Who’s Right and Wrong in the Middle East?

[moon]

Historically, national Israel goes back thousands of years. It's amazing that facts need debated these days. The UN didn't exist until 1945 and it was basically a product of WWII and present day Israel is in some ways a product of it.
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It's always satisfying to encounter a non-troll.
Yes, you're right- and anybody taking the trouble to understand the differences between ' nation ' and ' state ' will quickly realize that both Jews and Palestinians have been nations for a sizable chunk of documented history.
However, there was a sea-change in perceptions of nations, ' states' and their borders after WW2, as you rightly point out , with the development of the United Nations as a democratic world body intended to prevent the scourge of war forever. rge
The UN became the overseer of its members, with their consent, and it drew upon all extant customary , international and humanitarian law in order to forge an authority which could then arbitrate between member states. The borders of these member states were fixed and can never be changed without the consent of interested parties. No territory can ever be gained by means of war and , indeed, war itself is illegal.
The point I'm making here, again, is that the creatioin of the Uniited Nations- and the world's support for it- meant that modern international law became the highest authority. So historic claims to Palestine, Arab and Jewish , must conform to the authority of modern international law. It wouldn't matter one iota if somebody turned up with a set of stone tablets designating all of Palestine as being Arab and signed by god. The UN is a higher authority.

Palestine became a UN recognized state in 2012- although its statehood was held in trust since 1947.
Israel became a UN recognized state in 1948.

It's as simple as that.

Territory can never be gained by force and the Israeli occupation must end. It's the law.
These guys can all fuck off;

 

[cancel2 2022]

It's always satisfying to encounter a non-troll.
Yes, you're right- and anybody taking the trouble to understand the differences between ' nation ' and ' state ' will quickly realize that both Jews and Palestinians have been nations for a sizable chunk of documented history.
However, there was a sea-change in perceptions of nations, ' states' and their borders after WW2, as you rightly point out , with the development of the United Nations as a democratic world body intended to prevent the scourge of war forever. rge
The UN became the overseer of its members, with their consent, and it drew upon all extant customary , international and humanitarian law in order to forge an authority which could then arbitrate between member states. The borders of these member states were fixed and can never be changed without the consent of interested parties. No territory can ever be gained by means of war and , indeed, war itself is illegal.
The point I'm making here, again, is that the creatioin of the Uniited Nations- and the world's support for it- meant that modern international law became the highest authority. So historic claims to Palestine, Arab and Jewish , must conform to the authority of modern international law. It wouldn't matter one iota if somebody turned up with a set of stone tablets designating all of Palestine as being Arab and signed by god. The UN is a higher authority.

Palestine became a UN recognized state in 2012- although its statehood was held in trust since 1947.
Israel became a UN recognized state in 1948.

It's as simple as that.

Territory can never be gained by force and the Israeli occupation must end. It's the law.
These guys can all fuck off;

See post 56 and 58!! All you ever do is spout the same old crap over and over, I have given you many instances where territory has been captured and kept by the likes of the Russians and Chinese. It is also clear to me that you've been brought up to hate Jews as described by the excellent Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

 

[iolo]

Damn Ottoman colonialists lol.

Obviously. Are you entirely out of your tiny mind? What sort of bilge do you weirdoes project on sensible people? You must live in a very weird world.

 

[moon]

See post 56 and 58!! All you ever do is spout the same old crap over and over, I have given you many instances where territory has been captured and kept by the likes of the Russians and Chinese.

Each of the instances you've mentioned- and there are scant few- do not contravene international law . In the Tibetan case- an example that has been explained to you twice already as you appear abnormally thick- Tibet failed to register as a discrete territory before the Chinese influx. Blame the Dalai Llama of the period, not international law. It was an immoral act by the Chinese- but you'll enjoy rooting for Tibet rather than the immoral neoZionists, I'm sure. Let us know how you get on.



It is also clear to me that you've been brought up to hate Jews as described by the excellent[/QUOTE]

 

[cancel2 2022]

Each of the instances you've mentioned- and there are scant few- do not contravene international law . In the Tibetan case- an example that has been explained to you twice already as you appear abnormally thick- Tibet failed to register as a discrete territory before the Chinese influx. Blame the Dalai Llama of the period, not international law. It was an immoral act by the Chinese- but you'll enjoy rooting for Tibet rather than the immoral neoZionists, I'm sure. Let us know how you get on. It is also clear to me that you've been brought up to hate Jews as described by the excellent

[/QUOTE] Fuck international law, I am talking about morality, something you obviously know little about. Anyway do you really think that China cared about such niceties back then, they don't that much care even now.

 

[CFM]

It's always satisfying to encounter a non-troll.
Yes, you're right- and anybody taking the trouble to understand the differences between ' nation ' and ' state ' will quickly realize that both Jews and Palestinians have been nations for a sizable chunk of documented history.
However, there was a sea-change in perceptions of nations, ' states' and their borders after WW2, as you rightly point out , with the development of the United Nations as a democratic world body intended to prevent the scourge of war forever. rge
The UN became the overseer of its members, with their consent, and it drew upon all extant customary , international and humanitarian law in order to forge an authority which could then arbitrate between member states. The borders of these member states were fixed and can never be changed without the consent of interested parties. No territory can ever be gained by means of war and , indeed, war itself is illegal.
The point I'm making here, again, is that the creatioin of the Uniited Nations- and the world's support for it- meant that modern international law became the highest authority. So historic claims to Palestine, Arab and Jewish , must conform to the authority of modern international law. It wouldn't matter one iota if somebody turned up with a set of stone tablets designating all of Palestine as being Arab and signed by god. The UN is a higher authority.

Palestine became a UN recognized state in 2012- although its statehood was held in trust since 1947.
Israel became a UN recognized state in 1948.

It's as simple as that.

Territory can never be gained by force and the Israeli occupation must end. It's the law.
These guys can all fuck off;

Your definition of non-troll --- The person agrees with me.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

China is doing exactly that but you won't say anything about it. The Russians have captured many different territories including Kaliningrad and Karelia, the Chinese captured Tibet illegally as well. So there are plenty of legal precedents out there, but you will as always totally ignore them. http://www.salon.com/2014/03/27/7_parts_of_russia_that_other_countries_could_call_theirs_partner/

China had a claim to Tibet from the Qing dynasty. Recognition of the Tibetan state was also always very limited. China broke into many pieces during the Warlord era, Tibet was one of those pieces, and it was just the last to be put back together.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Good lord Darth...you need to study history. Islam was a superior civilization to Europe in the 12th century and the Rennassaince largely occurred in Western Europe due to the influences and ideas that Crusaders learned from the ME.

That and the Mongol conquest opened the Silk Road and trade with the Middle East and East began that had enormous historical influences that ultimately lead to the Rennassaince, the Reformation and the Age of Enlightenment in the west.

Islam defeated the west while simultaneously being nearly exterpated by the Mongols. That is to say, they defeated the Crusaders with one hand tied behind its back.

My point being that the Crusades had a huge impact on the west and a negligible one in the Middle East and even if the Crusaders had won they would have been annihilated by the Mongols.

The crusades was an impressive military venture, rarely before had anyone been able to project their power to distant regions like that. It was also pretty much doomed to failure, they were totally surrounded by enemies and didn't have good supply lines back to europe.

Israel would do well to learn from their example. You can't maintain a presence in a region merely through force for an extended period of time. Eventually there has to be negotiations and a final settlement.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

So what about Kaliningrad, Karelia and Tibet? The Russian Federation is a colonial occupier in the north Caucasus region, where Chechnya, Dagestan, and Ingushetia are populated by Muslim peoples, What about the Ogaden occupied by Ethiopia, or Kashmir by India? Oh and let's not forget Biafra which tried to break free from Nigeria in the 60s. Oh and the Kurds, whose country is split between Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey and Daesh.

What about the southern part of West Prussia that Poland took? People only seem to think that it's an outrage that Russia took a part. It's also inhabited almost exclusively by ethnic Russians.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Tibet only ever existed because the British wanted a border state between the Qing empire and British India. With the end of British colonialism its existence became irrelevant.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

I support the same position that the Dalai Lama supports - Tibetan autonomy within the PRC. That will come about through time.

 

[cancel2 2022]

I have a friend who is an expert on ME foreign policy. A real wonk. I once asked him that same question. He said "Who is right? No one. Who is wrong? Everyone."

His analysis, which I believe to be accurate, is that the ME major problem is that most of it is still a fifteenth century feudal society and have not had the equivalent of a renaissance, or an enlightenment era revolution to change its social structure. This has created large numbers of disaffected people living a peasant subsistence frustrated as they see modernity and its prosperity passing them by. This is in no small measure the source of religious radicalization in the region.

Yeh well you don't have to be an expert to figure that out. I mean just look at most Muslim societies, what do they produce, what do they invent? Look at Saudi Arabia or the UAE, they are not much different to Ancient Rome in many ways. They are still feudal societies in the main, stuck in the 7th century never mind the 15th century.

 

[cancel2 2022]

Tibet only ever existed because the British wanted a border state between the Qing empire and British India. With the end of British colonialism its existence became irrelevant.

That's specious bullshit. I would possibly accept that analysis if the Brits weren't in China as well. Thailand was an actual buffer state between the British and French Empires, which is why it was left alone!!

 

[anatta]

I support the same position that the Dalai Lama supports - Tibetan autonomy within the PRC. That will come about through time.

I don't think so, and even if it does Tibet will no longer be the cultural/religious identity of Tibet because of Hanization.
The Dalai Lama does not want his people to suffer anymore under the Chinese boot - knowing Tibet as a nation is done
It's the main reason he is choosing not to reincarnate ( that and the 11th Panchen Lama controversy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_Panchen_Lama_controversy

AT LONG LAST! Tibet's first KFC finally opens in Lhasa
http://shanghaiist.com/2016/03/09/kfc_opens_in_lhasa.php
At last, KFC has opened its first location in Tibet, right in downtown Lhasa. While China already has over 5,000 KFC franchises, it has taken them some 29 years to finally reach the "Roof of the World" and provide its people with some of the Colonel's famous fried chicken that they have apparently been clamoring for.

 

[moon]

There will always be a nation of Tibetans. They just don't have a recognized state.

In the case of the Palestinians they had a legal claim to statehood way back in 1947 under UNGAR 181. Just because they objected to giving over half of their country to their minority indigenous Jewish population does not mean that their legal claim was voided- contrary to the opinion of neoZionist boot-lickers and trolls. Palestine became a UN-recognized state in 2012. Now the illegal occupation by Israel must end. It's inevitable. International law is not going to bend and break over Israeli intransigence and criminality. We ALL live by it and we're not going to give it up for a bunch of ethnic-cleansing Zionists.


Sorry to block your attempt at diversion, Fool.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

I don't think so, and even if it does Tibet will no longer be the cultural/religious identity of Tibet because of Hanization.
The Dalai Lama does not want his people to suffer anymore under the Chinese boot - knowing Tibet as a nation is done
It's the main reason he is choosing not to reincarnate ( that and the 11th Panchen Lama controversy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_Panchen_Lama_controversy

AT LONG LAST! Tibet's first KFC finally opens in Lhasa
http://shanghaiist.com/2016/03/09/kfc_opens_in_lhasa.php
At last, KFC has opened its first location in Tibet, right in downtown Lhasa. While China already has over 5,000 KFC franchises, it has taken them some 29 years to finally reach the "Roof of the World" and provide its people with some of the Colonel's famous fried chicken that they have apparently been clamoring for.

Well you very well can't reverse the Hanization. It's the facts on the ground. Just like you can't reverse the Judaization of Palestine. The best option is for their to be some negotiation and settlement between the two parties. They should both give up the nationalistic dream of driving one or the other out and having it all to themselves.

 

[moon]

Well you very well can't reverse the Hanization. It's the facts on the ground. Just like you can't reverse the Judaization of Palestine. The best option is for their to be some negotiation and settlement between the two parties. They should both give up the nationalistic dream of driving one or the other out and having it all to themselves.

The occupation of Tibet can't be opposed as being illegal. It's immoral. The occupation of Palestine is both immoral and illegal- and it most certainly can be reversed. It doesn't matter how many squats the neoZionists construct in occupied territory. They will eventually be pulled down or used by Palestinians. Those squatters who choose to remain in the Palestinian state have already been offered the option of Palestinian nationality.

 

[anatta]

Well you very well can't reverse the Hanization. It's the facts on the ground. Just like you can't reverse the Judaization of Palestine. The best option is for their to be some negotiation and settlement between the two parties. They should both give up the nationalistic dream of driving one or the other out and having it all to themselves.

did you ever see the Chinese compromise on territory, when they can ever eventually seize it? I believe they still won't recognize Formosa. (Taiwan)

 

[Mott the Hoople]

The crusades was an impressive military venture, rarely before had anyone been able to project their power to distant regions like that. It was also pretty much doomed to failure, they were totally surrounded by enemies and didn't have good supply lines back to europe.

Israel would do well to learn from their example. You can't maintain a presence in a region merely through force for an extended period of time. Eventually there has to be negotiations and a final settlement.

The Romans did with quite a bit more success. Though Rome actually didn't obtain its ME province through military conquest. So your point is valid.

As impressive as the Crusaders were they would have been crushed by the Mongols and thr threat of Mongol invasion ultimately ended the Crusades.

 

[cancel2 2022]

did you ever see the Chinese compromise on territory, when they can ever eventually seize it? I believe they still won't recognize Formosa. (Taiwan)

I believe that there is a war looming over the South China Sea, it is very reminiscent of what happened prior to WW2 and the Japanese.