Obama Apology Tour

Southern Man said:
It is the founding document and therefore is the foundation of our laws.
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No it is not. It was a document to declare our rebellion from England. The Constitution is the founding document. When the DOI was written it did not create a nation or setup the laws on which we would be based. The Constitution did just that.

But this is still not the point. The mentioning of a deity in the DOI still does not make us a christian nation. There is no specific naming of christianity as such.

You are one who is always demanding that we return to the country based on the Constitution. You say that if it isn't enumerated in the Constitution it is not part of the government's duties or rights. But now you want to make your interpretation of any mention of "god" or "creator" to be only the christian god. That makes you a what?
 
WinterBorn said:
No it is not. It was a document to declare our rebellion from England. The Constitution is the founding document. When the DOI was written it did not create a nation or setup the laws on which we would be based. The Constitution did just that.

But this is still not the point. The mentioning of a deity in the DOI still does not make us a christian nation. There is no specific naming of christianity as such.

You are one who is always demanding that we return to the country based on the Constitution. You say that if it isn't enumerated in the Constitution it is not part of the government's duties or rights. But now you want to make your interpretation of any mention of "god" or "creator" to be only the christian god. That makes you a what?
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You are VERY wrong about the DOI! And like it or not this nation was founded on Christian and religious principles which did not come under attack until the late 19th century.

List of Founding Documents:

The Mayflower Compact
The Declaration of Independence
The Constitution
The Bill of Rights
Amendments to the Constitution (11-27)
The Federalist Papers
The Anti-Federalist Papers
 
Southern Man said:
1. Not a Christian?

2. The Senate ratified it for expediency, avoiding an up to two year delay. When the US got the upper hand with the pirates the document was revised and that section eliminated.

3. The Declaration cited the Christian God as the reason for “unalienable Rights”.
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LOL You're pathetic Dixie! LOL Keep spinning and rationalizing with a complete disregard for the facts. Hell why don't we revise the first ammendment to mean that we have freedom of religion in this nation only as long as it's fundamentalist protestantism? LOL

What a joke!
 
Southern Man said:
That conflicts directly with what you stated earlier: "As a deist he called on and praise Providence on numerous occasions."

lol poor Solitary
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You're not only dense you're obtuse. You lost the debate about a dozen postings ago and you keep going on and on with nonsense just to get last word. You're just playing "Wack-a-mole" like Dixie.
 
Mottleydude said:
What evidence do you have that those were Christian prayers?
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George Washington - Member of the Episcopal Church. In his prayer at Valley Forge he said, "Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prorate myself before Thee."
 
Ice Dancer said:
George Washington - Member of the Episcopal Church. In his prayer at Valley Forge he said, "Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prorate myself before Thee."
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Well there you go. You did what SM couldn't. Now please square that with Washington's claims in her personal correspondence, particularly with fellow Mason's, that he was Deist with Universalist inclinations?

Also, is this really evidence that Washington was a Christian or that he was deeply respectful of the Christian faith of his Soldiers?

I think this whole argument is silly. I'm a firm believe in Ocam's razor and the obvious answer here is that it was the specific intent of our founding fathers to establish a secular government that prohibited Government from respecting the establishment of religion.

Having said that, in no way shape in form did the founding fathers either advocate eliminating religion from our public life nor did they advocate the advancement of one religion over another in our public life, including Christianity. They expected "We The People" the free exercise of our religious beliefs, again, ALL RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, not just Christianity, free from Government and Political coercion.

To argue on either side of this fundamental truth is just demonstrating an amazing ignorance of our history.
 
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Southern Man said:
Which Creator were they referring to? :)
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Did they say the Christian Creator? Being there were Deist, Agnostics and others that did not consider themselves Christians. They may have believed in a Creator, but it doesn't mean the one in the Bible!
 
Mottleydude said:
Well there you go. You did what SM couldn't. Now please square that with Washington's claims in her personal correspondence, particularly with fellow Mason's, that he was Deist with Universalist inclinations?

Also, is this really evidence that Washington was a Christian or that he was deeply respectful of the Christian faith of his Soldiers?

I think this whole argument is silly. I'm a firm believe in Ocam's razor and the obvious answer here is that it was the specific intent of our founding fathers to establish a secular government that prohibited Government from respecting the establishment of religion.

Having said that, in no way shape in form did the founding fathers either advocate eliminating religion from our public life nor did they advocate the advancement of one religion over another in our public life, including Christianity. They expected "We The People" the free exercise of our religious beliefs, again, ALL RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, not just Christianity, free from Government and Political coercion.

To argue on either side of this fundamental truth is just demonstrating an amazing ignorance of our history.

To argue otherwise
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I agree that they wanted to establish a secular government i.e. one not established on a specific religion.

They did not however divorce themselves from the Christian/religious ethos when delibrating over how to frame our constitution or other founding documents. Indeed they instead used their principled beliefs and various religious faiths in framing them!

Many many persons of faith have belonged to Free Masons. Washington was a man of deep and abiding faith in the Christain God.

For more on Washington
 
Ice Dancer said:
I agree that they wanted to establish a secular government i.e. one not established on a specific religion.

They did not however divorce themselves from the Christian/religious ethos when delibrating over how to frame our constitution or other founding documents. Indeed they instead used their principled beliefs and various religious faiths in framing them!

Many many persons of faith have belonged to Free Masons. Washington was a man of deep and abiding faith in the Christain God.

For more on Washington
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Again, that just not true. Our founding fathers were profoundly impacted by the Great Philosophes of their age which included both Franklin and Jefferson. Faith had little to do with their work and Reason and Critical thinking had everything to do with it. There is a reason why that period in history is called "The Age of Reason".

The founding fathers made it perfectly clear that though faith and religion are all well and fine and important to society but Public Policy is far to important to be based on anything but reason, rational though and critical thinking.
 
Mottleydude said:
Read the sentence. Is there something about "Check your facts" you don't understand? The implication is that you are wrong on at least one of them.
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This goes back to post 89, sport. I seriously doubt there were many non-Christian chaplains in Washington's Army, but if you can produce evidence otherwise... *shrug*
 
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