing people to buy EV's. Anyone with a reasonable desire for freedom of choice would oppose such government dicktats.

Uh huh

The chief of the world’s largest oil company is worried about global crude supplies.
Current market dynamics — such as China’s slowdown and an aviation sector that is still recovering from the Covid-19 pandemic — have kept demand relatively subdued, but that is set to change soon. Saudi Aramco CEO Amin Nasser fears the world won’t have enough spare capacity to deal with that shift.





“For crude oil, we are in a situation where there is a spare capacity that is helping to mitigate interruptions,” Nasser told CNBC’s Hadley Gamble. “However, I am not so sure about the mid-to-long term, because as the spare capacity erodes, we will not be having the capability to mitigate any short or long term interruptions like what happened with Russia-Ukraine crisis.

”

 

[Walt]

Why EV's suck on energy efficiency

Maybe later in the video he switched to something about energy efficiency, but for the first 3 minutes all he talked about was energy volume efficiency. That is kind of important, but is very different than energy efficiency.

An ICE engine needs to be running all the time, even when it is not needed, which is a massive energy inefficiency. It also has built into it lots of friction, which is another inefficiency. It is not that hard to get an electric motor to be 90% efficient, where it is virtually impossible to get a combustion engine to 50% efficiency without combining it with an electric motor.

So a modern diesel locomotive gets slightly above 50% efficiency, because the diesel engine runs at one speed, charging batteries that run an electric motor that actually moves the train. Electric only trains are even more efficient because you eliminate the friction of the diesel engine.

He is right that, currently, gasoline has better volume efficiency than batteries.

 

[serendipity]

Maybe later in the video he switched to something about energy efficiency, but for the first 3 minutes all he talked about was energy volume efficiency. That is kind of important, but is very different than energy efficiency.

An ICE engine needs to be running all the time, even when it is not needed, which is a massive energy inefficiency. It also has built into it lots of friction, which is another inefficiency. It is not that hard to get an electric motor to be 90% efficient, where it is virtually impossible to get a combustion engine to 50% efficiency without combining it with an electric motor.

So a modern diesel locomotive gets slightly above 50% efficiency, because the diesel engine runs at one speed, charging batteries that run an electric motor that actually moves the train. Electric only trains are even more efficient because you eliminate the friction of the diesel engine.

He is right that, currently, gasoline has better volume efficiency than batteries.

More bullshit Salty, Volkswagens have a start/stop system that stop if waiting at traffic lights or in a huge jam.

https://www.findlayvw.com/what-does-the-volkswagen-start-stop-system-do/

 

[serendipity]

Anhydrous ammonia fuel is another alternative that works. It was first used widely in Belgium during WW 2 during the German occupation because gasoline was unavailable. The Brussels public transit system ran all their busses on it converting extant ICE engines to use it. In a fuel cell it is more efficient.

So, the myopic view that batteries are it and the future are exactly that, a myopic and dead end view of the future of personal transportation.

Yes that's true as with many other applications throughout history.

https://www.nh3fuel.com/index.php/f...prising-details-about-using-ammonia-as-a-fuel

 

[Into the Night]

A lie a day keep the ICEs away.

You lie a lot, and it does nothing to keep the ICEs away, so obviously you are lying AGAIN.

 

[Into the Night]

If you live in a temperate area and mainly toodle around town or commute to work and need a nice looking late model ride, they can be an effective choice.

IF you also have a home (and probably garage) to charge it.

If you live in hot or cold areas it becomes less so and will require that you have a garage.

The garage is already basically required to be practical on any level, so this is superfluous.

If you travel it starts to become a worse idea. The more you travel, the worse it gets.

Quite right. The more you travel, the more you will have to stay in many hotels because your car needs charging, which takes a significant amount of time out of your travel time.

If you need hauling ability again it becomes less effective.

Quite right. Batteries are heavy, even Li-ion batteries. That's useful load you don't get.

Ever wonder why there are no practical electric airplanes? The same thing affects cars and trucks.

It's all about power to weight ratio and useful load capacity.

 

[BartenderElite]

Computers weren't practical for personal use for decades. And stuff like that.

 

[Into the Night]

Hydrogen powered ICE and FCEV cars will blow BEVs away.

Probably not. Hydrogen is even more problematic than a battery vehicle is.
* You have to make the hydrogen, a LOT of it. That takes a lot of energy. Hydrogen that is sold today is made by fractioning a hydrocarbon, which creates CO2. You know...that DANGEROUS GAS that somehow manages to violate the 1st and 2nd law of thermodynamics and the Stefan-Boltzmann law.
* You have to compress the hydrogen for transport or storage in the car. That takes energy too.
* Compressed hydrogen causes hydrogen embrittlement in the tanks, making them unsafe. Tanks will have to be inspected by hydrostatic testing approx once each year. ANY corrosion is also a problem. That's 3000psi of flammable gas you're dealing with!
* Even when compressed, energy density is quite low. Hydrogen is a bulky fuel.
* Whether the hydrogen is burned in a reciprocating engine or used in a fuel makes no difference.
* Fuel cells require a large battery ballast.
* Fuel cells require the use of iridium and platinum to manufacture. Two rare and expensive materials. If you think the lithium shortage caused by large numbers of EVs is going to be a problem, you ain't seen nothin' yet!
* Fueling hydrogen cars can easily take up to 30 minutes. The nozzle freezes to the vehicle while fueling, and it takes a good 30 minutes oftentimes to thaw.

Nah. Oil is a naturally occurring resource. It is easy to distill it into gasoline, kerosene, diesel fuel, and many other useful fuels and products. Gasoline has the highest energy density by volume.

Gasoline cars are cheap, easy to fix when required, are just as reliable when new as any EV. They don't require a lot of energy to manufacture the fuel for them. There are fewer conversions of energy, saving losses. Heck...it's quite possible to pick up a used gasoline powered car for cheap (or even free!), fix it up (a couple of thousand, maybe), and sell it for PROFIT. They can tow and carry large useful loads, since the fuel itself is a very minor part of the vehicle weight (20 gallons only weighs about 120 pounds!).

Today's FADEC engines are very reliable. There is no tune-up required. There are no points to adjust or replace. There are no high voltage ignition wires anymore. A few simple sensors are all that's required to run the engine. The rest is fuel trim or to provide better information if something fails. Those sensors are very reliable. I rarely have to replace any of them.

Sure, you have to replace the engine oil every few thousand miles (I recommend synthetic for everything now, except aircraft and some ship engines), and that procedure is simple. Anyone can do it. You can even drive to a local oil change shop and have them do it. It's not a problem. Anyone complaining about this simple procedure is just whining.

EV motors are oil cooled, like transmission oil, they don't need changing unless a problem develops in the device. Automatic transmissions should be changed occasionally (see your service interval for it). This is due to the friction surfaces in a typical automatic transmission. The friction surfaces are very good. They take a LONG time to wear, unless you are abusing the transmission.

Transmission oil in EVs has no friction surfaces. Just gears. That oil doesn't need to be changed unless a problem develops.

Battery coolant does need to be changed. It can plug and corrode like any coolant. Liquid coolant used in gasoline engines should be changed more frequently due to galvanic corrosion between various metals in the engine.

All rubber components should be checked each year. This is just as true for the EV as it is for the gasoline car. Look for cracking, UV damage, heat damage, and that all adhesives used (if any) remains secure.

All cars require regular maintenance of the body and tires. UV, dirt, grime, and road hazards are hard on all of these parts. Brakes should be serviced when shoes are worn. EVs, although they have regenerative braking, DO wear out their brakes at about the same rate, since the car is heavier.

Hydrogen cars are certainly lighter than EVs, but the problems with making and handling the hydrogen just don't cut it.

 

[Into the Night]

Anhydrous ammonia fuel is another alternative that works. It was first used widely in Belgium during WW 2 during the German occupation because gasoline was unavailable. The Brussels public transit system ran all their busses on it converting extant ICE engines to use it. In a fuel cell it is more efficient.

So, the myopic view that batteries are it and the future are exactly that, a myopic and dead end view of the future of personal transportation.

Fuel cells require a large battery pack to ballast the electrical load.

Now let's look at ammonia as a fuel, either in a reciprocating engine or in a fuel cell.

This fuel is extremely toxic and dangerous. Like hydrogen, it too must be manufactured. It is manufactured from hydrogen (which also must be manufactured). The Haber-Bosch process, which is used to make ammonia, fixates nitrogen from the air using hydrogen. All you are doing is adding another step beyond that required for hydrogen cars.

This process is used to make much of the fertilizer we use today. The hydrogen used to make ammonia is generally obtained from hydrocarbons, leaving CO2 as the waste product. Why not just use the hydrocarbons as the fuel instead of mucking about in all that excess chemistry?

 

[Into the Night]

Computers weren't practical for personal use for decades. And stuff like that.

A computer isn't a car.

Ya canna' change the laws of physics, cap'n.
Li-ion batteries are the lightest batteries we can make. Batteries made from any other metals are going to be heavier. Li-ion batteries have a very low internal resistance, making them ideal for EVs.
This type of battery is ideal for lightweight portable devices too.
Speaking of computers, many of them use a real time clock chip (which also incorporates a bit of memory for general use). These typically hold the BIOS settings in PC. These chips have an extremely low current requirement, and can be powered with a simple Li-ion coin battery for several years. When the system is plugged in, the RTC chip draws power from the lines, saving the battery. Desktop PCs and many remote controls tend to favor the CR2032 battery, easily available at your local grocery or drug store. Many other devices, such as cell phones, laptops, game console controllers (such as Nintendo Switch Joycons), make use of a custom flat pack Li-ion battery. These must be special ordered to replace them, and they are basically not designed to be replaced easily. Other game controllers just stick to replaceable AA alkaline 'dry' cells, such as the Nintendo WiiMote or the battery powered Xbox controllers (the Nintendo WiiU controller uses a custom flatpack). The consoles themselves generally use custom flatpacks.

Li-ion batteries are, of course, rechargeable, unlike the Li-metal batteries (which aren't used much anymore due to their extreme fire hazard characteristics).

Li-ion batteries are not easily recycled. That process requires special equipment and hazardous materials (such as strong acids) to do it.
Lead acid batteries typically the starter battery found in gasoline and diesel cars is VERY recyclable. The plastic casing is chewed into recycled plastic to make new cases, the lead is melted down to make new plates, and the only waste product is a weak sulfuric acid (easily neutralized by a weak alkaline such as sodium bicarbonate then discarded as a useless salt), and the sulfur (usually it's discarded as a sulfate salt).

Even most of the entire gasoline car is easily recyclable. Not so with EVs.

I am always amused by the 'future of technology' chant from EV enthusiasts. EV's were around a long time BEFORE gasoline cars became popular!
The thing that always kills the EV is cost and performance. Like any fad, this one appears from time to time and makes a big splash, only to fade away again.

 

[Into the Night]

Our overlords clearly dont care. Going forwards most people wont even be able to have cars under their plans. You might be able to call a car if your social credit score is good enough but mostly you will walk or ride a bike or something like that. Some people say that OneWheels are nice.

Fortunately, such 'overlords' have no power to stop people from driving and making cars.
It's just too easy for another car company to come along to satisfy the market.