“lose-lose” scenario

[moon]

If it were possible to re-live the past (which, of course, it isn't)...and we all went back to 1939 with Hitler invading Poland...most of us with hindsight would demand that action be taken against Hitler right then and there...NO MATTER THE COST.

Hitler was never going to stop.

It's almost always ignored that Adolf came to power in an era of crippling reparation demands by the victors of WW1. That pressure played a big part in sowing the seeds for WW2.
NATO pressure is making the same mistake.

 

[Earl]

I do not post this as a corollary to the results had we entered WWII sooner but after Germany invaded Poland in 1939 and Denmark and Norway the following year, the inevitable war might have been far shorter and far less costly in terms of human lives had we engaged sooner.

America was almost unanimously against involvement until Nov. 7, 1941.

When one country invades another smaller country, the hope is that there will be no further expansionism. History does not demonstrate this to be the case.

Russia (Putin) has expressed his desire to reconstitute the old USSR. The Ukraine is step one. Also, China looms in the background, awaiting our action or inaction as they contemplate taking Taiwan.

America has been the guarantor of world order for decades. No other country is willing or able to do so.

The absence of American leadership will embolden the barbarians to act. I don't believe Americans want further involvement in the Ukraine war. They are wary of what Russia will do if we engage but a leader, a real leader, would use this as an opportunity to lead...to explain the consequences of appeasement. We already have historical models for inaction...appeasement.

This president does not have the leadership ability to sway public opinion. He does not have the political and moral courage to force Putin to be fearful of what America would do, not the reverse.

The future appears to be...Russia takes the Ukraine and other satellite countries and China takes Taiwan and America becomes a third world power. This will lead to Dante's Ninth Circle of Hell.

 

[Walt]

At this stage- sensible people will want Russia to win quickly to minimize further loss of life and damage to the country .Continuing to send armaments into Ukraine is not an act of sensible people.

The next stage is extermination of large parts of the Ukrainian population, so you can understand why the Ukrainians do not want to move on to the next stage.

The gun lobby loves to say, "guns don't kill people", and as far as that goes, it is correct. The weapons we are sending Ukraine would kill no one if the Ukrainians were not willing to use them to fight back against the Russians. Even without weapons from the USA, they would continue fighting... But less effectively.

I do find it interesting that now Russia finds we were telling the truth that invading Ukraine would be a lose/lose situation, they now want us to betray the Ukrainians, so that at least someone wins. If we allow invaders to win by invading, there will be billions more dead.

Americans should now revisit the schoolyard NATO mantra of ' All for one, one for all ' as a 19th c. 'Three Musketeers' sword-fighting romance entirely unsuitable for 20th c. nuclear geopolitics.

NATO worked very well for the entire second half of the 20th century. It was perfect for the 20th century. It is also looking good in the 21st century.

Europe doesn't need America to protect it from Russia. The US is using Europe to protect itself.

Tell that to the Ukrainians who were outside the NATO protection. They are not liking the lack of protection.

The second part is actually correct. By protecting Europe, we are using NATO to protect ourselves.

 

[Earl]

The next stage is extermination of large parts of the Ukrainian population, so you can understand why the Ukrainians do not want to move on to the next stage.

The gun lobby loves to say, "guns don't kill people", and as far as that goes, it is correct. The weapons we are sending Ukraine would kill no one if the Ukrainians were not willing to use them to fight back against the Russians. Even without weapons from the USA, they would continue fighting... But less effectively.

I do find it interesting that now Russia finds we were telling the truth that invading Ukraine would be a lose/lose situation, they now want us to betray the Ukrainians, so that at least someone wins. If we allow invaders to win by invading, there will be billions more dead.



NATO worked very well for the entire second half of the 20th century. It was perfect for the 20th century. It is also looking good in the 21st century.



Tell that to the Ukrainians who were outside the NATO protection. They are not liking the lack of protection.

The second part is actually correct. By protecting Europe, we are using NATO to protect ourselves.

Nicely put, Walter...for a change.

 

[Walt]

Nicely put, Walter...for a change.

Thank you. If it makes you feel any better, just tell yourself "even a broken clock is right twice a day."

 

[Earl]

Thank you. If it makes you feel any better, just tell yourself "even a broken clock is right twice a day."

Indeed, Walter.

 

[moon]

Yeah.

 

[martin]

The alt right does not want a lose-lose scenario... They want Russia to firmly win, and America to firmly lose.

Seems to me the OP's argument doesn't suggest favoritism toward Russia but the dilemma of dangerously increased international tensions without a corresponding benefit in solving the underlying dispute. It's an argument
that deserves a real answer.

p.s. This is not dissimilar to the circumstances that preceded the First World War.

 

[Jack]

On Tuesday, the United States banned imports of Russian oil, closing one of the few remaining loopholes in its economic blockade of a country that exports a large share of the world’s energy, wheat, and metals.
On Friday, the U.S. signaled that it would join the E.U. and other members of the G7 in suspending normal trade relations with Russia altogether.

The impact of these unprecedented sanctions will be felt far beyond Russia’s borders.
The removal of large quantities of Russian energy and agricultural products from the global market is already putting upward pressure on global food prices, which hit a record high last month. Even before the present crisis, millions in Afghanistan were at risk of famine.
Now, deaths from starvation are poised to spike, while more mundane material hardships ripple out across the Global North. And the economic outlook is liable to get worse before it gets better, as the Kremlin is signaling that it will soon unveil retaliatory sanctions.

Thus, the conflict’s current trajectory is leading the world toward the “lose-lose” scenario of a global recession, while also increasing the tail risk of nuclear war. It is not clear how either side intends to avert disaster, let alone secure a victory.

Over the past two weeks, the U.S. and Europe have rapidly escalated their economic war on Russia, crossing lines that were unthinkable in the conflict’s early days. The strategic logic behind these moves — which is to say, the theory for how immiserating Russia will preserve an independent Ukraine — remains largely unspecified. And there is reason to fear that the West’s escalations reflect domestic political pressures more than cool-headed diplomatic calculation. For a White House that is eager to demonstrate American leadership on the global stage, but loath to entangle U.S. troops in another far-flung conflict, ever-more punishing sanctions may have simply been the path of least resistance, no matter where it appeared to lead.

Other traditional aims of economic warfare are to coerce an aggressor into a peace settlement, or to undermine their material capacity for waging war. Unfortunately, there is cause for doubting the sanctions’ efficacy on both these fronts.

Translation: 'The West should do nothing. Let Russia take Ukraine. What's the Big Deal?'

 

[Jack]

Seems to me the OP's argument doesn't suggest favoritism toward Russia but the dilemma of dangerously increased international tensions without a corresponding benefit in solving the underlying dispute. It's an argument
that deserves a real answer.

p.s. This is not dissimilar to the circumstances that preceded the First World War.

So. Any time Russia wants to expand it's Territory, the rest of the World should be worried it might start a War by Resisting?

 

[Earl]

The alt right does not want a lose-lose scenario... They want Russia to firmly win, and America to firmly lose.

Walter, Walter, Walter...I do not believe that you believe what you posted.

Hyperbole is great...in moderation.

There is one loony Moony poster who believes that but no one else that I have seen.

 

[Walt]

This is not dissimilar to the circumstances that preceded the First World War.

This is more similar to the beginning of WWII, where we keep letting Putin invade places so as to avoid war. If the Ukrainians are willing to defend themselves, who are we to tell them that they cannot. I doubt we could force them to stop defending themselves.

 

[moon]

So. Any time Russia wants to expand it's Territory, the rest of the World should be worried it might start a War by Resisting?

For ' Russia ' read ' NATO '

 

[Walt]

Walter, Walter, Walter...I do not believe that you believe what you posted.

Hyperbole is great...in moderation.

Let me make this as clear as I can. The very best outcome from this war is a lose/lose outcome. If Russia wins, it will be terrible for everyone, INCLUDING RUSSIA. If Germany had run into a lose/lose war at the beginning of WWII, the world would be a better place.

If the Ukrainians are willing to stand up and fight for themselves, I support them to a limited extent. I am not willing to go to war for Ukraine, but I am not willing to support Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

Biden has done a great thing in combating Putin's false flag operations, and propaganda. Most of the world sees this for what it is, naked aggression by Putin. If the alt right still believes the Ukraine created Covid in a secret Neo-Nazi bio-lab owned by Biden and the Illuminati, that is on them. The evidence has been laid out.

 

[Jack]

For ' Russia ' read ' NATO '

The UN was created to End war. Russia sits as a Permanent Member.

 

[martin]

So. Any time Russia wants to expand it's Territory, the rest of the World should be worried it might start a War by Resisting?

Another non-answer.

 

[Jack]

Another non-answer.

The UN has agreed that the 'Borders' as they are now, are NOT to be violated.

 

[moon]

The UN was created to End war. Russia sits as a Permanent Member.

So does the USA- with an entire page of illegal wars.

 

[moon]

Walt;

Most of the world sees this for what it is, naked aggression by Putin.

No- half the world did not vote to condemn Russia at the UN- represented by 40 countries. Like it or not- Russia has a moral case . I don't see NATO as moral for ignoring it.

 

[Earl]

Let me make this as clear as I can. The very best outcome from this war is a lose/lose outcome. If Russia wins, it will be terrible for everyone, INCLUDING RUSSIA. If Germany had run into a lose/lose war at the beginning of WWII, the world would be a better place.

If the Ukrainians are willing to stand up and fight for themselves, I support them to a limited extent. I am not willing to go to war for Ukraine, but I am not willing to support Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

Biden has done a great thing in combating Putin's false flag operations, and propaganda. Most of the world sees this for what it is, naked aggression by Putin. If the alt right still believes the Ukraine created Covid in a secret Neo-Nazi bio-lab owned by Biden and the Illuminati, that is on them. The evidence has been laid out.

Don’t be absurd, Walter. No one of consequence believes that the Ukraine created COVID. or that Biden owns secret Neo-Nazi bio-labs. No one of consequence believes that.

Your “lose/lose” outcome shows the great divide between the left and the right. We want an unconditional WIN, not a loss of any description. We demanded unconditional surrender in WWII.

You may not realize it Walter, but the world is at a tipping point...the great abyss beckons.

There can be no equivocation. Decisive action is vital and I doubt Biden can decide which flavor of ice cream he wants.

We are leaderless, you know it’s true.