Venezuela Referendum: Chavez Wins Vote To End Term Limits

Superfreak said:
Missed that last part.... dramatically improved their lives? Really? Then tell me.... why do they still try to ESCAPE? Why do they have to ESCAPE on doors and make-shift life rafts? If it is so great why is that BAC?

Tell me... are their infant mortality rates calculated in the same manner as ours? I would guess not.... but I am sure a good socialist like you knows.

Some of the best doctors in the world???? LMAO.... is that why so many of the worlds elite go to Cuba for treatments?
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Here's the joy of debating you on this issue. You have no clue what research is my brother. Can't spell google.

Cuba exports doctors all over the world AND people from all over the world travelk to Cuba for treatment, including Americans. In fact, health tourism is a big part of the Cuban economy. Healthcare is guaranteed to every Cuban in their constitution. Cuba's doctor-to-patient ratio is THE best in the world and their medical reserach is studied all over the world.

And yes, their infant mortality and life expectancy are calcultaed in the exact same manner our is. Sorry if that steps on your belief Americans are chosen by God.

Doesn't take much research to discover these truths. You're operating on indoctrination brother, not information.
 
Superfreak said:
No, I did not miss your point. You missed mine. You dont need to spend money on elections when you control the media, the oil industry and every aspect of the government. You simply have to force them all to support your agenda.

I am sure the opposition feels everything is fair... I am sure there are plenty of quotes that you can provide. After all, we know Chavez wouldn't do anything to anyone who criticizes him. I mean Chavez wouldn't kick anyone out of his country for criticizing the process would he? Oh wait, he would. I wonder what he would do to opposition from someone within the country? Probably take after Castro there too... hire a butcher like Che and let him murder people in cold blood and then pretend it was a 'revolution'.

As for 15 months ago vs now... Chavez didn't have the control that he now has... like I said... you want one person to have control over everything. You want a dictator. Soon we will see exactly what we see in Cuba... proclamations on how great their healthcare is because it is 'free' yet people doing anything and everything to escape the misery.

Side note... the tax cuts are not what caused the problems we are seeing. It was idiotic policies designed to force lending to anyone and everyone all so 'more people could own homes'. That is not capitalism BAC... that is government intereference. After that, capitalism did indeed run wild and loose and we are paying the price for it now. But this all began with the idiots in DC.
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I don't know how to be more clear my friend, your thoughts are removed from reality. You discount everything that doesn't fit your preconcieved false notions of truth.

You've never heard me once suggest, say, infer, or even slightly intimate that I want a dictator. That's nonsense .. and dictators don't get elected .. in FAIR elections, FAIR as determined by every international standard of FAIR.

Did you somehow miss my points of why the measure was passed this time? Is there a reason you didn't challenge those points and instead go back to repeating the same unstudied, unlearned comments?

ALL industrialized nations in the world have nationalized healthcare .. did that bring dictatorship to Canada or England?

I bet we could have a great conversation about this if you were better informed.
 
blackascoal said:
Is today like National Bizzaro Day?

Everything you said here was totally removed from reality.

You completely missed my point that money controls elections and winners in America. It went right over your head and instead you dove into some ideological bullshit that ignores the fact that elections in Venezuela are fair, as evidenced even by comments from the opposition. I can provide those comments for you if you don't know how to find them yourself.

Their elections are fair and provide far more integrity than American elections, as evidenced by a great many sources, which I can provide for you if you don't know how to find them yourself.

Here's a brain-teaser for you .. about 15 months ago Chavez tried to pass the exact same measure .. it failed. Chavez was in power just as he is today. See if you can find where your point is ridiculous.

Here's why the measure passed this time ..
1. It was the only measure they were voting on, unlike last time.
2. He wisely included extending it to all politicians, thus virtually all politicians were foir it and actively campaigned for it.
3. Heavy media saturation .. which is EXACTLY what MONEY would buy in America. State-control in Venezuela is essentially the same as money control in America where money is the state.

Even with all of that, the measure passed bu 9%. People had no fear of voting NO.

And all that crap about tax cuts .. how's that working out for you? More importantly, how's it working out for the country? Bush passed the biggest tax cuts in history .. prior to the even bigger tax cuts in the so-called stimulus plan. Yet, American wages, savings, and upwartd mobility didn't budge an inch. In fact, they haven't budged in a generation.

And since you mentioned Castro .. he did the same thing in Cuba and dramatically improved the lives of average Cubans. They have some of the best doctors in the world and their infant mortality and literacy rates are better than ours. Wasn't even close before Castro came to power.

Trust me, it's a lot of fun debating socialism with people like you my brother.
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And this is why so many people risk their lives and the lives of their children to get on car hoods and paddle 90 miles in the hopes of reaching Florida before being found out by the coast guard. How many people a year leave Florida the same way hoping to get to Cuba? Castro murdered people for doing nothing more than holding government jobs. Castro imprisoned his own supporters after they criticized him for not living up to his promise of re-instituting their constitution. You point to literacy rates and infant mortality as a way to counter his murder and imprisonment of political dissenters. You can't rewrite history. Castro was cut from the same cloth as Batista, you only like him because his cloth came from the extreme left side of the bolt.
 
blackascoal said:
Here's the joy of debating you on this issue. You have no clue what research is my brother. Can't spell google.

Cuba exports doctors all over the world AND people from all over the world travelk to Cuba for treatment, including Americans. In fact, health tourism is a big part of the Cuban economy. Healthcare is guaranteed to every Cuban in their constitution. Cuba's doctor-to-patient ratio is THE best in the world and their medical reserach is studied all over the world.

And yes, their infant mortality and life expectancy are calcultaed in the exact same manner our is. Sorry if that steps on your belief Americans are chosen by God.

Doesn't take much research to discover these truths. You're operating on indoctrination brother, not information.
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We are done if you are going to start inserting idiocy. Nowhere did I state or imply that Americans are chosen by God.

You can also put away the ignorance of your comments on Google. Because do try it yourself... I did input Cuba infant mortality and WHO standards and could not find confirmation of whether they adhere to those standards or not.

I was wrong on people going to Cuba for healthcare. They do for cheaper plastic surgery, rehab and cancer treatments.
 
blackascoal said:
I don't know how to be more clear my friend, your thoughts are removed from reality. You discount everything that doesn't fit your preconcieved false notions of truth.

You've never heard me once suggest, say, infer, or even slightly intimate that I want a dictator. That's nonsense .. and dictators don't get elected .. in FAIR elections, FAIR as determined by every international standard of FAIR.

Did you somehow miss my points of why the measure was passed this time? Is there a reason you didn't challenge those points and instead go back to repeating the same unstudied, unlearned comments?

ALL industrialized nations in the world have nationalized healthcare .. did that bring dictatorship to Canada or England?

I bet we could have a great conversation about this if you were better informed.
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When one man controls the media, the military, the countries largest revenue stream and the government.... then yes, that certainly taints the 'elections'. Especially when said person kicks out international observors who dare to criticize him.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/02/14/venezuela-envoy.html

Nowhere did I state that having nationalized healthcare was what led to a dictator. Continuing to insert idiocy into this discussion does nothing for you.

AS for your 15 months ago... I did comment on it... he did not have the same level of control that he has today. Yes, essentially ending term limits across the board meant more politicans would support it. That proves nothing other than they want jobs for life too. Like I said, Chavez controls the media, the military, the revenue and kicks his critics out of the country. That is the makings of a dictator.
 
Socrtease said:
And this is why so many people risk their lives and the lives of their children to get on car hoods and paddle 90 miles in the hopes of reaching Florida before being found out by the coast guard. How many people a year leave Florida the same way hoping to get to Cuba? Castro murdered people for doing nothing more than holding government jobs. Castro imprisoned his own supporters after they criticized him for not living up to his promise of re-instituting their constitution. You point to literacy rates and infant mortality as a way to counter his murder and imprisonment of political dissenters. You can't rewrite history. Castro was cut from the same cloth as Batista, you only like him because his cloth came from the extreme left side of the bolt.
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Shit, this is a fun thread.

You guys keep dropping in with kucklehead thought from Mars. I'm trying to work, but damn, this is fun.

Why do some Cubans get on make-shift rafts and float to Florida .. looking for the land with streets paved with gold.

Any idea what percentage of Cubans get on rafts to float out of the country?

When Batista was in power and Cuban women were performing donkey-shows for the entertainment of American businessman and the mafia who controlled Batista, the Cuban people rose up and kicked him, American business, and the mafia the fuck out of Cuba. Keep in mind I'm talking about the same Cuban people who removed Batista, who ruled with a much tighter fist than Castro .. yet Castro is seeing his 11th US President since he's been in power.

You can wiggle you can squirm all you want, but the lives of average Cubans have improved dramatically under Castro than Batista, who like all capitalist created dictators, hoarded much of the Cuban wealth for himself. That's what history tells my brother, not your imdoctrinated psuedo-history mind-fuck. Castro declared the donkey-shows and the denigration of Cuban people would end with Batista, and it did.

And yes, their paranoia of America and its power led them to overstep the rights of many .. which happens when you know the CIA is trying to kill you. I don't agree with everything Cuban, but do you agree with everything American?

What I like is a society focused on the best interests of its people.
 
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Superfreak said:
We are done if you are going to start inserting idiocy. Nowhere did I state or imply that Americans are chosen by God.

You can also put away the ignorance of your comments on Google. Because do try it yourself... I did input Cuba infant mortality and WHO standards and could not find confirmation of whether they adhere to those standards or not.

I was wrong on people going to Cuba for healthcare. They do for cheaper plastic surgery, rehab and cancer treatments.
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Don't get your panties twisted brother .. I'm just having fun with your lack of knowledge on a subject you speak with such authority on. You are wrong about a lot of things you said about Cuba.

The World Health Organization doesn't have seperate standards for different countries. People don't just go to Cuba because it's cheaper, they often go because of their advances in medicine, like in thyroid and cancer treatment.

As I said, and you found funny, Cuba has some of the best doctors in the world and a world-class healthcare system. That's fact pure and simple.

But that pill doesn't go down well with those who denigrate socialism. It's a slap in the face to the knee-jerk reactions that come with the very mention of socialism.
 
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blackascoal said:
Don't get your panties twisted brother .. I'm just having fun with your lack of knowledge on a subject you speak with such authority on. You are wrong about a lot of things you said about Cuba.

The World Health Organization doesn't have seperate standards for different countries. People don't just go to Cuba because it's cheaper, they often go because of their advances in medicine, like in thyroid and cancer treatment.

As I said, and you found funny, Cuba has some of the best doctors in the world and a world-class healthcare system. That's fact pure and simple.

But that pill doesn't go down well with those who denigrate socialism. It's a slap in the face to the knee-jerk reactions that come with the very mention of socialism.
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LMAO... I know WHO doesn't have different standards BAC... that is NOT what I said. The point is that not all countries ADHERE to WHO standards when reporting infant mortality. The point is I could not find an answer one way or the other. If they adhere to WHO, then it is the same as the US, if not then its comparing apples to oranges.
 
Superfreak said:
LMAO... I know WHO doesn't have different standards BAC... that is NOT what I said. The point is that not all countries ADHERE to WHO standards when reporting infant mortality. The point is I could not find an answer one way or the other. If they adhere to WHO, then it is the same as the US, if not then its comparing apples to oranges.
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Good point.

My point is that I already know the WHO sets the same standards for Cuba as the US and investigates adherance to their standards .. but a source you might be more comfortable relying on is this one ..
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html

It's the CIA

Cuba now has a 99.8% literacy rate and life expectancy is almost 80 years old, both far removed from pre-Castro.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/cu.html
 
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blackascoal said:
Good point.

My point is that I already know the WHO sets the same standards for Cuba as the US and investigates adherance to their standards .. but a source you might be more comfortable relying on is this one ..
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html

It's the CIA

Cuba now has a 99.8% literacy rate and life expectancy is almost 80 years old, both far removed from pre-Castro.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/cu.html
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Again, it is not a question of WHO setting the same standards. It is a question of DOES CUBA ADHERE TO THE WHO STANDARDS.

The CIA link is the same data that is available everywhere. But it does not state which countries numbers use WHO and which do not. If you do not know, that is fine and understandable since I also could not find the info one way or the other.

I love how you cling to the healthcare and literacy. Now tell us how their manufacturing is, how their income per capita is, what is their infrastrucure like, what happens to those who voice negative opinions of Castro, WHY do people feel compelled to flee the country on make shift rafts.
 
Superfreak said:
Again, it is not a question of WHO setting the same standards. It is a question of DOES CUBA ADHERE TO THE WHO STANDARDS.

The CIA link is the same data that is available everywhere. But it does not state which countries numbers use WHO and which do not. If you do not know, that is fine and understandable since I also could not find the info one way or the other.

I love how you cling to the healthcare and literacy. Now tell us how their manufacturing is, how their income per capita is, what is their infrastrucure like, what happens to those who voice negative opinions of Castro, WHY do people feel compelled to flee the country on make shift rafts.
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:)

You're not listening. I know, the CIA knows, and the WHO knows .. you're the one in the dark. Before Cuba having one of the best healthcare systems in the world was laughable .. now you're concerned about adhering to standards .. as if the CIA and the WHO don't know what they're talking about .. as if the CIA is anxious to declare Cuba has a better iunfant mortality rate than ours.

Whatever the state of Cuba today it would have been a lot better without US sanctions .. but we have no such artificial impediments to our economy ..

How is your manufacturing?

How is your infrastructure?

How about banking?

How is your economy?

Cubans leave Cuba for the dream of a land of plenty AND you might notice a distinct characteristic about exiled Cubans .. Naw, better not get into that.
 
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blackascoal said:
:)

You're not listening. I know, the CIA knows, and the WHO knows .. you're the one in the dark. Before Cuba having one of the best healthcare systems in the world was laughable .. now you're concerned about adhering to standards .. as is the CIA and the WHO don't know what they're talking about.

Whatever the state of Cuba today it would have been a lot better without US sanctions .. but we have no such artificial impediments to our economy ..

How is your manufacturing?

How is your infrastructure?

How about banking?

How is your economy?
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YOU are not listening. If YOU know, then provide a link to something showing it. Its that simple oh master of the google. Surely if you know then you will have no problem finding a link that states they report using WHO standards.

LMAO... so I take it this means you are not going to answer any of the questions with regards to their economy. You will just point to the US as a diversion?
 
Superfreak said:
YOU are not listening. If YOU know, then provide a link to something showing it. Its that simple oh master of the google. Surely if you know then you will have no problem finding a link that states they report using WHO standards.

LMAO... so I take it this means you are not going to answer any of the questions with regards to their economy. You will just point to the US as a diversion?
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Pretty demanding for someone who didn't know shit about this until I slapped you with it.

Now, the CIA and WHO determinations aren't good enough.

Since you need to be held by the hand to lead you to truth, try this ..
http://www.who.int/countries/cub/en/

If you still don't get it, go here
www.cartoonnetwork.com
 
blackascoal said:
Pretty demanding for someone who didn't know shit about this until I slapped you with it.

Now, the CIA and WHO determinations aren't good enough.

Since you need to be held by the hand to lead you to truth, try this ..
http://www.who.int/countries/cub/en/

If you still don't get it, go here
www.cartoonnetwork.com
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http://www.overpopulation.com/articles/2002/cuba-vs-the-united-states-on-infant-mortality/

The above is why I asked... because I have seen articles/op-eds such as this before.

So get your panties out of a bunch. This is the first link you have provided that was even remotely useful. The CIA site simply listed mortality rates, it did not list or mention what standards had been applied in coming to those numbers.

So if your panties are still in a bunch go to...

idontgiveafuk.com
 
Superfreak said:
http://www.overpopulation.com/articles/2002/cuba-vs-the-united-states-on-infant-mortality/

The above is why I asked... because I have seen articles/op-eds such as this before.

So get your panties out of a bunch. This is the first link you have provided that was even remotely useful. The CIA site simply listed mortality rates, it did not list or mention what standards had been applied in coming to those numbers.

So if your panties are still in a bunch go to...

idontgiveafuk.com
Click to expand...

Aww dude.. don't go away mad. We're family here and I just having fun with you, much as I do with everybody who doesn't know shit about socialism.

The link I provided isn't just "remotely useful", it's end of story you have run out of argument useful. Do you have any idea why the WHO is THE benchmark for global health issues and is used by every nation on the planet? It's because they investigate and ensure all nations are judged by the same standards. Your anti-socialist beliefs inhibit you from accepting the truth.

Questions about skewered statistics aside, it is an undeniable fact that Cubans have a world-class health system, the best doctor/patient ratio in the world, and a respected and viable health tourism industry.

You didn't know any of that .. now you do.
 
All of that is true, but the reality is they'll still drive up to the beach, remove the car doors, create a raft and paddle their way to Florida.

Why do they do that if it is the beneficent blissful heaven you describe?

(Of course the doctors would kill for some of our equipment).

If I was going to become a doctor I would love to study in Cuba. But there is a reason people are that desperate to get out, it isn't because living there is pleasant.
 
this is beyond comical,
I have seen 1 story of anyone rafting back to Cuba.
I have seen many Cubans and Mexicans sending millions back to their country.
Wow BAC you'd be a great leaft politician but take a wiff of the real world son.
They drive 40yr old american cars in Cuba and Mexico. I bet you don't.
 
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