Obama Apology Tour
- Thread starter RockX
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DamnYankee
Loyal to the end
LOL pwned! 
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WinterBorn
Guest
LOL pwned!
Hardly.
He believed that the creator did not interfere in the natural way of things. This belief was shared by many of the founding fathers such as Jefferson, Franklin, Ethan Allen, James Madison ect.
DamnYankee
Loyal to the end
That conflicts directly with what you stated earlier: "As a deist he called on and praise Providence on numerous occasions."
lol poor Solitary
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WinterBorn
Guest
Not at all. If this is true it also proves that he was not a christian as Providence is not a part of the christian faith.
Try reading some of Jefferson's works. You can find some very interesting ideas about religion there.
DamnYankee
Loyal to the end
W
WinterBorn
Guest
You keep claiming victory because of a modern definition of an entire way of belief does not fit a single individual's actions. Sorry but that is not how it works. Using the term Providence was a dodge of invoking the name of God.
Washington has been called a deist by scholars for decades. This debate and your misconceptions do not change that fact. Nor does my misstating or mistaking terminology.
Just as Jefferson was a deist. Which goes back to the original point of this debate that we were not founded as a christian nation.
One of the things to remember about a number of the founding fathers is that they had been exposed to and came from generations exposed to religious persecution from within the religious community.
To say that Jefferson struggled with what he believed with regards to Christianity is an understatement. Numerous life experiences caused him to think and rethink his positions and beliefs about it. But just look at other aspects of Jefferson's life and you'll see a conflicted man.
There were many godly chrsitians involved in our founding. The first document, the Mayflower Compact, was definitely written by christian men.
Some of the christain founders and signers of various documents and the Constitutional Convention.
Adams, Penn, Hancock, Bedford, Hamilton, Madison, Wahington and many others.
Here are so quotes from founders on the subject.
John Quincy Adams: "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."
Samuel Adams: "We have this day restored The Sovereign to whom all men ought to be obedient, and from the rising to the setting sun, let His kingdom come."
Samuel Adams: "In short, we should teach our young people to study the practice and the exalted virtues of the Christian system."
John Adams: "We are basing the hope of mankind in our ability to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
John Adams: "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."
George Washington - Member of the Episcopal Church. In his prayer at Valley Forge he said, "Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prorate myself before Thee."
But regardless even the Diests had a hold of the belief that a God "A God" reigned supreme.
Benjamin Franklin - Considered much more a Deist than a Christian. He was nonetheless a follower of the Bible, and said: "I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- God Governs in the Affairs of Men, And if a Sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, Is it possible that an empire can rise without His aid?...Except the Lord build the house, They labor in vain who build it."
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WinterBorn
Guest
Samuel Adams was a devote christian. I have no argument there.
But the quotes from the others are from public settings which I have already explained concerning the requirement to be seen as a christian. Their private correspondences show a different belief.
In a letter to John Taylor, John Adams said "Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious fraud that has raged and triumphed for 1500 years"
In a letter to Jefferson he wrote "The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles"
DamnYankee
Loyal to the end
1. Actually, the definition dates to the 1300's.
2. I'm well aware that "scholars" have been trying to re-write history for decades. Your misstating terminology is evidence that you've been snookered by them.
3. If Jefferson was a deist why would he claim that a Creator gave him unalienable Rights?
DamnYankee
Loyal to the end
Your argument appears to be that Adams complained about hypocrisy so was one himself.
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WinterBorn
Guest
The scholars are using correspondence of the individuals in question.
And why do you insist that Jefferson's inclusion of a "Creator" indicates only christianity?
If you look at the founding documents of our country (and the most important by far is the Constitution) they were very careful to avoid any direct connection with christianity. If they were knowingly forming a christian nation they would have certainly said so.
Your argument appears to be that Adams complained about hypocrisy so was one himself.
John Adams Father was a minister and in fact Adams wavered between beoming a minister or a lawyer before settling on the latter. In his later life he rejected the teaching of the trinity and that is which you quote him regarding. Something central to all of these men...They were all of a religious background which influenced them for the good, no matter where they landed with regards to Christ.
That men struggle with their faith is actually a part of the faith. Where you will note that struggle played out IS in their private correspondences!
John Adams - Congregationalist and later a Unitarian (he did not accept the Trinity). He said, "To enable me to maintain this declaration I rely, under God, with entire confidence on the firm and enlightened support of the national legislature and upon the virtue and patriotism of my fellow citizens." (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
Samuel Adams - Congregationalist. "We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come." Also: "The rights of the colonists as Christians...may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament." (Signer of Declaration of Independence)
The religious background of the founders
DamnYankee
Loyal to the end
1. Correction: these "scholars" have cherry-picked the historical record to suit their agenda.
2. Who else would a Cristian refer to? *shrug*
3. In the Constitution, where exactly do you thing the "Blessings of Liberty" are attributed to?
4. The fact is that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, deists, atheists and other faiths should be damn glad that the US is a Christan nation and therefore has the tolerance for them.
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WinterBorn
Guest
Scholars have found correspondence in which they condemned christianity in general. That is not cherry picking.
An enlightened man would refer to a deity in general terms and not put it to a specific religion's beliefs.
There is no indication that the blessing of liberty was a reference to christianity.
So you are claiming that anyone of a different faith should be grateful for the tolerance of christians? WTF? Christianity has been as untolerant as any group on too many occasions. Christianity should be grateful that they were allowed to run rampant over the Constitution for so long and to get away with being the only accepted faith by government officials (not the government itself) for so long. The good news is that the last 50 years have seen us getting back closer and closer to the original intent of the founding fathers.
DamnYankee
Loyal to the end
When they put pen to paper on the DOI they asserted their belief in the Christian God.
DamnYankee
Loyal to the end
This rack of bullshit deserves its own thread!
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WinterBorn
Guest
When they put pen to paper they asserted their belief in some god. There is nothing in that document that says anything about christianity or the christian god.
And the DOI is not the document on which we are governed. The Constitution is the basis for our nation and that document is what our nation was formed upon.
W
WinterBorn
Guest
This rack of bullshit deserves its own thread!
Make a thread concerning your own interpretation that any reference to God automatically refers to christianity. You should be able to post volumes on that.
But as for me I am leaving soon to enjoy a great weekend boating.
DamnYankee
Loyal to the end
It is the founding document and therefore is the foundation of our laws.