Coercive Interrogations Worked

Grind said:
War isn't about equality and fairness BAC it's about killing the other side and breaking things. If I am in a war I want the other side dead and I want my guys alive. So it's a stupid question for you to ask if I want us soldiers tortured. of course I don't.

But if your premise is, because we torture, the other side will torture us, I am not convinced by your single jessica lynch story that they wouldn't already be tortuing us.

But lets pretend we live in your fantasy world where no one at this time would torture our soldiers, but would if we started using torture, I still say yes we would need to torture in extreme circumstances.

These circumstances are defined by me as imminent disaster "ticking time bomb" scnearios in which millions of lives are at risk and we have a solid reason to suspect someone may have information to prevent such an occurance.

If it's about finding a piece of enemy artillery in the field or something of that nature, no I probably wouldn't support torture. Only extreme circumstances.

I do not believe torture in all circumstances is wrong.
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You just don't get it. It's about principles and the rule of law. We consider torture immoral and illegal. How can we support the rule of law if we don't follow the law our selves?

BAC is right. Torture is not only ineffective, it's stupid.
 
Grind said:
One would also tell the truth if they knew it.

This is how torture works:

You torture someone, they give you information. You then verify said information. If it comes back false, you determine if it is likely that your terror suspect was still lying while being jabbed by hot pokers. Usually that's not the case. Because as you said, you'll say anything while being tortured, including the truth.
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So you torture a bunch of people until you find out the "truth?"

There are tens of thousands of dead and horribly wounded US soldiers who are dead and wounded because of FALSE information extracted by torture .. which doesn't include hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis and the loss of American influence, stature, and power because of a position and administration that you support brother.

How much "truth" did we get out of that tortured information?

Torture has been used throughout history to extract SOUGHT AFTER FALSE INFORMATION .. something that you keep ignoring my brother .. as you ignored people who were telling you the truth about Iraq .. without being tortured.
 
Mottleydude said:
Almost that exact scenario is in the movie. Dirty Harry (Clint Eastwood) shoots and tortures kidnapper to get information. Kidnapper lies to him and girl dies anyways.
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Get some crocodile shears, and drive around with the guy until he shows you. If he lies, increase the tension.

He'll break.
 
blackascoal said:
So you torture a bunch of people until you find out the "truth?"

There are tens of thousands of dead and horribly wounded US soldiers who are dead and wounded because of FALSE information extracted by torture .. which doesn't include hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis and the loss of American influence, stature, and power because of a position and administration that you support brother.

How much "truth" did we get out of that tortured information?
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There is a difference between having a carte blance torture policy and going after someone who is very likely to have information. For example, bin laden, or other high up commanders.

Torture has been used throughout history to extract SOUGHT AFTER FALSE INFORMATION .
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Yes it has, and it was use for that PURPOSE. Obviously I am not advocating that, I am advocating the use of torture in an extreme scenario to save lives, not to trump up charges.

Torture can obviously work in some circumstances. To deny this is to be intellectually dishonest.
 
Mottleydude said:
Yes, for the most part. That principle sure as hell was tarnished during the Bush years though not as badly as it was during the Nixon years.
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:lmao:

atf agents trying to coerce private citizens in to making illegal guns,
dea agents trying to sell controlled substances to private citizens,
fbi agents trying to convince private citizens to launder money,
I could go on and on.....

the government is not your friend, dear naive one, they are your enemy. they are not there to help you, but to turn you in to a criminal so they can better control you. they will NOT hold themselves to the same laws that they hold us to.
 
Grind said:
War isn't about equality and fairness BAC it's about killing the other side and breaking things. If I am in a war I want the other side dead and I want my guys alive. So it's a stupid question for you to ask if I want us soldiers tortured. of course I don't.
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It's not a stupid question, it's a question you don't like because it exposes the absurdity of your position. If you condone the torture of others, you condone the torture of our troops AND civilians.

Should your mother be picked up and tortured? According to your position, of course she should if someone needed information they think she has.

But if your premise is, because we torture, the other side will torture us, I am not convinced by your single jessica lynch story that they wouldn't already be tortuing us.
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It wasn't meant to convince you, it was a statement of fact. Some were tortured and some were not, but according to you, they all should be tortured.

But lets pretend we live in your fantasy world where no one at this time would torture our soldiers, but would if we started using torture, I still say yes we would need to torture in extreme circumstances.

These circumstances are defined by me as imminent disaster "ticking time bomb" scnearios in which millions of lives are at risk and we have a solid reason to suspect someone may have information to prevent such an occurance.
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You've been watching too much "24." It doesn't happen like that in the real world and there is no Jack Bauer.

If it's about finding a piece of enemy artillery in the field or something of that nature, no I probably wouldn't support torture. Only extreme circumstances.
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You mean like "Where is the WMD?" .. which didn't produce WMD only the loss of countless innocent life and the end of the American Century.

Great work.

I do not believe torture in all circumstances is wrong.
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You mean it's only OK for circumstances of your choosing and to people you don't like.

The world doesn't work that way either.
 
Grind said:
mot:
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I'll answer.

Intelligence would tell me that I couldn't trust anything said by someone who would kidnap my daughter .. and knowing that, I would pursue a more reliable method of saving her.

Would I kill him, absolutely I would. But torture is stupid and a waste of valuable time.
 
blackascoal said:
The answer to that question is yes.

See how easy that was.

How about you answering the question of if US soldiers AND civilians should be tortured .. without the misplaced metaphors.
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If we, as humans, refused to fight, then there would be no killing.

Yes, when we engage in war we expect casualties. We can, as humans, make the war as "just" as possible. Just war just seems oxymoronic to me.

Protection of family, friends and country would be the only reason to take up arms and to kill another. It still would be very hard for me to imagine myself doing it.
 
Nope, we haven't seen it for a long time. It truly is history, but maybe, that will change for the whole world.
 
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