Biden green lights funds for nationwide electric vehicle charging network.

floridafan said:
The entire auto industry, worldwide, are scientific illiterates?? This has little if anything to do with governments.
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The government is the ones pushing this, not the auto industry. Outside of Musk's Tesla not one manufacturer was interested in building a battery powered electric car except for government subsidized funding and support for one. NOT ONE!
 
floridafan said:
Was technology perfected when the first personal computers were built, or when Apple introduced their first cell phones? Technology evolves over time
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Batteries are a known and mature industry. You cannot do better than the elements on the periodic table will let you. DC electric power systems are a known and mature technology. You are not suddenly going to do better than they now exist.

On the other hand, fuel cells are a new and rising technology. Both liquid hydrogen and ammonia are portable fuels that fit within the existing infrastructure of the gasoline powered car technology. Ammonia is particularly attractive as anhydrous ammonia is already in large scale production and use as a fertilizer.
Fuel cells are the future, not batteries. Gasoline and diesel will continue as a legacy fuel both because vehicles will continue to use it, but also because the oil industry provides a vast array of raw material for the production of an even vaster array of stuff we use every day. Oil isn't going away unless you don't want plastics, medicine, clothes, and a plethora of other stuff.

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/f...Made From Oil and Natural Gas Infographic.pdf
 
T. A. Gardner said:
Batteries are a known and mature industry. You cannot do better than the elements on the periodic table will let you. DC electric power systems are a known and mature technology. You are not suddenly going to do better than they now exist.

On the other hand, fuel cells are a new and rising technology. Both liquid hydrogen and ammonia are portable fuels that fit within the existing infrastructure of the gasoline powered car technology. Ammonia is particularly attractive as anhydrous ammonia is already in large scale production and use as a fertilizer.
Fuel cells are the future, not batteries. Gasoline and diesel will continue as a legacy fuel both because vehicles will continue to use it, but also because the oil industry provides a vast array of raw material for the production of an even vaster array of stuff we use every day. Oil isn't going away unless you don't want plastics, medicine, clothes, and a plethora of other stuff.

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/f...Made From Oil and Natural Gas Infographic.pdf
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Newer technology will eventually replace a battery powered vehicle, but for now they are far superior to gasoline power. No tune ups, no oil changes, no spark plugs, a much simpler vehicle.
 
floridafan said:
Link? Prove it!!!
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Labor wanted half the new-car fleet to be electric by 2030. The government calls that policy expensive pie in the sky. Prime Minister Scott Morrison hammered home the point during his first election debate with Labor leader Bill Shorten, saying, “I can tell you how much (more an) electric car costs than a standard car, it’s $28,000.” The cheapest pure electric car today is Hyundai’s Ioniq Electric, priced from $44,990 plus on-road costs, $4000 more than the cheapest plug-in hybrid version. Nissan’s Leaf, a little dearer at $49,990 plus on-roads, hits showrooms in August. MG is likely to undercut those with its new eZS compact SUV in 2020, while VW says its coming I.D electric hatch will cost similar money to a high-end Golf ($40,000 or so) in 2021.
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https://morningmail.org/electric-vehicle-subsidies-should-not-exist/

This site is very pro battery car and the author can only manage to claim, well, maybe they could have managed without subsidies...

It’s pretty common nowadays to hear the claim that the only reason that Tesla, or SpaceX, or any of Elon Musk’s other ventures exists is because of government subsidies. I’ve myself heard the claim quite a lot over just the last few weeks.

That noted, the reality also is that even without the existence of such programs, the companies in question could very well have remained viable simply by expanding more slowly than they have...
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Detroit's two biggest automakers aren't quite charging headfirst into electric propulsion.

Ford and GM have taken turns making a big deal about their respective electric vehicle plans, Ford with its battery-powered F-150 and Mustang Mach-E crossover, and GM with its "all electric future" promise and grandiose Super Bowl Hummer EV trailer.

Yet despite all the buzz the two automotive titans have generated, both are poised to take a measured, tepid approach to embracing our shared electric-propulsion future, with Reuters reporting that EVs will make up a slim minority of Ford and GM's future production numbers. Based on some detailed North American production plans Reuters recently got ahold of, the two automakers will churn out a combined 5 million or so gas-powered utility vehicles in 2026, next to just 320,000 electric vehicles.
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https://carbuzz.com/news/ford-and-gm-dont-love-electric-cars-as-much-as-they-say

If not for subsidies, nobody outside kooks like Musk would be building battery cars.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
If not for subsidies, nobody outside kooks like Musk would be building battery cars.
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If not for subsidies, the oil and gas industries would have died decades ago.

Oil and gas subsidies are the only thing keeping both afloat right now because the bottom fell out of the natural gas market by 2020, and the oil market is controlled by OPEC...which means the federal government needs to step in occasionally, as they did in 2015, to save disparate states like Texas and Oklahoma who rely too much on oil revenues to keep their economies and state budgets afloat because they won't diversify their economies in any meaningful way.

End those subsidies and the welfare states of Texas, Oklahoma, North Dakota and others all collapse.
 
floridafan said:
Newer technology will eventually replace a battery powered vehicle, but for now they are far superior to gasoline power. No tune ups, no oil changes, no spark plugs, a much simpler vehicle.
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No, they're not. For example, the Tesla battery pack is a major engineering mess. If one cell out of over 7,000 goes bad you are looking at a $20,000 + repair bill to get a new one. Musk cramming all that computer tech into the vehicle is also a nightmare of crazy. Look at the huge recalls Tesla has repeatedly had to make to fix problems with hardware and software in their vehicles.

The cost alone of battery cars is prohibitive to buying one and the resell market is shit since they only last at most about 6 to 8 years in service, possibly less before the battery goes bad and that ends the value of the car totally.

I have one Nissan Frontier pick up right now that's going on 250,000 miles and is 21 years old. No Tesla will EVER manage that because of the battery alone, especially when my total repair and service bills on that truck amount to about $5,000, possibly less.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
No, they're not. For example, the Tesla battery pack is a major engineering mess. If one cell out of over 7,000 goes bad you are looking at a $20,000 + repair bill to get a new one. Musk cramming all that computer tech into the vehicle is also a nightmare of crazy. Look at the huge recalls Tesla has repeatedly had to make to fix problems with hardware and software in their vehicles.

The cost alone of battery cars is prohibitive to buying one and the resell market is shit since they only last at most about 6 to 8 years in service, possibly less before the battery goes bad and that ends the value of the car totally.


I have one Nissan Frontier pick up right now that's going on 250,000 miles and is 21 years old. No Tesla will EVER manage that because of the battery alone, especially when my total repair and service bills on that truck amount to about $5,000, possibly less.
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if the battery is such a mess, why are they Guaranteed for 10 years or more?
There is no $20,000 repair bill, its more of your bull shit.
If this world was left up to your kind, we would still be driving a horse and buggy.
 
LV426 said:
If not for subsidies, the oil and gas industries would have died decades ago.

Oil and gas subsidies are the only thing keeping both afloat right now because the bottom fell out of the natural gas market by 2020, and the oil market is controlled by OPEC...which means the federal government needs to step in occasionally, as they did in 2015, to save disparate states like Texas and Oklahoma who rely too much on oil revenues to keep their economies and state budgets afloat because they won't diversify their economies in any meaningful way.

End those subsidies and the welfare states of Texas, Oklahoma, North Dakota and others all collapse.
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Yea, sure.

Here's a site that lists the current (supposed) ones. Point out which ones aren't accounting tricks used by any business, like depreciation of assets, or ones that are related to government policy and research efforts...

https://www.eesi.org/files/FactShee...stimated to total 55 billion euros annually.2

In the battery car industry, the subsidies are direct to lower the manufacturing and purchase prices of the vehicles. They are straight up cash handouts that aren't to be repaid.
 
floridafan said:
if the battery is such a mess, why are they Guaranteed for 10 years or more?
There is no $20,000 repair bill, its more of your bull shit.
If this world was left up to your kind, we would still be driving a horse and buggy.
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Here's an OEM company that repairs Tesla batteries and cars. They explain it to you.

 

Tesla doesn't want companies like Gruber Motors fixing their cars. They are against "Right to Repair." They want you to just buy a new battery from them--PERIOD!
 
T. A. Gardner said:
If not for subsidies, nobody outside kooks like Musk would be building battery cars.
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:nono:

20c855ksm4031.jpg
 
Joe Capitalist said:
Wolverine's argument is lame. The ICE cars have much more 'disposal' issues than EVs. And they're working on technology to re-use the batteries:

The rapid penetration of electric vehicles has led to questions on its most expensive component – the battery. What happens to the batteries after 8-10 years of service when they retire from EVs due to capacity fade?

Volkswagen announced its ambitious target to build a million EVs by 2025 and has already got a plan for their used EV batteries. Earlier this year, Volkswagen unveiled its “power bank for the e-car”, a mobile rapid charger consisting of up to 360kWh second-life EV batteries that can charge up to four vehicles simultaneously. The second-life battery powered mobile charging stations provide a flexible and cost-efficient approach to the rapid expansion of the charging infrastructure, according to Volkswagen.

After 8 to 10 years of service in EVs, batteries are normally retired due to faded capacity and power that fail to meet the range requirement of electric vehicles. According to IDTechEx’s latest report on Second-life Electric Vehicles 2020-2030, there will be over six million battery packs retiring from electric vehicles per year by 2030. Recycling to extract raw materials from the spent batteries seems to be the default option. However, those used batteries could still retain up to 70-80% of the original capacity that can be further utilised in less-demanding applications such as stationary energy storage, before being recycled. Major OEMs and energy storage companies have launched various pilot and business initiatives to explore second-life applications for used EV batteries.

By 2030, second-life battery capacity will hit over 275GWh per year which presents huge opportunities for energy storage, according to the IDTechEx report. However, many technical, economic and regulatory challenges exist that might make it difficult for companies to profit from second-life batteries. The report offers an in-depth analysis of key technologies, players, challenges and market opportunities across the second-life battery value chain. Based on conversations with global leading players in the second-life battery area, this report predicts the market size and analyses the major market trends of second-life batteries over the next decade.
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Lazy fucker doesn't do links apparently!!

https://www.google.com/url?q=https:...YQFXoECAIQAg&usg=AOvVaw0VS_W_j0LndqrbWj1eq6H9
 
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