Voter fraud in Iran?

Damocles said:
They were claiming it before all the polls had even closed.

Some relevant information.

Record turnouts are almost never good for the incumbent, that is what they had. So many people turned out to vote that often they ran out of ballots and had to hold lines open for as many as 14 hours after they were supposed to close to get all the voters in.

Record turnout from the students who boycotted last election. The younger people in Iran have a massive lean towards the opposition candidate's position and comprise 2/3 of the population.
Click to expand...

I wonder how many more protesters have been killed and hurt by the armed gunmen? Have you heard?
 
blackascoal said:
Unlike many Americans .. which probably includes you .. I did not ignore the election failings IN MY OWN COUNTRY and save misplaced fake anger for elections held in another country that I've never visited or know anything about their elections.

I've already posted the observations of international monitors .. who don't just come from socialist countries and which includes a former American president that confirm Venezuelan election fair, open, transparent, and honest.

I can also post observations of the opposition that declare the exact same thing .. but I'm real sure that none of this impresses you as the truth is that you simply don't like Venezuela or the will of the Venezuelan people.

I got that.
Click to expand...
One doesn't need to ignore their own failings to be capable of seeing further issues in another.

It is silly to suggest that first the US, which I have no control over, must be perfect before I can notice problems elsewhere. It would be like being incapable of knowing that 5+5 does not equal 12 when I got a different math equation wrong on a different test....

It is also silly to suggest that problems elsewhere are negligent because we have problems, or that people like former US Presidents can miss evidence when shown what they want to see, or even that US Presidents are perfect in some aspect. Much like Senators and Congressmen report what they are shown, which may not include further information that they were not shown. And when the media is controlled by the power that will win it is silly to suggest that they have the whole story.

On top of all of that the former President's group found much of the same issues that we have seen in the US, including delay of voting, lack of workers, technical problems including automated machines that didn't count certain ballots. They even reported that the voters had difficulty understanding how to mark ballots... sounds like Florida.

http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc1013.html

Yet they say the elections were fair. If those were the only issues I'd agree with them, but they weren't.

When reports of violence on opponents is disregarded by yourself in Venezuela, but a suggestion that something could happen here means it did happen it is clear which direction the dislike leans...

I got that.

Their elections are at least as problematic as our own, and then there is the violence reports as well. There is a reason that the opposition didn't trust the process and sat out once, and it isn't because their elections are the perfection you seem to believe they are.

My eyes are open. If the Venezuela elections were held and had exactly the same issues reported in the US, they'd be relatively clean as reported by the "Former President", but when there is also the reports of media control and violence on opposition it creates a much larger issue that they have to overcome, and I hope that they will some time in the near future. Had the only issues been like those in the US, then Carter's group would be right, they would be relatively fair considering the huge complexity they have to work with.
 
Damocles said:
One doesn't need to ignore their own failings to be capable of seeing further issues in another.

It is silly to suggest that first the US, which I have no control over, must be perfect before I can notice problems elsewhere. It would be like being incapable of knowing that 5+5 does not equal 12 when I got a different math equation wrong on a different test....

It is also silly to suggest that problems elsewhere are negligent because we have problems, or that people like former US Presidents can miss evidence when shown what they want to see, or even that US Presidents are perfect in some aspect. Much like Senators and Congressmen report what they are shown, which may not include further information that they were not shown. And when the media is controlled by the power that will win it is silly to suggest that they have the whole story.

On top of all of that the former President's group found much of the same issues that we have seen in the US, including delay of voting, lack of workers, technical problems including automated machines that didn't count certain ballots. They even reported that the voters had difficulty understanding how to mark ballots... sounds like Florida.

http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc1013.html

Yet they say the elections were fair. If those were the only issues I'd agree with them, but they weren't.

When reports of violence on opponents is disregarded by yourself in Venezuela, but a suggestion that something could happen here means it did happen it is clear which direction the dislike leans...

I got that.

Their elections are at least as problematic as our own, and then there is the violence reports as well. There is a reason that the opposition didn't trust the process and sat out once, and it isn't because their elections are the perfection you seem to believe they are.

My eyes are open. If the Venezuela elections were held and had exactly the same issues reported in the US, they'd be relatively clean as reported by the "Former President", but when there is also the reports of media control and violence on opposition it creates a much larger issue that they have to overcome, and I hope that they will some time in the near future. Had the only issues been like those in the US, then Carter's group would be right, they would be relatively fair considering the huge complexity they have to work with.
Click to expand...

I'm fairly certain that whatever Venezuela does will be a problem for you brother.

American elections are privately-owned and two brothers, the Urosovics, count more than 80% of the ballots in the US.

Violence on the opposition? Ever seen "American Blackout?"

Ever heard of police intimidation of American citizens trying to vote?

Media control? Are you serious? You think media control doesn't exist in the US?

Are you aware that there are 16 states STILL under the voters Rights Act because they STILL cannot be trusted to conduct fair and open elections?

The American presidency is up for sale to the highest bidder every 4 years and he who gathers the most money is usually the winner. That's democracy?

Dude, you live in a plutocracy where winners and losers are chosen by the corporate will, not the will of the American people. That's the facade.

Ever heard of ChoicePoint?

Voter-roll purges?

Disenfranchisment of minorities?

Do you think any of this is ancient history?

Do you think we'd welcome international observers to our elections with open arms as Chavez has always done? Hell to the NO. Right-wingers would be crying like babies about "foreigners."

This is typical Americanism .. look out the window for problems with people you don't like, but by all means, don't look in the mirror.

Sure, you can ignore the failings in your own country if you choose. You can close your eyes real tight and pretend you have authority to point fingers at other countries. But Americans have about as much "authority" to criticize elections in other countries as we do to criticize countries that torture people.

I have no idea if the elections in Iran were fair. That will be up to the Iranian people to determine. But Americans criticizing elections there is quite foolish, especially given our history here and there.

I do have a very good idea that elections in Venezuela were in fact "Transparent, Exemplary, and Fair." So says not only the international observers, but also the opposition.
 
blackascoal said:
I'm fairly certain that whatever Venezuela does will be a problem for you brother.

American elections are privately-owned and two brothers, the Urosovics, count more than 80% of the ballots in the US.

Violence on the opposition? Ever seen "American Blackout?"

Ever heard of police intimidation of American citizens trying to vote?

Media control? Are you serious? You think media control doesn't exist in the US?

Are you aware that there are 16 states STILL under the voters Rights Act because they STILL cannot be trusted to conduct fair and open elections?

The American presidency is up for sale to the highest bidder every 4 years and he who gathers the most money is usually the winner. That's democracy?

Dude, you live in a plutocracy where winners and losers are chosen by the corporate will, not the will of the American people. That's the facade.

Ever heard of ChoicePoint?

Voter-roll purges?

Disenfranchisment of minorities?

Do you think any of this is ancient history?

Do you think we'd welcome international observers to our elections with open arms as Chavez has always done? Hell to the NO. Right-wingers would be crying like babies about "foreigners."

This is typical Americanism .. look out the window for problems with people you don't like, but by all means, don't look in the mirror.

Sure, you can ignore the failings in your own country if you choose. You can close your eyes real tight and pretend you have authority to point fingers at other countries. But Americans have about as much "authority" to criticize elections in other countries as we do to criticize countries that torture people.

I have no idea if the elections in Iran were fair. That will be up to the Iranian people to determine. But Americans criticizing elections there is quite foolish, especially given our history here and there.

I do have a very good idea that elections in Venezuela were in fact "Transparent, Exemplary, and Fair." So says not only the international observers, but also the opposition.
Click to expand...
Again it is silly to pretend that people are incapable of seeing problems in their own system as well as noticing the same in another.

And as I said, I have no problem with Venezuela, other than I hope their people get what they want. Even if it is Chavez.

Only you have some incapacity to see problems elsewhere based on problems here.

I haven't told Venezuela what to do with their elections, but "former Presidents" that you say reported fair elections in Venezuela have, because they saw problems with them... I've ventured no advice, I've only pointed out that your reports of their perfect elections are exaggerated.
 
Damocles said:
Again it is silly to pretend that people are incapable of seeing problems in their own system as well as noticing the same in another.

And as I said, I have no problem with Venezuela, other than I hope their people get what they want. Even if it is Chavez.

Only you have some incapacity to see problems elsewhere based on problems here.

I haven't told Venezuela what to do with their elections, but "former Presidents" that you say reported fair elections in Venezuela have, because they saw problems with them... I've ventured no advice, I've only pointed out that your reports of their perfect elections are exaggerated.
Click to expand...

Here's what that former president had to say ..

We were out early on election morning and were amazed at the incredibly large turnout, with thousands of people waiting in line an hour before polls were scheduled to open. Venezuela has a system of electronic voting (with a paper ballot backup) and voters' thumbprints are recorded electronically, transmitted by satellite, and compared almost instantaneously to prevent multiple voting.
NOTE: Do you have a paper backup in your country? .. How about thumbprint identification?

A "No" vote supported Chavez, and a "Yes" vote called for his removal from office. Starting was somewhat slow, but 99.5 percent of the voting machines were on the line by 10:30 a.m. Some of the fingerprint operators did not report for duty, but this was not permitted to interfere with voting. The great waiting crowds were in fine spirits, cheering loudly everywhere we showed up.

During the day, the opposition leaders presented to us and their supporters what turned out to be erroneous exit polling data that showed Chavez losing the vote by 20 points or more, and they also sent this information to their own people and to foreign news media. However, the news media honored the CNE ruling against broadcasting any kind of alleged voting results domestically. In the meantime, long voter lines remained intact past the 4 p.m. closing time, past an extended 8 p.m. closing time, and until midnight, when they finally closed. A few people voted as late as 3 a.m.

At about 12:30 a.m., we and OAS leaders were invited to witness the disclosure of the first electronic tabulation, which showed "No" votes at 57 percent and "Yes" votes at 43 percent among the 6.6 million votes counted at that time (of 10.5 million expected to vote). Gaviria and I decided to invite the private media owners and opposition leaders to my hotel suite to let them know about this and to tell them that this was compatible with our own quick count results. The media owners and some of the opposition said they would accept our judgment while others were angry. We urged them to check their own sample voting results and stated that we would obtain updated figures next morning before making a public declaration of our judgment. We were in Venezuela to remain neutral, to observe the electoral system, and to make a careful and sound final assessment regarding whether the will of the people is expressed. Chavez called me, and I urged him to wait on any claim of victory until after a CNE public announcement and to be generous and positive in his victory statement. He promised to do so.

Finally, after three hours, we offered to the still irate opposition leaders our services in resolving any of their remaining doubts before we had to leave (after two more days). Having insisted all during election day on a 20 point defeat for Chavez, their pollster (Súmate) admitted before leaving that their data now showed only a five point defeat and that quick count data were still being received. Early the next morning, they reported that these results were reversed, with 55 percent supporting Chavez, but opposition leaders still were claiming massive fraud and a victory for their side. Final voting results, including the centers with manual ballots, showed 59-41 in favor of Chavez, with his victory in 22 of the 24 states.

Gaviria and I had another press conference early in the afternoon on Monday to confirm the legitimacy of the CNE returns. I called Secretary of State Colin Powell to report our authentication of results, and he promised to issue a statement from Washington endorsing our findings.

On Monday, we had supper with Chavez and found him eager to begin substantive dialogues with responsible opposition leaders who are willing to reciprocate. We urged him to show generosity to Súmate and some others who are being accused of crimes going back to the coup against him and to ensure a balanced membership of CNE as local and state elections are planned late in September. He was receptive to these suggestions and supported an additional audit of electronic paper ballot backups from the machines that would assuage any remaining doubters.
http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc1801.html

That former president only confirms what ALL the international observers have said, and what I believe. Venezuelan elections are fair.

My comments here address shit like this ..
Iran is cleaner than Venezuala
Click to expand...

and this ..
Chavez is as corrupt as they come.
Click to expand...

and this ..
And reports of physical violence on students supporting his opposition. It's all good they're magically perfect because they are more socialist than we are.
Click to expand...
 
blackascoal said:
Here's what that former president had to say ..

We were out early on election morning and were amazed at the incredibly large turnout, with thousands of people waiting in line an hour before polls were scheduled to open. Venezuela has a system of electronic voting (with a paper ballot backup) and voters' thumbprints are recorded electronically, transmitted by satellite, and compared almost instantaneously to prevent multiple voting.
NOTE: Do you have a paper backup in your country? .. How about thumbprint identification?

A "No" vote supported Chavez, and a "Yes" vote called for his removal from office. Starting was somewhat slow, but 99.5 percent of the voting machines were on the line by 10:30 a.m. Some of the fingerprint operators did not report for duty, but this was not permitted to interfere with voting. The great waiting crowds were in fine spirits, cheering loudly everywhere we showed up.

During the day, the opposition leaders presented to us and their supporters what turned out to be erroneous exit polling data that showed Chavez losing the vote by 20 points or more, and they also sent this information to their own people and to foreign news media. However, the news media honored the CNE ruling against broadcasting any kind of alleged voting results domestically. In the meantime, long voter lines remained intact past the 4 p.m. closing time, past an extended 8 p.m. closing time, and until midnight, when they finally closed. A few people voted as late as 3 a.m.

At about 12:30 a.m., we and OAS leaders were invited to witness the disclosure of the first electronic tabulation, which showed "No" votes at 57 percent and "Yes" votes at 43 percent among the 6.6 million votes counted at that time (of 10.5 million expected to vote). Gaviria and I decided to invite the private media owners and opposition leaders to my hotel suite to let them know about this and to tell them that this was compatible with our own quick count results. The media owners and some of the opposition said they would accept our judgment while others were angry. We urged them to check their own sample voting results and stated that we would obtain updated figures next morning before making a public declaration of our judgment. We were in Venezuela to remain neutral, to observe the electoral system, and to make a careful and sound final assessment regarding whether the will of the people is expressed. Chavez called me, and I urged him to wait on any claim of victory until after a CNE public announcement and to be generous and positive in his victory statement. He promised to do so.

Finally, after three hours, we offered to the still irate opposition leaders our services in resolving any of their remaining doubts before we had to leave (after two more days). Having insisted all during election day on a 20 point defeat for Chavez, their pollster (Súmate) admitted before leaving that their data now showed only a five point defeat and that quick count data were still being received. Early the next morning, they reported that these results were reversed, with 55 percent supporting Chavez, but opposition leaders still were claiming massive fraud and a victory for their side. Final voting results, including the centers with manual ballots, showed 59-41 in favor of Chavez, with his victory in 22 of the 24 states.

Gaviria and I had another press conference early in the afternoon on Monday to confirm the legitimacy of the CNE returns. I called Secretary of State Colin Powell to report our authentication of results, and he promised to issue a statement from Washington endorsing our findings.

On Monday, we had supper with Chavez and found him eager to begin substantive dialogues with responsible opposition leaders who are willing to reciprocate. We urged him to show generosity to Súmate and some others who are being accused of crimes going back to the coup against him and to ensure a balanced membership of CNE as local and state elections are planned late in September. He was receptive to these suggestions and supported an additional audit of electronic paper ballot backups from the machines that would assuage any remaining doubters.
http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc1801.html

That former president only confirms what ALL the international observers have said, and what I believe. Venezuelan elections are fair.

My comments here address shit like this ..


and this ..


and this ..
Click to expand...

And again, even the report from the former President spoke of the violence that I pointed out. Yet all you read are the reports that you want to see. It's all good. I understand. Reports of their election perfection is exaggerated. Now let's take your advice and work to fix our systems.

Each year I work as an Election judge, observers have never had any objection to the election results in any election I have overseen. What do you do other than point out stories and defend Venezuela?

I do like their restriction on reporting results until the election is over and think we should do the same.
 
Damocles said:
And again, even the report from the former President spoke of the violence that I pointed out. Yet all you read are the reports that you want to see. It's all good. I understand. Reports of their election perfection is exaggerated. Now let's take your advice and work to fix our systems.

Each year I work as an Election judge, observers have never had any objection to the election results in any election I have overseen. What do you do other than point out stories and defend Venezuela?

I do like their restriction on reporting results until the election is over and think we should do the same.
Click to expand...

Please don't reach for the strawman. I've never said Venezuelan elections were perfect. "Fair" and "transparent" does not equal perfection. But, they are still working to improve a good system .. a better system than what we vote on but are not improving.

What have I done to fix the system here?

I was the face of the opposition to electronic faith-based voting in Georgia. In fact, my debate with Georgia's then Secretary of State, a democrat, exposed her and her cozy relationship with Diebold, and the failings of the system in such a way that she actually got up and RAN out of the auditorium. The audience thought she had to go to the bathroom real bad .. but she never returned. She ultimately lost her bid for governor .. many believe because of the failed electronic voting system she brought into the state.

I've spoken on and presented evidence of fraudulent voting on panels in several states. I've appeared as an expert witness in 7 different documentaries on the fraud of electronic voting including one made by ITN in England, one by an Australian film team, and the Drew Barrymore documentary on youth voting.

I've written extensively on the issue and I'm part of a national team of IT professionals who've worked on this issue since 2000. I know most of the leading national experts on this issue and they know me.

I was there when the fraud was conclusively proven in Leon County, Florida.

Thus my brother, from my perspective, all this fake rancor about elections in Iran and Venezuela when the fraud of electronic voting has been conclusively PROVEN for more than 4 years and nothing YET has been done about it because the American people are apathetic about the integrity of their own elections .. well it all just seems like bullshit to me .. as I'm sure it does for the rest of the planet who know the failings of the American system and the apathy of the American people.
 
blackascoal said:
Please don't reach for the strawman. I've never said Venezuelan elections were perfect. "Fair" and "transparent" does not equal perfection. But, they are still working to improve a good system .. a better system than what we vote on but are not improving.

What have I done to fix the system here?

I was the face of the opposition to electronic faith-based voting in Georgia. In fact, my debate with Georgia's then Secretary of State, a democrat, exposed her and her cozy relationship with Diebold, and the failings of the system in such a way that she actually got up and RAN out of the auditorium. The audience thought she had to go to the bathroom real bad .. but she never returned. She ultimately lost her bid for governor .. many believe because of the failed electronic voting system she brought into the state.

I've spoken on and presented evidence of fraudulent voting on panels in several states. I've appeared as an expert witness in 7 different documentaries on the fraud of electronic voting including one made by ITN in England, one by an Australian film team, and the Drew Barrymore documentary on youth voting.

I've written extensively on the issue and I'm part of a national team of IT professionals who've worked on this issue since 2000. I know most of the leading national experts on this issue and they know me.

I was there when the fraud was conclusively proven in Leon County, Florida.

Thus my brother, from my perspective, all this fake rancor about elections in Iran and Venezuela when the fraud of electronic voting has been conclusively PROVEN for more than 4 years and nothing YET has been done about it because the American people are apathetic about the integrity of their own elections .. well it all just seems like bullshit to me .. as I'm sure it does for the rest of the planet who know the failings of the American system and the apathy of the American people.
Click to expand...
Where have the documentaries aired and what made you qualified to be an expert?

Their system, again by Carter's group's report, has much the same issues as ours, with added problems (mentioned in that report I linked to). Yet you constantly promote it as "better". IMO it is at least as flawed as ours, and shows evidence of further flaws. When the Carter Group's report shows 20% of the machines malfunctioning, there is a serious issue going on.

My posts on Venezuela have been in answer to those specific claims of "better" and believe them to be exaggerated in support of your political ideology.

That said... I'd like to watch one or two of the documentaries. I successfully worked to get rid of the paperless machines in Jefferson County (no longer live there), and have been a Judge at many, many elections. I see how the system works and what safeguards have and can be put in place to make them better and using that information work towards that goal.

But that doesn't mean I can't mention problems with Iran's elections and hope that they are successful in making change happen in that nation where most of the youngsters (the vast majority of their population is under 30) seek that change.
 
Damocles said:
Where have the documentaries aired and what made you qualified to be an expert?

Their system, again by Carter's group's report, has much the same issues as ours, with added problems (mentioned in that report I linked to). Yet you constantly promote it as "better". IMO it is at least as flawed as ours, and shows evidence of further flaws. When the Carter Group's report shows 20% of the machines malfunctioning, there is a serious issue going on.

My posts on Venezuela have been in answer to those specific claims of "better" and believe them to be exaggerated in support of your political ideology.

That said... I'd like to watch one or two of the documentaries. I successfully worked to get rid of the paperless machines in Jefferson County (no longer live there), and have been a Judge at many, many elections. I see how the system works and what safeguards have and can be put in place to make them better and using that information work towards that goal.

But that doesn't mean I can't mention problems with Iran's elections and hope that they are successful in making change happen in that nation where most of the youngsters (the vast majority of their population is under 30) seek that change.
Click to expand...

The documentaries have aired in lots of places all over the world.

What made me an "expert" is that I'm an IT professional with more than 30 years in the business and an Oracle DBA which gives me specific knowledge about data, how it's stored, how it's retrieved, and most specifically, database security. That plus the fact that I stepped up to the issue and spoke out when others would not.

Discerning the truth of the fraud of electronic voting doesn't require my professional background.

I wrote legislation in Georgia that passed the Republican-controlled Georgia Senate but never made it out of committee in the Democratic-controlled House.

If you've ever written a line of code then you know that the function of counting negative votes or numbers must be purposefully programmed into the code. The Diebold software that America voted on in 2004 counted negative votes. This was exposed beyond all doubt in the Leon County Hack in 2005. Counting negative votes allows the software to shift votes from one candidate to another and still come out with the correct number of total people who voted.

I've sent you a PM with the link to a trailer to one of the documentaries .. but the best statement is the last statement in the trailer. Whenever they want to take the votes and count them in secret, you have a problem.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top