Century-old Francis Scott Key monument defaced with 'racist anthem' in Baltimore

[Darth Omar]

who said anything about Marxism? why are you dragging that up?
The danger is whtewashing history so everything is judged by todays standards.

The Star Spangled Banner is a very stirring poem ( it was written as a poem,not a song):
I'm from Baltimore and spent many days doing a day trip to Ft. McHenry..
One imagines the British fleet sailing down the Chesapeake Bay -never to threaten these United States again after the brave citizens of Baltimore set them back

do you want to white wash all this because F Scott Key had slaves? Jefferson had slaves? white wash him too?

If the Monument Crusaders want to be logically consistent moralizers, Jefferson needs to go.

Jefferson not only was a slave owner---he apparently used them for sex slaves. So Jefferson was actually a worse character than Robert E Lee. Lee didn't own slaves, didn't like the institution and didn't even want to split from the North, but his allegiance was to his beloved state of VA. So off to war he went.

But the Crusaders run roughshod over such historical nuance. The only thing that matters is their moral judgments and proclamations. They apparently can't accept that all of the players who helped make this nation what it is---every one of them, had moral failings.

Arguably, their greatest sin was being born into an era and in a culture where human slavery was tolerated if not accepted. It's telling that this country gets zero credit for fighting a bloody civil war to end it.

But guess what, Crusaders. You don't need to time travel to find human slavery. There's plenty of it to be found, actually. Sex slavery is a big business in many parts of the world, for example. Join in the fight to end it.

But that means getting up off your ass and looking for it and doing something besides indulging in moral preening over a keyboard.

 

[Phantasmal]

If the Monument Crusaders want to be logically consistent moralizers, Jefferson needs to go.

Jefferson not only was a slave owner---he apparently used them for sex slaves. So Jefferson was actually a worse character than Robert E Lee. Lee didn't own slaves, didn't like the institution and didn't even want to split from the North, but his allegiance was to his beloved state of VA. So off to war he went.

But the Crusaders run roughshod over such historical nuance. The only thing that matters is their moral judgments and proclamations. They apparently can't accept that all of the players who helped make this nation what it is---every one of them, had moral failings.

Arguably, their greatest sin was being born into an era and in a culture where human slavery was tolerated if not accepted. It's telling that this country gets zero credit for fighting a bloody civil war to end it.

But guess what, Crusaders. You don't need to time travel to find human slavery. There's plenty of it to be found, actually. Sex slavery is a big business in many parts of the world, for example. Join in the fight to end it.

But that means getting up off your ass and looking for it and doing something besides indulging in moral preening over a keyboard.

Robert E Lee was a slave owner, so that just blew a hole in your post.

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

Who is doing the white washing here? Sterilizing history and whitewashing is what has been done for years, covering the flaws of these individuals is what was done in our past. Francis Scott Key and Jeffereon were both men who wrote of freedom while enslaving others, both men were deeply conflicted, knew slavery was wrong, but kept their slaves, anyway. We did not learn this in our history books in school, so tell me, again, who white washes history?

It's the Trump effect. Truth doesn't matter - exaggerations & myths are better when they favor the ruling class.

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

Politically tone deaf as always.

Not a wonder you guys are on a losing streak.

Wow - enjoy that one for as long as it lasts.

You guys must have had a rough time for awhile or something. I can't recall even once saying some variation of "nyah nyah, Obama won & you lost" after 2008, but you guys trot that shite out every day under Trump.

 

[anatta]

Who is doing the white washing here? Sterilizing history and whitewashing is what has been done for years, covering the flaws of these individuals is what was done in our past. Francis Scott Key and Jeffereon were both men who wrote of freedom while enslaving others, both men were deeply conflicted, knew slavery was wrong, but kept their slaves, anyway. We did not learn this in our history books in school, so tell me, again, who white washes history?

yet everyone here know of the Jefferson copulation with his slave. (Sally Henning was it?)

Anyone who has studied the Civil War knows Lee was greatly conflicted, but went with his home state of Virginia
as it was most common to have allegiance with one's state ( these United States being the common phrase used) more so than any to Washington DC. (The United States)

IOW's we have rectified the simplistic US history I was taught back in the 1960's. Agree it lacked depth.

But now we are at a turning point where ONLY THE FACT one was a slave holder,or in F Scott Key's case wrote ONE LINE in the poem is a COMPLETE DISQUALIFIER of any of their good works they have done.

we have gone from a lilly white history back in the 1950-s 60's, to a damnation of the same historical figures
in modern America.

PC madness threatens our understanding of our rich & complex history.

 

[Cypress]

Posted by Darth Omar .... "Robert E Lee. Lee didn't own slaves"...

Robert E Lee was a slave owner, so that just blew a hole in your post.

Nice work, Covfefe.

Man, just when I thought I could trust rightwing posters to tell the truth, to post accurate information.

I got lazy and just decided to accept this "Lee did not own slaves!" claim. But you can never let your guard down with rightwing posters. Darth Omar cannot be trusted and everything he posts needs to be fact checked.

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

Poor Robert E. Lee. So "conflicted" - if only people understood him better.

I guess he got over his "conflicts," because he still decided to LEAD THE FIGHT TO PRESERVE SLAVERY.

 

[Cypress]

Poor Robert E. Lee. So "conflicted" - if only people understood him better.

I guess he got over his "conflicts," because he still decided to LEAD THE FIGHT TO PRESERVE SLAVERY.

Slavery was wrong, no matter who owned slaves.

The difference between slave owner Robert E. Lee, and slave owner Thomas Jefferson?

Lee committed treason by picking up arms and waging war on American soldiers serving under the Stars and Stripes. Benedict Arnold deserved to be hung for less.

 

[anatta]

Poor Robert E. Lee. So "conflicted" - if only people understood him better.

I guess he got over his "conflicts," because he still decided to LEAD THE FIGHT TO PRESERVE SLAVERY.

you idiot.
I even broke it down for you. He was offered command of the US (northern) army -
but turned it down in favor of leading the Army of Northern Virginia..

He didn't do that because he wanted to lead an army to preserve slavery, he did it out of loyalty to his state

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

you idiot.
I even broke it down for you. He was offered command of the US (northern) army -
but turned it down in favor of leading the Army of Northern Virginia..

He didn't do that because he wanted to lead an army to preserve slavery, he did it out of loyalty to his state

And he wasn't aware that he was also leading the fight to preserve slavery?

Pathetic, annata. You're all the way down the rabbit hole.

 

[anatta]

Slavery was wrong, no matter who owned slaves.

The difference between slave owner Robert E. Lee, and slave owner Thomas Jefferson?

Lee committed treason by picking up arms and waging war on American soldiers serving under the Stars and Stripes. Benedict Arnold deserved to be hung for less.

you really need to broaden your perspective. Things are not always black and white -especially with the Civil War.

While it's generally agreed the South sought to secede to preserve slavery the individual or even army wide
reasons of individuals/groups were not monolithic .

You do a disservice to US history by not seeing the shades of grey

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

you really need to broaden your perspective. Things are not always black and white -especially with the Civil War.

While it's generally agreed the South sought to secede to preserve slavery the individual or even army wide
reasons of individuals/groups were not monolithic .

You do a disservice to US history by not seeing the shades of grey

Do you sympathize w/ Nazis who didn't really hate Jews but decided to join Hitler "for the homeland"?

 

[anatta]

And he wasn't aware that he was also leading the fight to preserve slavery?

Pathetic, annata. You're all the way down the rabbit hole.

of course he was "aware"- but from reading his letters and what others say about him it was far from his primary motivation. His allegiance to his home state was why he took command of the Army of Northern Virginia

Like I told CYPRESS history is not just "this or that"/black or white"

 

[anatta]

And he wasn't aware that he was also leading the fight to preserve slavery?

Pathetic, annata. You're all the way down the rabbit hole.

of course he was "aware"- but from reading his letters and what others say about him it was far from his primary motivation. His allegiance to his home state was why he took command of the Army of Northern Virginia

Like I told CYPRESS history is not just "this or that"/black or white"

 

[Darth Omar]

Robert E Lee was a slave owner, so that just blew a hole in your post.

One fact was wrong but the premise still stands.

Jefferson has to go.

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

One fact was wrong but the premise still stands.

Jefferson has to go.

Can we chalk that one up with "there was no coalition for Libya" and "Congress doesn't have the power to investigate" as teachable moments?

 

[Darth Omar]

you really need to broaden your perspective. Things are not always black and white -especially with the Civil War.

While it's generally agreed the South sought to secede to preserve slavery the individual or even army wide
reasons of individuals/groups were not monolithic .

You do a disservice to US history by not seeing the shades of grey

And they say people on the right are moral absolutists lol.

 

[anatta]

Do you sympathize w/ Nazis who didn't really hate Jews but decided to join Hitler "for the homeland"?

OMG ! do we need to veer off on Nazi's now?
I'm far from knowlegable about the motivations of various forces of the Wehrmacht..

I do know their were great divides in what "ordinary" German soldiers fought for compared to the SS Waffen etc.
But lets stick with US history..m'k?

 

[Darth Omar]

Can we chalk that one up with "there was no coalition for Libya" and "Congress doesn't have the power to investigate" as teachable moments?

Does your deflection indicate you concede the point?

 

[anatta]

And they say people on the right are moral absolutists lol.

OMG can you believe this?
Gawd forbid anyone fighting for the south had any noble intentions other then enslavement..

It's the same (lack of ) reasoning that causes statues of Robert E.Lee to be torn down, and next Columbus, next Jefferson..etc. etc.