It's price gouging, not inflation or supply issues

[LV426]

I am definitely opposed to nationalizing industry as I don't see the govt as an efficient way of doing business. They can barely take care of their own business let alone the oil industry.

Ok, well here's the problem:

We can't ever achieve "energy independence" so long as we allow oil companies to sell the domestic oil they extract from under our feet.

And when it comes to the oil industry, it's run WORSE than government is.

The oil industry is so fragile that if the price per barrel drops by 50%, hundreds of US oil companies and a handful of states would need a bailout.

 

[Yakuda]

Ok, well here's the problem:

We can't ever achieve "energy independence" so long as we allow oil companies to sell the domestic oil they extract from under our feet.

And when it comes to the oil industry, it's run WORSE than government is.

The oil industry is so fragile that if the price per barrel drops by 50%, hundreds of US oil companies and a handful of states would need a bailout.

Ok so I say give them a good reason to keep it here.

 

[LV426]

Ok so I say give them a good reason to keep it here.

The only reason that counts is $$$$...it's not in US oil companies' interests to "keep it here".

 

[Yakuda]

The only reason that counts is $$$$...it's not in US oil companies' interests to "keep it here".

I agree which is why we have to make it in their interest.

 

[LV426]

I agree which is why we have to make it in their interest.

I don't see how you do that without nationalization.

 

[Yakuda]

I don't see how you do that without nationalization.

Nationalization is not in their interest. Why should they have to only sell the oil here?

 

[LV426]

Nationalization is not in their interest. Why should they have to only sell the oil here?

Well, don't you want "energy independence"? Because that's the only way we get energy independence...by forcing those companies to only sell to US refineries. And again, I just don't see how you get there without nationalization because, as you astutely point out, why should they have to only sell the oil here?

I guess we have to first decide if oil is a public commodity? If it is, then that pretty much does away with the privatization argument, doesn't it? If we treat oil as a publicly-owned commodity, then there are no avenues for that oil to be extracted and sold by for-profit firms.

Basically, we can never achieve true "energy independence" so long as private companies sell the oil they extract from under our feet for profit.

 

[Yakuda]

Well, don't you want "energy independence"? Because that's the only way we get energy independence...by forcing those companies to only sell to US refineries. And again, I just don't see how you get there without nationalization because, as you astutely point out, why should they have to only sell the oil here?

I guess we have to first decide if oil is a public commodity? If it is, then that pretty much does away with the privatization argument, doesn't it? If we treat oil as a publicly-owned commodity, then there are no avenues for that oil to be extracted and sold by for-profit firms.

Basically, we can never achieve true "energy independence" so long as private companies sell the oil they extract from under our feet for profit.

I don't believe that's the case. Selling abroad doesnt seem relevant to me. They could sell one barrel here for every sold abroad but it has to be worth while.

So therein lies our disagreement. I don't think oil is a public commodity it's a product to be bought and sold. It could be made more attractive to sell here than abroad. But I don't see profit as the enemy.

 

[LV426]

I don't believe that's the case. Selling abroad doesnt seem relevant to me. They could sell one barrel here for every sold abroad but it has to be worth while.

By "worthwhile" you mean "for a profit", right?

We can't ever have energy independence if we also have private companies who sell the oil for profit.

So therein lies our disagreement. I don't think oil is a public commodity it's a product to be bought and sold. It could be made more attractive to sell here than abroad. But I don't see profit as the enemy.

How can it be made more attractive to sell here than abroad? The only way that happens is if we pay more than what they're paying abroad.

Otherwise, we have no control over how oil companies sell the oil they extracted from under our feet.

Seems to me that the only way we can keep private oil companies AND achieve energy independence is if we're willing to pay above-market fees for oil...which means gas prices much, much higher than $4/gallon.

 

[Yakuda]

By "worthwhile" you mean "for a profit", right?

We can't ever have energy independence if we also have private companies who sell the oil for profit.





How can it be made more attractive to sell here than abroad? The only way that happens is if we pay more than what they're paying abroad.

Otherwise, we have no control over how oil companies sell the oil they extracted from under our feet.

Seems to me that the only way we can keep private oil companies AND achieve energy independence is if we're willing to pay above-market fees for oil...which means gas prices much, much higher than $4/gallon.

No not necessarily but private businesses are entitled to a profit.

Sure we have control in how and what we buy.

Where did you think it's going anyway? Energy independence bodies t necessarily mean kower prices it just means we don't have to rely on outside sources.

 

[volsrock]

Every single oil company recorded record profits for 2021, so it's not inflation that's causing your gas to be $4/gallon, it's capitalism and greed.

Exclusive: oil companies’ profits soared to $174bn this year as US gas prices rose
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/dec/06/oil-companies-profits-exxon-chevron-shell-exclusive

Yup all that greed started under Biden

 

[Monad Portal]

Every single oil company recorded record profits for 2021, so it's not inflation that's causing your gas to be $4/gallon, it's capitalism and greed.

Exclusive: oil companies’ profits soared to $174bn this year as US gas prices rose
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/dec/06/oil-companies-profits-exxon-chevron-shell-exclusive

those profits are also inflation.

 

[LV426]

No not necessarily but private businesses are entitled to a profit.

Then we will not have energy independence.

Energy independence runs in direct conflict with profits because the only way we'd be able to achieve it in this context would be to pay more than anyone else in the market.

So energy independence would come at a steep, steep cost to consumers if you're not willing to nationalize the oil industry.

Sure we have control in how and what we buy.

But we don't have control over how and where and when they sell.

Where did you think it's going anyway? Energy independence bodies t necessarily mean kower prices it just means we don't have to rely on outside sources.

Well I think that's a tough bargain to sell; we achieve energy independence by paying out the nose for oil that is literally under our feet.

 

[LV426]

Yup all that greed started under Biden

Back in 2008, gas prices were higher than they are now and you didn't want anyone blaming Bush the Dumber for it.

 

[Monad Portal]

No not necessarily but private businesses are entitled to a profit.

Sure we have control in how and what we buy.

Where did you think it's going anyway? Energy independence bodies t necessarily mean kower prices it just means we don't have to rely on outside sources.

yes. secure supply chains matter.

 

[LV426]

those profits are also inflation.

If it's inflation, then how come wages haven't inflated at the same rate?

 

[Monad Portal]

Then we will not have energy independence.

Energy independence runs in direct conflict with profits because the only way we'd be able to achieve it in this context would be to pay more than anyone else in the market.

So energy independence would come at a steep, steep cost to consumers if you're not willing to nationalize the oil industry.




But we don't have control over how and where and when they sell.




Well I think that's a tough bargain to sell; we achieve energy independence by paying out the nose for oil that is literally under our feet.

no.

energy independence is only in conflict with enviro-lies.

 

[Yakuda]

Then we will not have energy independence.

Energy independence runs in direct conflict with profits because the only way we'd be able to achieve it in this context would be to pay more than anyone else in the market.

So energy independence would come at a steep, steep cost to consumers if you're not willing to nationalize the oil industry.




But we don't have control over how and where and when they sell.




Well I think that's a tough bargain to sell; we achieve energy independence by paying out the nose for oil that is literally under our feet.

I don't agreed but even Biden said sanctioning Russia "will have costs" for the US.

And we shouldn't.

Then someone can start a company to do it cheaper. When prices get too high the market will force the price down. They will increase at first no doubt but eventually they will come down. By your reasoning here the oil companies could charge $1000/barrel for the profit but how long do you think that would last?

 

[LV426]

energy independence is only in conflict with enviro-lies.

No, it is in direct conflict with profits...it's not profitable for oil companies to keep the domestic oil within the US.

 

[LV426]

I don't agreed but even Biden said sanctioning Russia "will have costs" for the US.

Of course...but last night, OPEC announced it would increase production, which caused the price per barrel to drop by 13% overnight.

Then someone can start a company to do it cheaper. When prices get too high the market will force the price down. They will increase at first no doubt but eventually they will come down. By your reasoning here the oil companies could charge $1000/barrel for the profit but how long do you think that would last?

I think starting a new oil company is much easier said than done.

The problem is that oil is bought and sold on the global markets, and the global supply is controlled by a cartel...so like I said before, we could quadruple oil production in the US but it won't matter because OPEC will simply adjust their production to account for ours in order to maintain the price per barrel....and that's if they're feeling nice.

They could always choose to be gigantic assholes and increase oil production by so much, it bankrupts US companies...which is what they actually did in 2015-16.