NATO’s reckless, self-contradictory post-Cold War development

anatta said:
I completely disagree - yes you've said it before

The way of isolating Russia,NATO expansion against Russia. weaponizing Uk with modern NATO weapons
and overthrowing The Uk president in 2014 has led to war.

"war is the ultimate failure of diplomacy" -and the west ( mostly US) - never even tried diplomacy
~~
as to Germany the best way to achieve peace -as we see in the Abraham Accords is thru trade
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Viktor Yanukovych was a totally corrupt bastard, why do you support him? Putin supported him because he was a puppet that bent to his will.
 
Primavera said:
Viktor Yanukovych was a totally corrupt bastard, why do you support him? Putin supported him because he was a puppet that bent to his will.
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It's not a question of support. Yes he was corrupt -THEY ALL ARE

He was duly elected, and made a decent deal with Putin. All this aside it'snot our business what Ukraine elects
But we made it our business.
Just like we did with Yeltsin - which begot Putin as a reaction to that drunken US sop

Meddling in the Euromaidan fomented a revolution that destabilized the culture where presidents had either a Russian or pro-west bent - but not to the extent of trumping (small t) everything else
Instead we decided to start talking about NATO membership, and arming Uk. and treating it like our puppet
As Nuland said "fuck the EU" - shows her mindset

That's why I say we played Uk like pawn. It's just part of the game to Cold Warriors.
No skin off the Cold Warriors when the war gets hot is there?
They aren't getting blown up - they're safe as their wargames play out
 
Nordberg said:
Put at risk? That is why Russia attacked Ukraine. That makes sense to you? Protecting yourself from war, is not committing war. What Putin did was and is war. Almost the entire planet is at risk from war nowadays.
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when you get Sevastopol and Black Sea Fleet were at risk, then talk
The creeps in Kyiv even damned the Dnieper river so Crimea wouldn't get fresh water
 
anatta said:
NATO’s reckless, self-contradictory post-Cold War development
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It looks like you're worried for nothing; Russia's army is ill-trained kids getting slaughtered by Ukrainians. Russia is its own worst enemy and Ukraine is happy to help finish the job.

It appears Ukraine doesn't need NATO after all. :rofl2:

https://www.rand.org/blog/2022/03/russias-problems-with-military-professionalization.html
Russia's Problems with Military Professionalization
We cannot speak to the Russian military strategy or equipment they are using. We can, however, point to what Russian service members seem to be doing with their equipment. The apparent failures among the Russian rank and file suggest this country has underlying problems in its efforts to professionalize its force structure. But you don't have to take our word for it, the Russian military and their scholars have released research—sometimes with data—to support this conclusion.

NervousUntriedHuia-size_restricted.gif
 
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anatta said:
Just listen to how confusing NATO’s approach is.
It boasts of its decision last week to pour more weapons into the conflict zone, building on NATO secretary-general Jens Stoltenberg’s pledge to Ukraine to do ‘all it takes to protect and defend all allies’.
And yet it claims it doesn’t want to get involved in the conflict for fear of escalating it.


The contradictions of NATO’s approach are myriad, but they have a clear, root cause:
Western powers have continually, almost unwittingly, stoked a conflict with Russia they do not want to fight. And now, thanks to Putin’s barbaric attempt to erase Ukraine’s nationhood, they find themselves engaged in a war they don’t want to wage.

None of this has been conscious or part of a deliberate strategy.
No, this incoherence is the product of NATO’s reckless, self-contradictory post-Cold War development – an unwittingly offensive expansion of a supposedly defensive military alliance.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/03/29/the-incoherence-at-the-heart-of-nato/
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Put simply, NATO suffers from hubris.
 
anatta said:
It's not a question of support. Yes he was corrupt -THEY ALL ARE

He was duly elected, and made a decent deal with Putin. All this aside it'snot our business what Ukraine elects
But we made it our business.
Just like we did with Yeltsin - which begot Putin as a reaction to that drunken US sop

Meddling in the Euromaidan fomented a revolution that destabilized the culture where presidents had either a Russian or pro-west bent - but not to the extent of trumping (small t) everything else
Instead we decided to start talking about NATO membership, and arming Uk. and treating it like our puppet
As Nuland said "fuck the EU" - shows her mindset

That's why I say we played Uk like pawn. It's just part of the game to Cold Warriors.
No skin off the Cold Warriors when the war gets hot is there?
They aren't getting blown up - they're safe as their wargames play out
Click to expand...

I don't think Putin will survive, they've already prepared some Novichok with his name on it.
 
anatta said:
Just listen to how confusing NATO’s approach is.
It boasts of its decision last week to pour more weapons into the conflict zone, building on NATO secretary-general Jens Stoltenberg’s pledge to Ukraine to do ‘all it takes to protect and defend all allies’.
And yet it claims it doesn’t want to get involved in the conflict for fear of escalating it.


The contradictions of NATO’s approach are myriad, but they have a clear, root cause:
Western powers have continually, almost unwittingly, stoked a conflict with Russia they do not want to fight. And now, thanks to Putin’s barbaric attempt to erase Ukraine’s nationhood, they find themselves engaged in a war they don’t want to wage.

None of this has been conscious or part of a deliberate strategy.
No, this incoherence is the product of NATO’s reckless, self-contradictory post-Cold War development – an unwittingly offensive expansion of a supposedly defensive military alliance.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/03/29/the-incoherence-at-the-heart-of-nato/
Click to expand...

There are stupid people in the world who unfortunately are in positions that compromise the wellbeing of humanity on Earth. Yet, hopefully there are enough of smart, civilized and morally correct humans on Earth that can offset and mitigate the issue against the barbaric influence on humanity, and to which is incapable of coexisting within a civilized global society either.
 
Primavera said:
I don't think Putin will survive, they've already prepared some Novichok with his name on it.
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well what's next? another drunken sot like Yeltsin?
a Navalny type who thinks the trappings of democracy are more important then steering Russian
economy to something more then a "glorified gas station?"

No doubt in my mind Putin severely over-reached, but there is also no doubt he felt Uk on his border becoming a western enclave with advanced weapons ( along with the rest of NATO's hostile expansion).

This is why he acted. not some vague 're-building the USSR' trope

Now Russia and Putin will pay - but the point is it didnt have to be this way - NATO and using Uk as a proxy battleground brought it -. and if one is honest our Cold Warriors never really cared about Uk other then a pawn

I dont know what's going to happen, but if we cant find a way to keep Russia from becoming
nothing more then a Chinese client state we're going to have problems down that road as well
 
anatta said:
well what's next? another drunken sot like Yeltsin?
a Navalny type who thinks the trappings of democracy are more important then steering Russian
economy to something more then a "glorified gas station?"

No doubt in my mind Putin severely over-reached, but there is also no doubt he felt Uk on his border becoming a western enclave with advanced weapons ( along with the rest of NATO's hostile expansion).

This is why he acted. not some vague 're-building the USSR' trope

Now Russia and Putin will pay - but the point is it didnt have to be this way - NATO and using Uk as a proxy battleground brought it -. and if one is honest our Cold Warriors never really cared about Uk other then a pawn

I dont know what's going to happen, but if we cant find a way to keep Russia from becoming
nothing more then a Chinese client state we're going to have problems down that road as well
Click to expand...

Sorry just don't buy that, if he had succeeded in taking over Ukraine then he would have been surrounded by NATO countries. I might also point out that if Ukraine hadn't given up its nuclear weapons, Putin wouldn't have even dared to attack.
 
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Primavera said:
Sorry just don't buy that, if he had ducceeded in taking over Ukraine ⁸then he would have been surrounded by NATO countries. I might also point out that Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons, if they hadn't no way Putin would have even dared to attack.
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Nukes are useless
Putin is in a war he may not win and cant use them
You refer to the Budapest Memorandum - what does that say about fomenting revolution by the USA
at the Euromaidan?
 
anatta said:
Nukes are useless
Putin is in a war he may not win and cant use them
You refer to the Budapest Memorandum - what does that say about fomenting revolution by the USA
at the Euromaidan?
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You truly are a fucking moron if you believe that.
 
anatta said:
No doubt in my mind Putin severely over-reached,
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While everybody thought that Kiev was the prize the Russians have been busy consolidating their grip on Eastern Ukraine and have almost completed cutting off Ukraine from the sea in the south. If they take Odesa it will be a fait accompli. You can argue that Kiev is a prize as well but they didn't have 40 miles of armor sitting almost motionless on the road to Kiev for nothing. The Ukrainians have concentrated their forces to defend it- and whether or not Putin takes it after Odesa seems entirely up to Putin.
Maybe the asshole Lukashenko would fancy it. It's on his border not Putin's.

My two rubles.
 
anatta said:
well what's next? another drunken sot like Yeltsin?
a Navalny type who thinks the trappings of democracy are more important then steering Russian
economy to something more then a "glorified gas station?"

No doubt in my mind Putin severely over-reached, but there is also no doubt he felt Uk on his border becoming a western enclave with advanced weapons ( along with the rest of NATO's hostile expansion).

This is why he acted. not some vague 're-building the USSR' trope

Now Russia and Putin will pay - but the point is it didnt have to be this way - NATO and using Uk as a proxy battleground brought it -. and if one is honest our Cold Warriors never really cared about Uk other then a pawn

I dont know what's going to happen, but if we cant find a way to keep Russia from becoming
nothing more then a Chinese client state we're going to have problems down that road as well
Click to expand...

Countries have a right to arm themselves in any way they see fit. Russia does not have the right to tell Ukraine what they should do in their defense, especially since Russia is who they were defending against. Putin proved Zelensky and Ukraine's leaders were right. The country that should not have weapons is Russia, They keep attacking their neighbors .
China sells and buys across the globe. They do not want to lose their markets.
 
moon said:
While everybody thought that Kiev was the prize the Russians have been busy consolidating their grip on Eastern Ukraine and have almost completed cutting off Ukraine from the sea in the south. If they take Odesa it will be a fait accompli. You can argue that Kiev is a prize as well but they didn't have 40 miles of armor sitting almost motionless on the road to Kiev for nothing. The Ukrainians have concentrated their forces to defend it- and whether or not Putin takes it after Odesa seems entirely up to Putin.
Maybe the asshole Lukashenko would fancy it. It's on his border not Putin's.

My two rubles.
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Putin could have walked into LDNR (Donbas) if that was all what he wanted
He recognized the republics, then concentrated elsewhere. a big mistake -but since Uk was becoming a base for a proxy war against Russia....hence the OP
 
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