Same Sex Marriages

Dutch Uncle said:
There's the man and the legend that grew up around him be it Jesse James, FDR or Jesus. There's no doubt in my mind a lot of the stories "proving" the divinity of Jesus were found post-mortem.

Try telling a kid there's no Santa Claus, it's all a big lie and they'll be pissed at you. Explaining that Santa is really the love parents have for their child would make the child happy. Both are true, but one is negative and the other is positive. I favor the latter approach.

OTOH, some children are insane and need medication. :D
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When I first got a computer back in the mid-90s I used to enjoy forums and chat rooms that were either political or about religions. Eventually I grew away from the religious ones because there was, in the end, no answer to my questions. The discussions did help me refine my own path (pagan) and articulate my own beliefs, so they did have value.

Basically, IMO, our personal paths come down to what most satisfies our soul. All mainstream religions, and most pagan ones as well, come from the opinions of human beings. There is no proven divinity in any of them; they consist only of myths, legends, and personal opinions and interpretations. This is also true of all supposedly god-given religious scriptures as well as texts about them. Those who see themselves as very devout quote from these scriptures as though they are golden, either ignoring or unaware that they were actually created by other humans with their own agendas. The militant atheists are/were just as bad. There is no reaching these ppl. I'm content to live and let live, until they get in my face.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
When I first got a computer back in the mid-90s I used to enjoy forums and chat rooms that were either political or about religions. Eventually I grew away from the religious ones because there was, in the end, no answer to my questions. The discussions did help me refine my own path (pagan) and articulate my own beliefs, so they did have value.

Basically, IMO, our personal paths come down to what most satisfies our soul. All mainstream religions, and most pagan ones as well, come from the opinions of human beings. There is no proven divinity in any of them; they consist only of myths, legends, and personal opinions and interpretations. This is also true of all supposedly god-given religious scriptures as well as texts about them. Those who see themselves as very devout quote from these scriptures as though they are golden, either ignoring or unaware that they were actually created by other humans with their own agendas. The militant atheists are/were just as bad. There is no reaching these ppl. I'm content to live and let live, until they get in my face.
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Live and let live is the best policy. Most of those you wrote about aren't doing that. Fortunately, most people do.

IRL, the loudmouthed Christians, Satanists and Atheists are often despised by all.
 
IBDaMann said:
Now you are disparraging Islam. Islam mandates that all must be assimilated, by the sword if necessary (in a "mostly peaceful" way of course).
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Well, that is not only a diversion but a logical fallacy of the hasty generalization variety. One could also make the claim that Christianity was spread at the point of a musket. Millions of indigenous people of the Americas can attest to that.

On the flip side, I commend you for not even trying to dispute my actual point that most Americans are blinded by the Protestant dogma of biblical literalism, and remain largely unaware of Christian theological tradition in the broader world outside the bible thumping USA deep south.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
The concept of the Trinity took a few hundred years to formalize. IMO, the books of the Bible were selected from hundreds to push a specific premise and ideology. Early Christians believed all sorts of things after the Crucifixion. Jesus was seen as a great rabbi by all budding Christians but not as being divine by all. There were fights among the Christians even as they were fighting both the Romans and conservative Jews. In short, all of the Jesus-is-divine crowd killed off those Christians who didn't believe Jesus was divine.

The main story of Jesus was to bring everyone closer to God, but the Jesus Fan Club often acts like those Christians of old killing off anyone who doesn't accept their specific beliefs.
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I had to school Pimp on the evolution of Trinity orthodoxy last week.

After the council of Nicea, the Christians who emphasized Jesus' humanity over his divinity were declared heretics. The Nestorian Christians were driven to central Asia, and I believe the Arian Christians were driven to Africa and the fringes of the Roman Empire. As you are undoubtedly aware, one cannot understand the history of western civilization without knowing the history of Christianity.

I always remind myself that to this day, there remain non-Trinitarian Christians. The Unitarians and Universalist emphasize Jesus' humanity, not divinity, and many would consider him a human prophet who was an instrument of the divine.
 
Cypress said:
Well, that is not only a diversion but a logical fallacy of the hasty generalization variety.
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Learn some logic first. I'll school you until you do.

Cypress said:
One could also make the claim that Christianity was spread at the point of a musket.
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True, and this is diversionary. It has nothing to do with your disparagement of Islam.

Cypress said:
Millions of indigenous people of the Americas can attest to that.
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... or zero can. I wonder whose figure is correct.

Cypress said:
On the flip side, I commend you for not even trying to dispute my actual point that most Americans are blinded by the Protestant dogma of biblical literalism, and remain largely unaware of Christian theological tradition in the broader world outside the bible thumping USA deep south.
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Your "point" is not an argument but merely a (mis)characterization. I am an atheist and I have my own characterizations of the different denominations. Yours falls somewhere between "unhelpful" and "simply incorrect."

Your entire approach of maligning an opposing faith while not including your rationale for why your view is so much better is an inherently cowardly act. You motivate external observers such as myself to openly mock you. You are obviously ashamed of your own faith.
 
Cypress said:
I had to school Pimp on the evolution of Trinity orthodoxy last week.

After the council of Nicea, the Christians who emphasized Jesus' humanity over his divinity were declared heretics. The Nestorian Christians were driven to central Asia, and I believe the Arian Christians were driven to Africa and the fringes of the Roman Empire. As you are undoubtedly aware, one cannot understand the history of western civilization without knowing the history of Christianity.

I always remind myself that to this day, there remain non-Trinitarian Christians. The Unitarians and Universalist emphasize Jesus' humanity, not divinity, and many would consider him a human prophet who was an instrument of the divine.
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Agreed both on the summary of Christian history and understanding the rise of Western Civilization is inextricably linked with Christianity.

Questions remain: Did the rise of Christianity follow the rise of Western Civilization and technical progress or vice-versa? Was it synergistic? My belief is it was synergistic.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, but the countries where it is growing are among the poorest, most ripped off parts of the planet. Compare those nations today to non-colonial Euro and North American nations 100-200 years ago. Those poorer nations will catch up a lot faster than ours did. Nonetheless, the vast majority of Muslims are as peaceful and with the same goals as most other humans: take care of their families, find happiness and be left alone by hostile forces.
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The bolded remains to be seen, but I want to be clear in my statement here. I'm not actually denigrating Muslims. I think they get a lot of things right that the West has gotten wrong.

They tend to be far more traditional and nationalistic than Westerners. They have pride in their cultures, and they don't spend all their time guilting each other over past ills.

They also don't buy into the many lies of modern feminism or submit to the trans agenda. So I agree that they are mostly focused on caring for their families, precisely because they actually value the family unit.
 
Cypress said:
Well, that is not only a diversion but a logical fallacy of the hasty generalization variety.
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Fallacy fallacy. No compositional error or generalization was made. Read the Koran. Islam makes this mandate.
Cypress said:
One could also make the claim that Christianity was spread at the point of a musket.
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That you could, but you would be wrong.
Cypress said:
Millions of indigenous people of the Americas can attest to that.
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No. One, they are dead. They can't explain anything. Two, they didn't join Christianity under such duress, but stuck to their own religions.
Cypress said:
On the flip side, I commend you for not even trying to dispute my actual point that most Americans are blinded by the Protestant dogma of biblical literalism, and remain largely unaware of Christian theological tradition in the broader world outside the bible thumping USA deep south.
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Compositional error fallacy. Bigotry. You don't get to speak for most Americans. You only get to speak for you.
 
Woko Haram said:
The bolded remains to be seen, but I want to be clear in my statement here. I'm not actually denigrating Muslims. I think they get a lot of things right that the West has gotten wrong.

They tend to be far more traditional and nationalistic than Westerners. They have pride in their cultures, and they don't spend all their time guilting each other over past ills.

They also don't buy into the many lies of modern feminism or submit to the trans agenda. So I agree that they are mostly focused on caring for their families, precisely because they actually value the family unit.
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It's already been "seen". Undeveloped nations develop faster with interaction with developed nations. What will always be unique about the United States is that we not only forged a new nation but developed democracy in the wilderness. Note, however, we used western technology to do it. Tech can be used for good or bad and, in the modern world, it's mostly used for good. Yes, the undeveloped nations will develop faster than those of our ancestors, but they'll still have to suffer the same growing pains.

Traditional = Conservative. Same for Nationalistic. Nothing wrong with either unless those traits start adversely affecting the lives of others. Inalienable rights and all that, donchaknow.

What "lies of modern feminism" are you whining about?
 
Dutch Uncle said:
It's already been "seen". Undeveloped nations develop faster with interaction with developed nations. What will always be unique about the United States is that we not only forged a new nation but developed democracy in the wilderness. Note, however, we used western technology to do it. Tech can be used for good or bad and, in the modern world, it's mostly used for good. Yes, the undeveloped nations will develop faster than those of our ancestors, but they'll still have to suffer the same growing pains.
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I thought you were referring to cultural development. Yes, economically and technologically, they are developing faster, but culturally, that's not always the case. Granted, some of what is considered "developing" is not always good.

Dutch Uncle said:
Traditional = Conservative. Same for Nationalistic. Nothing wrong with either unless those traits start adversely affecting the lives of others. Inalienable rights and all that, donchaknow.

What "lies of modern feminism" are you whining about?
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Well, the gender wage gap is one. Another is the patriarchy nonsense they often bloviate about. What they fail to realize is that some of the patriarchal aspects of society actually benefit women. The sexual revolution was largely negative for women, for example.
 
Woko Haram said:
I thought you were referring to cultural development. Yes, economically and technologically, they are developing faster, but culturally, that's not always the case. Granted, some of what is considered "developing" is not always good.

Well, the gender wage gap is one. Another is the patriarchy nonsense they often bloviate about. What they fail to realize is that some of the patriarchal aspects of society actually benefit women. The sexual revolution was largely negative for women, for example.
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Cultural development goes hand in hand with technological developments and prosperity of the middle class. US tech is among the best but the decreasing size of the US middle class could be a problem. Cultures vary. There's a big difference between US and Japanese culture but there's no denying both are prosperous and successful forms of democracy. Same goes for post-WWII Western Europe. Why do you think Muslim nations would be any different?

Would you rather be a rich slave or a poor freeman? I would rather be free and poor than have all my needs cared for but be less than a First Class citizen.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Cultural development goes hand in hand with technological developments and prosperity of the middle class. US tech is among the best but the decreasing size of the US middle class could be a problem. Cultures vary. There's a big difference between US and Japanese culture but there's no denying both are prosperous and successful forms of democracy. Same goes for post-WWII Western Europe. Why do you think Muslim nations would be any different?

Would you rather be a rich slave or a poor freeman? I would rather be free and poor than have all my needs cared for but be less than a First Class citizen.
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Words of wisdom there.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Cultural development goes hand in hand with technological developments and prosperity of the middle class. US tech is among the best but the decreasing size of the US middle class could be a problem. Cultures vary. There's a big difference between US and Japanese culture but there's no denying both are prosperous and successful forms of democracy. Same goes for post-WWII Western Europe. Why do you think Muslim nations would be any different?

Would you rather be a rich slave or a poor freeman? I would rather be free and poor than have all my needs cared for but be less than a First Class citizen.
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I used to feel that way, but if I'm being honest, I'd much rather live as a wealthy Singaporean than as a free Indian. For me, it's a balance. There's an extent to which I prefer a high standard of living over a high level of political freedoms.

I also have my doubts in democracy overall. I use Singapore as an example, because they technically have a democratic government, but their political freedoms are considerably lower than ours, and the government functions as a technocracy. Yet, they have one of the highest standards of living in the world -- arguably higher than ours.
 
Woko Haram said:
I used to feel that way, but if I'm being honest, I'd much rather live as a wealthy Singaporean than as a free Indian. For me, it's a balance. There's an extent to which I prefer a high standard of living over a high level of political freedoms.

I also have my doubts in democracy overall. I use Singapore as an example, because they technically have a democratic government, but their political freedoms are considerably lower than ours, and the government functions as a technocracy. Yet, they have one of the highest standards of living in the world -- arguably higher than ours.
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So the question remains would you rather be a wealthy Singaporean living in a nice 3 bedroom apartment or a poor American living on ten acres in an old two bedroom single wide?
 
Woko Haram said:
Singaporean, for sure.
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Odd that you'd prefer an authoritarian utopia over freedom but it's your choice to choose the Blue Pill.

OTOH, hundreds of Trophy Wives choose the same path. Something you and Melania would have in common.
 
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