Democrats and Rural Voters

[cawacko]

You endorse and parrot the BS of Alex Jones, Fox News, Mike Savage and the like, then support a bigoted con man like Trump and you don't think you're deplorable?

So lying is what, revenge? GMAFB!

Did you respond to the wrong person?

 

[Taichiliberal]

As someone raised in the country I can tell you right now that reason rural folk don’t vote Democrat is because Democrats have done little to nothing for rural folks. Not economically or in a civic manner.

It’s a simple as that. The Democratic Party is dismissive of rural folk. View them as ignorant and uninformed, even when the rural person is better educated than they are.

All of the Democrats big plans for economic growth are centered disproportionately in urban areas with little thought or care for rural and small town economic development Which is not an entirely false situation. It’s pretty alienating when poor rural white folk are told they are cause of others problems when in truth all they’ve ever done was bust their ass to provide for their family and coming up short on their hopes and dreams. Democratic identity politics is has also shown that Democrats place rural and working class white guys as people to be despised and ridiculed as opposed to the reality that they largely built this country with their productive abilities.

There are all sorts of ways Democrats have shown rural and working class people they don’t give a shit about them.

That the Republicans don’t really give a shit about them is manifestly obvious from an economic standpoint. Yet Republicans are at least respectful towards them and stand by them on mostly on social issue.

Democrats are also naive to the point of obtuseness that issues of high importance in urban areas often have little significance in rural areas. The opposite may also be true but those are issues to be discussed and reasoned over and not dismissed out of hand.

Right now the Democratic Party is not the big tent party it used to be. The Democratic Party has become the Party of the Educated allied to diversity and white working class men ain’t welcome.

So that’s why they don’t identify with Democrats. Democrats claims to be the party of the working class but have stood by like pussies while Republicans exploit them economically into a minimum wage serfdom while Democrats have been to weak to put up a fight for them.

In the last 50 years productivity in our nation has exploded while the standard of living for working and middle class folks has not and is declining. Now though this has been undoubtedly caused by Republican policies the fact that Democrats have been so weak and ineffectual to change this trend for over 50 years does not inspire confidence.

If Democrats want to win these voters they need to make some serious changes.

What they mostly need to do is go out into rural communities and start competing with Republicans find out what their needs are an then actually do something for them.

Till that happens Democrats are just blowing smoke when they talk about rural and working class folk. They are tired of talk and want results that improve their life’s. There has been damned few meaningful results by Democrats in the last 50 years.m

Ralph Nader and to a lesser degree Bernie Sanders.

Alternatives that were cheated by both parties.

Until this country stops BS'ing and take to the streets when the 2 Party system prevents 3rd parties from reaching prominence, this political tennis match will continue.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
You endorse and parrot the BS of Alex Jones, Fox News, Mike Savage and the like, then support a bigoted con man like Trump and you don't think you're deplorable?

So lying is what, revenge? GMAFB!

Did you respond to the wrong person?

Sorry. Just substitute "you" with "people" and "they" where appropriate.

 

[RB 60]

Remember, these were the jokers who bought and sold the BS about Iraq hook, line & sinker.

Here are the Democratic Senators who voted YEA on October 2002 FOR the Iraq war.

Baucus (D-MT), Yea
Bayh (D-IN), Yea
Biden (D-DE), Yea**
Breaux (D-LA), Yea
Cantwell (D-WA), Yea
Carnahan (D-MO), Yea
Carper (D-DE), Yea
Cleland (D-GA), Yea
Clinton (D-NY), Yea
Daschle (D-SD), Yea
Dodd (D-CT), Yea
Dorgan (D-ND), Yea
Edwards (D-NC), Yea
Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Harkin (D-IA), Yea
Hollings (D-SC), Yea
Johnson (D-SD), Yea
Kerry (D-MA), Yea
Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Landrieu (D-LA), Yea
Lieberman (D-CT), Yea
Lincoln (D-AR), Yea
Miller (D-GA), Yea
Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Reid (D-NV), Yea
Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
Schumer (D-NY), Yea
Torricelli (D-NJ), Yea


Hook line and sinker? Hmmm...

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Agree. I live in a rural area of a Blue state. Some pretty dumb individuals around here that simply parrot Fox talking points with absolutely no knowledge of any hot button issue.

Even intelligent RWers do that now. Sadly they moved away a couple years ago, but one of our neighbors was a retired career military guy who then worked another 20 years doing govt. security. His wife is from Germany; they met on one of his sojourns there. As you can guess they were super conservative. When we visited them they always had Fox on. We avoid talking politics with any of the neighbors unless they bring it up. He did. One of the things that I recall was his anger over the closing of the coal-burning plants here in Marquette, and the transition to NG, solar, and wind. (We already have hydro.) He insisted that coal was the cheapest, cleanest alternative and that it was liberals and the EPA that were killing it. He had absolutely no idea that coal had been on its way out due to market forces rather than regulation.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
Remember, these were the jokers who bought and sold the BS about Iraq hook, line & sinker.

Here are the Democratic Senators who voted YEA on October 2002 FOR the Iraq war.

Baucus (D-MT), Yea
Bayh (D-IN), Yea
Biden (D-DE), Yea**
Breaux (D-LA), Yea
Cantwell (D-WA), Yea
Carnahan (D-MO), Yea
Carper (D-DE), Yea
Cleland (D-GA), Yea
Clinton (D-NY), Yea
Daschle (D-SD), Yea
Dodd (D-CT), Yea
Dorgan (D-ND), Yea
Edwards (D-NC), Yea
Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Harkin (D-IA), Yea
Hollings (D-SC), Yea
Johnson (D-SD), Yea
Kerry (D-MA), Yea
Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Landrieu (D-LA), Yea
Lieberman (D-CT), Yea
Lincoln (D-AR), Yea
Miller (D-GA), Yea
Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Reid (D-NV), Yea
Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
Schumer (D-NY), Yea
Torricelli (D-NJ), Yea


Hook line and sinker? Hmmm...

Yep....The Shrub' White House fabricated the lies, the NYT's sold the lies and while about ALL the GOP Senators bought it, only about 29/48 Dems bought it.

What's your point?

 

[Althea]

Even intelligent RWers do that now. Sadly they moved away a couple years ago, but one of our neighbors was a retired career military guy who then worked another 20 years doing govt. security. His wife is from Germany; they met on one of his sojourns there. As you can guess they were super conservative. When we visited them they always had Fox on. We avoid talking politics with any of the neighbors unless they bring it up. He did. One of the things that I recall was his anger over the closing of the coal-burning plants here in Marquette, and the transition to NG, solar, and wind. (We already have hydro.) He insisted that coal was the cheapest, cleanest alternative and that it was liberals and the EPA that were killing it. He had absolutely no idea that coal had been on its way out due to market forces rather than regulation.

A lot of my neighbors are very similar, but I'm not the type to invite them in for coffee. Any neighbors, for that matter.

I have plenty of clients who are exactly as you describe. I avoid reacting to their comments that I assume are meant as a secret password to see if I'm in the club. Funny...because they all think I'm the best thing since sliced bread as I give them a tricked out new kitchen or bathroom.

If only they knew that I think they're foolish for making childish comments.

Or that I smoke weed to sleep at night

 

[Althea]

Yep....The Shrub' White House fabricated the lies, the NYT's sold the lies and while about ALL the GOP Senators bought it, only about 29/48 Dems bought it.

What's your point?

I don't see 60's posts, but you might want to remind him about the War Powers Resolution, and what it does and does NOT certify

 

[Althea]

Maybe sales tax, but they steal Social Security numbers to be able to work, derp!

Meanwhile, they get section 8 housing and free food from the government.

Double boost my ass! They take food directly off of Americans' tables.

I see you're drunk in the morning again.

Under Bush, immigrant workers were allowed to get SSI numbers so that FICA can be deducted legally. They never collect SS because they are not legal immigrants.

The nonsense about Section 8 is just that. Nonsense.

 

[Althea]

For those who have so little going for them as employees that they can be out-competed by someone who doesn't speak English and only had the benefit of a third-world education, workers of that sort can depress wages. The solution, though, isn't to protect the uneducated and unskilled from competition, but rather to help them gain more education and skills.

On this point, I have to agree with the drunk. It can be argued that unions drove up the cost of labor even in non union crews. It is more common to see a crew of immigrants running around a roof of a house than it is Americans. They work fast, and cheaply. It's always an American who owns the business, and these companies should be shunned.

But you cannot argue with a 25% discount on the price.


Unfortunately, these crews are incompetent and should not be doing anything other than roofs. This is a situation where American workers don't need 'more education and skills'. It's cheap competition, which is why we have no manufacturing here anymore

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

A lot of my neighbors are very similar, but I'm not the type to invite them in for coffee. Any neighbors, for that matter.

I have plenty of clients who are exactly as you describe. I avoid reacting to their comments that I assume are meant as a secret password to see if I'm in the club. Funny...because they all think I'm the best thing since sliced bread as I give them a tricked out new kitchen or bathroom.

If only they knew that I think they're foolish for making childish comments.

Or that I smoke weed to sleep at night

Agree with you on the "secret code." That's exactly what it is. How do you handle it? I just smile and say something like "Oh, hadn't heard that," or just change the subject.

 

[Althea]

It used to be high school kids and blacks picking watermelons in the summer. Not illegal immigrants.

Not only do they depress wages, but they suck up social services as well; Hospitals, schools, housing, low-income benefits and free food from Uncle Sugar.

They're a double drain on the economy, and many send the money they make out of the country.

Nothing is stopping high school kids and 'blacks' from performing those jobs.

 

[martin]

The NYT has an article called "What Democrats Don’t Understand About Rural America" looking at why Democrats are failing to win with rural voters:

In the story, a rural woman in Maine said that she'd been
undecided between Clinton and Trump until Election Day but voted for Trump because, at the Republican convention, he talked about regular American working people and Clinton didn’t at her convention.

So, is that true?

We have the transcripts telling us exactly what each candidate said at the convention. Clinton spoke of "working people" four times, Trump once. For Trump, it was a one-liner about how his (slum-lord) father taught him to respect working people. For Clinton, those four references were part of the main section of her speech, which served as its central theme, talking about the struggles of working people and what the government could do to help:

"I’ve gone around our country talking to working families. And I’ve heard from so many of you who feel like the economy just isn’t working. Some of you are frustrated – even furious. And you know what??? You’re right. It’s not yet working the way it should. Americans are willing to work – and work hard. But right now, an awful lot of people feel there is less and less respect for the work they do. And less respect for them, period. Democrats are the party of working people. But we haven’t done a good enough job showing that we get what you’re going through, and that we’re going to do something about it. So I want to tell you tonight how we will empower Americans to live better lives. My primary mission as President will be to create more opportunity and more good jobs with rising wages right here in the United States… From my first day in office to my last! Especially in places that for too long have been left out and left behind. From our inner cities to our small towns, from Indian Country to Coal Country. From communities ravaged by addiction to regions hollowed out by plant closures..... Whatever party you belong to, or if you belong to no party at all, if you share these beliefs, this is your campaign. If you believe that companies should share profits with their workers, not pad executive bonuses, join us. If you believe the minimum wage should be a living wage… and no one working full time should have to raise their children in poverty… join us. If you believe that every man, woman, and child in America has the right to affordable health care…join us.... And yes, if you believe that your working mother, wife, sister, or daughter deserves equal pay… join us… Let’s make sure this economy works for everyone, not just those at the top.

Again and again she spoke about working people -- her own mother working as a house maid at age 14, hard-working immigrants, those with hopes of starting a small business who can't get bank loans to finance their dreams, and the working people Trump had stiffed over the years, as he regularly refused to pay his bills in full, forcing contractors to negotiate or litigate to get paid what he owed them. Then she went through a long list of specific plans, all built around the needs of working people.

Trump, by comparison, was five pages into his speech before he even got around to talking about jobs. His speech focused first and most on "violence in the streets and chaos in our communities." Time and again, it was about "terrorism and lawlessness." His promises were focused not around economic ideas for working people, but rather "appointing the best prosecutors and law enforcement," while fighting immigration.

So, I think we can say with confidence that the interviewed rural woman was lying about why she chose to vote for Trump. As a simple matter of FACT, Hillary Clinton spoke far more extensively about working people than Trump did. Trump ran on fear -- fear of Black people running wild in inner cities, fear of Hispanic immigrants, and fear of Muslim terrorists. Fear of the unfamiliar was the core theme of his speech, and that's what won over the rural voters.

Right, and the idea that a majority of voters, or even a significant number of them, make up their minds from a convention speech is ridiculous. As you suggest, fear and prejudice were Trump's calling cards, and it didn't hurt that he could make being crass look respectable.

 

[Althea]

Obama had talked disparagingly about “us” clinging to our guns and Bibles “in fear,” but the deplorable comment made me mad. So much so that I went right out and bought this shirt …

Obama made no such comment, so you might want to get some new material to use at your Klan meetings.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Nothing is stopping high school kids and 'blacks' from performing those jobs.

I don't know what planet Matt is from, but even when I was a kid, it was immigrants doing the job of harvesting whatever couldn't be done by machine. I recall my mom being outraged when Cesar Chavez created the Farm Workers Union, and the price of seedless grapes went from 25 cents/lb to almost a dollar a lb. We weren't poor by any means and could easily afford that, but she remained pissed that increasing their wages increased our cost.

 

[Althea]

In the last 50 years productivity in our nation has exploded while the standard of living for working and middle class folks has not and is declining. Now though this has been undoubtedly caused by Republican policies the fact that Democrats have been so weak and ineffectual to change this trend for over 50 years does not inspire confidence.

If Democrats want to win these voters they need to make some serious changes.

What they mostly need to do is go out into rural communities and start competing with Republicans find out what their needs are an then actually do something for them.

Till that happens Democrats are just blowing smoke when they talk about rural and working class folk. They are tired of talk and want results that improve their life’s. There has been damned few meaningful results by Democrats in the last 50 years.m

It's as if this segment doesn't belong in the rest of your post.

You start by offering your opinion regarding Democrat policies without any specifics, or any mention of policies that were attempted but blocked by partisan politics.

You come back around when you qualify your position re. Republicans.

There are intelligent people living in rurual America for sure. I was born in a city, raised in a suburb, and have lived in the mountains of a Blue state for decades.

There are far more ignorant (of the issues) individuals in rural areas, even though they are highly skilled mechanics in their respective fields. There are higher numbers of ignorant individuals in the cities due to sheer numbers, and generations of illiteracy due to failed social programs.

But to blame Democrats for the lack of opportunities in rural areas is disingenuous.

I'll grant you that telling the truth is never the best ploy in politics, and Democrats tend to be horrible at messaging.

The ills of rural America began with offshoring of labor. It started with electronics, as executives in GE demanded that the number one allegiance was to shareholders. This doesn't sound like part of the Democrat agenda.

Over time, white collar jobs were sent overseas too. Decades later, we are left with a society that is pointing fingers without any knowledge of the truth.

Just as our politicians want.

 

[Althea]

Ralph Nader and to a lesser degree Bernie Sanders.

Alternatives that were cheated by both parties.

Until this country stops BS'ing and take to the streets when the 2 Party system prevents 3rd parties from reaching prominence, this political tennis match will continue.

Ralph Nader abused his labor force, and fired them when they tried to unionize. Go figure. He invested heavily in the market, while denouncing corporate greed.

He's a blowhard who promoted his books by running for office every few years.

I don't disagree that there is a need to break up the system we have right now, but that will never happen

 

[Mina]

Right, and the idea that a majority of voters, or even a significant number of them, make up their minds from a convention speech is ridiculous. As you suggest, fear and prejudice were Trump's calling cards, and it didn't hurt that he could make being crass look respectable.

That last line is really interesting. I'm sure you're right, with regard to a certain subset of the population -- that he made crass look respectable. But for most of us, he made crass look deplorable. Unfortunately, we have a system so tilted towards the power of rural super-voters, that you don't need to convince the majority. You just have to convince enough white folks out in the hinterlands to tilt a majority of electors your way.

 

[Althea]

Agree with you on the "secret code." That's exactly what it is. How do you handle it? I just smile and say something like "Oh, hadn't heard that," or just change the subject.

Same. A few months ago my clients were complaining about high gas prices, and just had to throw 'Thanks Biden' into the discussion. They're both very intelligent people. That attitude is beneath them.

I will only offer the same boilerplate reponse in these situations. "There isn't a person in Washington that gives a shit about us"

Common ground, as it were.

Although, I did convince an elderly staunch Republican (before MAGA) that Libertarianism simply can't work after he claimed that he leans Libertarian.

He actually had to 'grant me that'.

 

[Althea]

That last line is really interesting. I'm sure you're right, with regard to a certain subset of the population -- that he made crass look respectable. But for most of us, he made crass look deplorable. Unfortunately, we have a system so tilted towards the power of rural super-voters, that you don't need to convince the majority. You just have to convince enough white folks out in the hinterlands to tilt a majority of electors your way.

Generally true. Independents decide every election, and in trump's case it was those who refused to vote that gave him the Electoral College.