Soviet-made tanks headed to Ukraine, courtesy of U.S. and allies

McRocket said:
Big deal.

They make ZERO mention of which models, how many of each, if they are upgraded and how.

Are they T-54/55's (which are almost useless - which were originally designed during WW2)?
T-62's - not much better?
Or T-72's - useful - depending on the model and the upgrades.

This sounds like nothing but PR bullshit to make NATO look 'generous'.
Click to expand...

More importantly, a good crew versus a poor crew makes a huge difference. A really good crew in a T 55 will usually stomp on a bunch of draftees with basic training in a T 80. So, sending tanks alone makes no real difference.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
More importantly, a good crew versus a poor crew makes a huge difference. A really good crew in a T 55 will usually stomp on a bunch of draftees with basic training in a T 80. So, sending tanks alone makes no real difference.
Click to expand...

Yes, training is important.

But no matter how good the crew is...a T-55 (with it's WW2 100mm gun) is not going to be able to penetrate a modern T-80 unless it gets to point blank range.
Whereas a T-80's 125mm gun can easily take out a standard T-55 at long range.

A gun can only penetrate so much armor - no matter how good the crew is.
 
Primavera said:
Why do they need tanks anyway when they have NLAWs, Javelins, AT4s and Switchblades?
Click to expand...

Modern tanks have APS's (Active Protection System's) like Trophy (Israel/America/Germany/etc.) and Arena (Russia).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophy_(countermeasure)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arena_(countermeasure)

They have already been tested in combat and are EXTREMELY effective at destroying virtually ALL incoming missiles.
The only thing they cannot seem to defeat - so far - is kinetic energy weapons...like shells fired from guns.

None of the video coming out of Ukraine has yet shown a destroyed Russian tank equipped with Arena.
Which means either the Russians are not sending Arena-equipped tanks to Ukraine (doubtful).
Or, the system is working effectively and no/few tanks so equipped have been destroyed.
 
McRocket said:
Yes, training is important.

But no matter how good the crew is...a T-55 (with it's WW2 100mm gun) is not going to be able to penetrate a modern T-80 unless it gets to point blank range.
Whereas a T-80's 125mm gun can easily take out a standard T-55 at long range.

A gun can only penetrate so much armor - no matter how good the crew is.
Click to expand...

A good crew knows how to use their vehicle to the max. A T-55 with a good crew loads HE and takes a track off the opposing tank. The unskilled crew in it panics and abandons the vehicle. Slamming a HESH round or two into the vehicle will concuss the crew allowing time to finish them off. White Phosphorous smoke rounds are another ploy. One slams into the tank blinding it and the toxic smoke gets sucked into the ventilation. Now you have time to finish them off.

Armor penetration isn't always the name of the game.

I'll add that a good crew would know that putting an APFSDS round through the side hull below the turret and just above the road wheels will result in a detonation of the ammunition and destroy the tank.
 
Last edited:
McRocket said:
Yes, training is important.

But no matter how good the crew is...a T-55 (with it's WW2 100mm gun) is not going to be able to penetrate a modern T-80 unless it gets to point blank range.
Whereas a T-80's 125mm gun can easily take out a standard T-55 at long range.

A gun can only penetrate so much armor - no matter how good the crew is.
Click to expand...

On the subject of the T-80!

Russia’s Only Prototype T-80UM2 Tank Was Destroyed In Ukraine

The one-off T-80UM2 never went into production and its presence in Ukraine remains mysterious.

The Russian military’s one-off T-80UM2 experimental main battle tank has been knocked out during recent fighting in Ukraine, marking one of the more unusual kills attributed to the country’s defenders, who continue to disrupt the Kremlin’s invasion plans. The fact that this unique fighting vehicle was even participating in combat in Ukraine is somewhat surprising, but it would not be the first example of new or experimental Russian weapons systems being deployed in the campaign.
 
Last edited:
Sounds like a waste of $300 million. Old tanks will do nothing but give the Russian air force some easy target practice.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
A good crew knows how to use their vehicle to the max. A T-55 with a good crew loads HE and takes a track off the opposing tank. The unskilled crew in it panics and abandons the vehicle. Slamming a HESH round or two into the vehicle will concuss the crew allowing time to finish them off. White Phosphorous smoke rounds are another ploy. One slams into the tank blinding it and the toxic smoke gets sucked into the ventilation. Now you have time to finish them off.

Armor penetration isn't always the name of the game.
Click to expand...

Yes...we have all played World of Tanks or watched WW2 videos on YouTube.
How are you going to wreck the tracks of a modern T-80 that is coming straight at you? You have to hit the tracks directly - shrapnel sure won't do it.
Or if your primitive sights cannot even see it until long after the T-80 has identified you?
Or if the Russians attack at night and you have lousy/no thermal sights on the T-55?
Or if you are caught in open ground at long range?

I don't care how 'skilled' the Ukrainian crew is.
A standard T-54/55 tank has virtually no chance against a modern T-80 tank with modern sights and reactive armor unless it catches it at VERY, short range.
Even if the latter is crewed by conscripts - which the Russian tanks are not as apparently, most/all Russian troops in Ukraine are volunteers, not conscripts.

You want to believe otherwise - go ahead.

Good day.
 
Last edited:
thanks all for a great thread. I have to lookup some of the details discussed here. too stoned right now
if one doesn't understand the weapons you cant understand the war - seems obvious enough
 
signalmankenneth said:
Ukraine asked for tanks!

Zelensky renews his call for planes and tanks from NATO.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/26/...-his-call-for-planes-and-tanks-from-nato.html
Click to expand...

Depends on the tanks being offered doesn't it.

The Russian T-72 main battle tank, like many models of armor in Moscow’s inventory, is struggling against Ukrainian fighters. Social media has extensively documented the tank’s losses. The T-72 has fallen off a bridge with its crew drowned. The soldiers sit dangerously close to the ammunition storage so hits from anti-tank missiles create a huge fireball. Mortar fire is landing on the T-72s. The tanks are being blown up by mines. Drones are firing air-to-ground missiles. And, of course, the Javelin, Stugna, and NLAW anti-tank guided missiles are making life hard for the T-72 and its variants.

Then in the 1990s, it got new engines and Kontakt-5 explosive reactive armor. At 43-miles per hour on roads, it is faster and more maneuverable than the original T-72. There’s a laser range-finder and thermal sights. It can fire high-explosive anti-tank and sabot rounds from its 125mm smoothbore gun.

But the Tank Has Taken a Pounding in Ukraine

With all these improvements, why is it having difficulty on the battlefield in Ukraine? First, the high numbers of the T-72B3 means it is going to take the brunt of the losses.

The next problem is anti-tank guided munitions. Like many tanks, it has a weakness on the top of its turret where the armor is thinnest and that is what the Javelin targets to deadly effect.

Easy to Ambush

The T-72B3 also travels on roads where the Ukrainians can stage ambushes since the defenders know the lay of the land better. It can get out ahead of its supply lines and run out of fuel and ammunition. The Russian crew members have sometimes simply abandoned the tank and let the Ukrainians capture it. The Ukrainians have been skilled at using the lethal Turkish-made Bayraktar TB2 unmanned system against the T-72B3. Anti-tank mines have busted through the tank’s armor.

Russians Trying to Adapt Techniques

Despite the losses, the Russians have tried to change tactics. They are using their own recon drones and helicopters to fly out ahead of armored columns to sniff out ambushes. But the Ukrainians have Stinger MANPADs and can shoot those aircraft down.

https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/04...-built-to-fight-nato-but-is-dying-in-ukraine/
 
Last edited:
McRocket said:
Yes...we have all played World of Tanks or watched WW2 videos on YouTube.

I don't care how 'skilled' the Ukrainian crew is.
A standard T-54/55 tank has virtually no chance against a modern T-80 tank with modern sights and reactive armor unless it catches it at VERY, short range.
Even if the latter is crewed by conscripts - which the Russian tanks apparently are not as apparently, most/all Russian troops in Ukraine are volunteers, not conscripts.

You want to believe otherwise - go ahead.

Good day.
Click to expand...

World of Tanks is bullshit. Reality is descriptions like in

P8300509.JPG


Where people that own, operate, and know about tanks like the T-72 and T-80 actually give assessments of these vehicles.

The T-80 has weaknesses that can be exploited.

I suppose you are one of those idiots that still believes that it took like 5 Sherman tanks to take on a Tiger in WW 2...
 
The problem for the Russians in Ukraine is they are using totally wrong tactics with their units and vehicles. You can clearly see this on video after video.

When in urban areas, the tanks should be backing up infantry that is trained and equipped to take on a mostly infantry defense. The tank operates as support for the infantry and mostly as a 'building basher.' The infantry advances carefully and is prepared to use overwhelming firepower in the form of grenade launchers or RPG's along with their small arms to annihilate resistance quickly and completely as they move forward.

Urban warfare requires very different tactics from open field operations. Smashing all the buildings into rubble only makes things harder.

The Russians should be making far more use of the sort of scouts they had in WW 2 with the razvedchiki.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
The problem for the Russians in Ukraine is they are using totally wrong tactics with their units and vehicles. You can clearly see this on video after video.

When in urban areas, the tanks should be backing up infantry that is trained and equipped to take on a mostly infantry defense. The tank operates as support for the infantry and mostly as a 'building basher.' The infantry advances carefully and is prepared to use overwhelming firepower in the form of grenade launchers or RPG's along with their small arms to annihilate resistance quickly and completely as they move forward.

Urban warfare requires very different tactics from open field operations. Smashing all the buildings into rubble only makes things harder.

The Russians should be making far more use of the sort of scouts they had in WW 2 with the razvedchiki.
Click to expand...

This is 2022, not 1943.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
World of Tanks is bullshit. Reality is descriptions like in

P8300509.JPG


Where people that own, operate, and know about tanks like the T-72 and T-80 actually give assessments of these vehicles.

The T-80 has weaknesses that can be exploited.

I suppose you are one of those idiots that still believes that it took like 5 Sherman tanks to take on a Tiger in WW 2...
Click to expand...

I am NOT playing this childish game with you again.

We did this in the aircraft carriers are dinosaurs thread I created.
You kept going on and on about 'showing the flag' crap from the 19'th century and other baloney.
https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...raft-carriers-are-dinosaurs-Agree-or-disagree


Okay sport?

How are you going to wreck the tracks of a modern T-80 that is coming straight at you? You have to hit the tracks directly - shrapnel sure won't do it?

And how is your HESH round going to penetrate a T-80 with the latest reactive armor?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_armour
Or if your primitive sights cannot even see it until long after the T-80 has identified you?
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/ussr/soviet_t-55.php
https://military-today.com/tanks/t80.htm
Or if the Russians attack at night and you have lousy/no thermal sights on the T-55?
Or if you are caught in open ground at long range?

Answer each and every one of those - with links to unbiased, factual evidence to back it up?
Because I do not care AT ALL about your inflated 'opinion' on this stuff...only FACTS.

Good day.
 
Last edited:
Guille said:
The tactics have changed quite a bit due to advances in equipment. You really think the Russians are using tanks to knock down buildings?
Click to expand...

No, they really haven't. The last revolution in land warfare tactics was in late WW 1 with Hultier Tactics (aka stroßtruppen tactics). See for example:

https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Por...enworth-papers-4-the-dynamics-of-doctrine.pdf

The tank uses its main gun with HE rounds to demolish the building, or to shoot at targets the infantry accompanying it point out using tracer or by direct communication with the tank. In WW 2 the Allies attached a telephone to the back of tanks supporting infantry for exactly that purpose.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
No, they really haven't. The last revolution in land warfare tactics was in late WW 1 with Hultier Tactics (aka stroßtruppen tactics). See for example:

https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Por...enworth-papers-4-the-dynamics-of-doctrine.pdf

The tank uses its main gun with HE rounds to demolish the building, or to shoot at targets the infantry accompanying it point out using tracer or by direct communication with the tank. In WW 2 the Allies attached a telephone to the back of tanks supporting infantry for exactly that purpose.
Click to expand...

Missiles.
 
McRocket said:
I am NOT playing this childish game with you again.

We did this in the aircraft carriers are dinosaurs thread I created.
You kept going on and on about 'showing the flag' crap from the 19'th century and other baloney.
https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...raft-carriers-are-dinosaurs-Agree-or-disagree


Okay sport?

How are you going to wreck the tracks of a modern T-80 that is coming straight at you? You have to hit the tracks directly - shrapnel sure won't do it?

And how is your HESH round going to penetrate a T-80 with the latest reactive armor?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_armour
Or if your primitive sights cannot even see it until long after the T-80 has identified you?
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/ussr/soviet_t-55.php
https://military-today.com/tanks/t80.htm
Or if the Russians attack at night and you have lousy/no thermal sights on the T-55?
Or if you are caught in open ground at long range?

Answer each and every one of those - with links to unbiased, factual evidence to back it up?
Because I do not care AT ALL about your inflated 'opinion' on this stuff...only FACTS.

Good day.
Click to expand...

This article is a good starter. Richard Anderson and I have had many discussions on boards about various topics including this one.

http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/blog/2018/10/15/artillery-effectiveness-vs-armor-part-1/

http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/pdf/v1n6.pdf

Or this classic article on the subject

https://www.scribd.com/doc/151124802/Who-Says-Dumb-Artillery-Rounds-Can-t-Kill-Armor

A 100mm HE round is more than sufficient to take a track off any tank with a hit or even immobilize it with a near miss.

Your links are worthless and you're an amateur at this at best.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top