Conservative myth of the day

Steelplate said:
Please remind my where I talked about "free market socialism". I talked about not having a free market at all, but a rigged market. A market that is being helped with funding with our tax dollars.

EDIT: just guessing that you must go through a hell of a lot of weed.
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Sorry, I had you confused with another Marxist.

Okay.... Let's take your idea of not having a free market at all, and see where that leads. This was the original idea of Chairman Mao in China, and what is known as Maoism. He believed in the tenets of Marxist-Leninist Socialism and Communism, but he did not believe in free markets or capitalism as a means to achieve communism. Under his rule, all capitalists were rounded up and killed, and they confiscated all the wealth of the so-called "rich" people. From here, the idea was for Mao's central government to control trade and economy, on behalf of the people. YOUR idea! The very thing you are preaching here!

What resulted, is recorded in almost every world history book.

We do not have a "rigged market" in America. We do offer certain tax incentives to certain corporate interests because there is a fundamental purpose or reason behind it. Perhaps it's a needed service or product that isn't as desirable to a capitalist, and we need to give some incentive so that the product or service is available? Maybe we want to encourage certain investment, because it generates jobs and prosperity? These challenges are confronted by Congress in the form of various tax incentives, grants, and low-interest loans.

But what has been happening under Obama and the Democrats, is artificial stimulation of the economy by influxing about a trillion dollars a year into it. Our economy has been on life support for 5 years, while they slowly dismantle (through EO and regulation) the ability of capitalism to recover. But this is all part of the Grand Plan, you just keep churning up the class warfare rhetoric, keep talking about the unfairness of free market capitalism, keep attacking people who have been successful through capitalism, until you are ready to pull down the house of cards and kill free market capitalism for good.

The unfortunate thing is, you want to replace it with a system responsible for millions of deaths and unspeakable oppression. You claim that your idea is not this idea, because you've tweaked it and made it better, but that's what Socialists have told us for years and years. Every incarnation of it FAILS, it always has and always will. While free market capitalism continues to turn poor people into millionaires, produces unmatched economic prosperity, provides adequate jobs at adequate wages for millions, provides endless social nets and assistance programs.
 
Dixie said:
Sorry, I had you confused with another Marxist.

Okay.... Let's take your idea of not having a free market at all, and see where that leads. This was the original idea of Chairman Mao in China, and what is known as Maoism. He believed in the tenets of Marxist-Leninist Socialism and Communism, but he did not believe in free markets or capitalism as a means to achieve communism. Under his rule, all capitalists were rounded up and killed, and they confiscated all the wealth of the so-called "rich" people. From here, the idea was for Mao's central government to control trade and economy, on behalf of the people. YOUR idea! The very thing you are preaching here!

What resulted, is recorded in almost every world history book.

We do not have a "rigged market" in America. We do offer certain tax incentives to certain corporate interests because there is a fundamental purpose or reason behind it. Perhaps it's a needed service or product that isn't as desirable to a capitalist, and we need to give some incentive so that the product or service is available? Maybe we want to encourage certain investment, because it generates jobs and prosperity? These challenges are confronted by Congress in the form of various tax incentives, grants, and low-interest loans.

But what has been happening under Obama and the Democrats, is artificial stimulation of the economy by influxing about a trillion dollars a year into it. Our economy has been on life support for 5 years, while they slowly dismantle (through EO and regulation) the ability of capitalism to recover. But this is all part of the Grand Plan, you just keep churning up the class warfare rhetoric, keep talking about the unfairness of free market capitalism, keep attacking people who have been successful through capitalism, until you are ready to pull down the house of cards and kill free market capitalism for good.

The unfortunate thing is, you want to replace it with a system responsible for millions of deaths and unspeakable oppression. You claim that your idea is not this idea, because you've tweaked it and made it better, but that's what Socialists have told us for years and years. Every incarnation of it FAILS, it always has and always will. While free market capitalism continues to turn poor people into millionaires, produces unmatched economic prosperity, provides adequate jobs at adequate wages for millions, provides endless social nets and assistance programs.
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You are really expounding upon anything I've ever said. Don't tell me what you think I mean.
 
Steelplate said:
You are really expounding upon anything I've ever said. Don't tell me what you think I mean.
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I'm going by what you're posting. You've made several entries in this thread, bemoaning capitalism, corporate profits, and the free market system. Are you an Anarchist who thinks there should be anarchy and chaos in the streets and no economy? If not, then the only other thing you could possibly want to replace free market capitalism, is Socialism. Now you'll quickly try to claim that you don't advocate doing away with "free market capitalism" just having government take more control of it, but when that happens it is no longer "free market" and it becomes very much, a socialist type system. You can have free markets, or you can have markets controlled and manipulated by government and government cronies, you can't have both. We can't continue electing administrative regimes who pick winners and losers while manipulating markets with trillions of dollars they borrowed from China.

The ONLY solution for our economic problems as well as our debt problems, and even our health care problems and wealth disparity problems... the ONLY solution to these is a VIBRANT free market capitalist system. This means corporations have to be successful and make "record profits" and capitalist investors have to make money. Rich people have to become richer. Entrepreneurs have to be free to reach their horizons, and our Federal government has to get out of their way whenever they can, and let capitalism work. The constant droning about the 1% and corporate profits and multinationals.... is rhetoric, spewed by people who advocate a Socialist system, which WILL FAIL, because it alway HAS failed.
 
Dixie said:
I'm going by what you're posting. You've made several entries in this thread, bemoaning capitalism, corporate profits, and the free market system. Are you an Anarchist who thinks there should be anarchy and chaos in the streets and no economy? If not, then the only other thing you could possibly want to replace free market capitalism, is Socialism. Now you'll quickly try to claim that you don't advocate doing away with "free market capitalism" just having government take more control of it, but when that happens it is no longer "free market" and it becomes very much, a socialist type system. You can have free markets, or you can have markets controlled and manipulated by government and government cronies, you can't have both. We can't continue electing administrative regimes who pick winners and losers while manipulating markets with trillions of dollars they borrowed from China.

The ONLY solution for our economic problems as well as our debt problems, and even our health care problems and wealth disparity problems... the ONLY solution to these is a VIBRANT free market capitalist system. This means corporations have to be successful and make "record profits" and capitalist investors have to make money. Rich people have to become richer. Entrepreneurs have to be free to reach their horizons, and our Federal government has to get out of their way whenever they can, and let capitalism work. The constant droning about the 1% and corporate profits and multinationals.... is rhetoric, spewed by people who advocate a Socialist system, which WILL FAIL, because it alway HAS failed.
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Bullshit. THE ONLY thing I've ever said was that we don't have a free market. Sorry if you're in denial. Guess that comes from listening to sources that tell you business can do no wrong if it's legal, it's good.....and that anyone that questions the system is a "socialist".

You have no critical thinking skills at all. Brainwashed is a valid word for you. You see, I know that government is part of the problem....but you won't even CONSIDER the idea that business is too....that just about every aspect of our system has been corrupted to the point where it's geared to make massive profits and poor value for the consumer. That we subsidize these ventures through our tax dollars, and the country gets fleeced.

I could go on, but you have your mind made up already, so I won't bother.
 
Steelplate said:
Bullshit. THE ONLY thing I've ever said was that we don't have a free market. Sorry if you're in denial. Guess that comes from listening to sources that tell you business can do no wrong if it's legal, it's good.....and that anyone that questions the system is a "socialist".

You have no critical thinking skills at all. Brainwashed is a valid word for you. You see, I know that government is part of the problem....but you won't even CONSIDER the idea that business is too....that just about every aspect of our system has been corrupted to the point where it's geared to make massive profits and poor value for the consumer. That we subsidize these ventures through our tax dollars, and the country gets fleeced.

I could go on, but you have your mind made up already, so I won't bother.
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Ahhh, we don't HAVE a free market, therefore, when we destroy what we think of as the free market, we're not really destroying the free market, is that it? Nice angle, but it's just not supported by fact. We certainly DO have a free market.

Here is how Capitalism works in a free market... Demand is met by supply from a capitalist, who intends to capitalize by making profit. There is no such thing as a capitalist who doesn't want to make a profit. Profit means the product or service was of more value to the consumer than the cost to the supplier. If by some circumstance, the value is less to the consumer, another capitalist realizes the need from the consumer for a better product and capitalizes. This is how free market capitalism works. If you feel someone is being "fleeced" you are free to go out there and offer the product or service at a more fair price and be a super-successful capitalist, practicing free market capitalism.

What has happened is, people who have no experience as capitalists, and people who have no real idea of cost or value, have made assumptions based on feelings rather than facts. You feel like a price is too high, but you aren't the capitalist. You feel the consumer is being "fleeced" but again, you aren't the capitalist. You haven't crunched the numbers and figured up all the expenses and potential costs, analyzed markets and trends, and you don't have an investment at stake. In a free market capitalist system, you are perfectly free to offer the same product or service for a lower price, if you think the price is too high.

Let's have an example here... Southwest Airlines. A while back, a capitalist looked at the air travel market and realized, the cost was very high, and there was an opportunity to capitalize on consumers looking to save money on air travel. So they built a company and offered a service at a lower price, and they did this by eliminating "frills" the other airlines had. This was wildly successful because many consumers were more compelled to save some money than to have the extra frills. Not all consumers wanted this, some preferred to use the airlines with the frills, but Southwest was able to capitalize on a consumer need.

In a free market system, when someone is "getting fleeced" there is another capitalist out there who comes along with a better deal, to respond to consumer demand. If there is ANY business where you know this is happening, you are FREE to go out there and offer the service or product for less, and become super-successful as a capitalist. So this idea that Capitalism operates in a vacuum, and simply exists to bilk people of money and take advantage of them, is just not accurate and illustrates an ignorance of how capitalism works.
 
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Dixie said:
Ahhh, we don't HAVE a free market, therefore, when we destroy what we think of as the free market, we're not really destroying the free market, is that it? Nice angle, but it's just not supported by fact. We certainly DO have a free market.

Here is how Capitalism works in a free market... Demand is met by supply from a capitalist, who intends to capitalize by making profit. There is no such thing as a capitalist who doesn't want to make a profit. Profit means the product or service was of more value to the consumer than the cost to the supplier. If by some circumstance, the value is less to the consumer, another capitalist realizes the need from the consumer for a better product and capitalizes. This is how free market capitalism works. If you feel someone is being "fleeced" you are free to go out there and offer the product or service at a more fair price and be a super-successful capitalist, practicing free market capitalism.

What has happened is, people who have no experience as capitalists, and people who have no real idea of cost or value, have made assumptions based on feelings rather than facts. You feel like a price is too high, but you aren't the capitalist. You feel the consumer is being "fleeced" but again, you aren't the capitalist. You haven't crunched the numbers and figured up all the expenses and potential costs, analyzed markets and trends, and you don't have an investment at stake. In a free market capitalist system, you are perfectly free to offer the same product or service for a lower price, if you think the price is too high.

Let's have an example here... Southwest Airlines. A while back, a capitalist looked at the air travel market and realized, the cost was very high, and there was an opportunity to capitalize on consumers looking to save money on air travel. So they built a company and offered a service at a lower price, and they did this by eliminating "frills" the other airlines had. This was wildly successful because many consumers were more compelled to save some money than to have the extra frills. Not all consumers wanted this, some preferred to use the airlines with the frills, but Southwest was able to capitalize on a consumer need.

In a free market system, when someone is "getting fleeced" there is another capitalist out there who comes along with a better deal, to respond to consumer demand. If there is ANY business where you know this is happening, you are FREE to go out there and offer the service or product for less, and become super-successful as a capitalist. So this idea that Capitalism operates in a vacuum, and simply exists to bilk people of money and take advantage of them, is just not accurate and illustrates an ignorance of how capitalism works.
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When did i day blow up and replace it with Socialism? As to the rest of your diatribe...it's bullshit. Where's all these better deals at? Who's offering lower medical prices? Oh, that's right....the "Capitalists"..... and I use the term loosely....have a monopoly here. Where's the better deals in education? Energy? Food? Sure. If your goal for society is to have cheap 60" flat screens....well, hell....we're doing great.

Everything that is a necessity in this country? Is fucking expensive....and the jobs that fueled our economy and made it work went away.

If that's your idea of Capitalism...then I disagree.

Because it's not Capitalism. It's Corporatism.
 
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Steelplate said:
I

When did i day blow up and replace it with Socialism? As to the rest of your diatribe...it's bullshit. Where's all these better deals at? Who's offering lower medical prices? Oh, that's right....the "Capitalists"..... and I use the term loosely....have a monopoly here. Where's the better deals in education? Energy? Food? Sure. If your goal for society is to have cheap 60" flat screens....well, hell....we're doing great.

Everything that is a necessity in this country? Is fucking expensive....and the jobs that fueled our economy and made it work went away.

If that's your idea of Capitalism...then I disagree.

Because it's not Capitalism. It's Corporatism.
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Well if you are going to destroy free market capitalism, it has to be replaced with something or the entire economy collapses. This happened under Mao in China and 70 million people died. I have to assume, since you think there is all this "unfairness" in the free market capitalist system, that you favor some kind of government-level control or regulation of it, to supposedly ensure "fairness." This logically has to be the case, or you advocate anarchy. If you favor government control over the means of capitalism, you favor Socialism over free market capitalism. Whether you realize this is what you support or not, I have no way of knowing.

You continue to mention "medical costs" and demand to know where the "better deals" are, but here's the thing... when it comes to ANYTHING related to the medical industry, we have built a mountain of standards and policies which have to be met, we have allowed every possible lawsuit to prevail and unlimited awards to be paid, liability is totally on the capitalist, in the name of public safety, in order to ensure the best possible products and services, and PEOPLE, in this industry. Because this is the level of service we want and expect as consumers when dealing with things like our health, it is inherently very expensive to provide. In a free market capitalist system, if it COULD be done for less, it WOULD be done for less.... YOU are free to do it for less, if you want.
 
Dixie said:
Well if you are going to destroy free market capitalism, it has to be replaced with something or the entire economy collapses. This happened under Mao in China and 70 million people died. I have to assume, since you think there is all this "unfairness" in the free market capitalist system, that you favor some kind of government-level control or regulation of it, to supposedly ensure "fairness." This logically has to be the case, or you advocate anarchy. If you favor government control over the means of capitalism, you favor Socialism over free market capitalism. Whether you realize this is what you support or not, I have no way of knowing.

You continue to mention "medical costs" and demand to know where the "better deals" are, but here's the thing... when it comes to ANYTHING related to the medical industry, we have built a mountain of standards and policies which have to be met, we have allowed every possible lawsuit to prevail and unlimited awards to be paid, liability is totally on the capitalist, in the name of public safety, in order to ensure the best possible products and services, and PEOPLE, in this industry. Because this is the level of service we want and expect as consumers when dealing with things like our health, it is inherently very expensive to provide. In a free market capitalist system, if it COULD be done for less, it WOULD be done for less.... YOU are free to do it for less, if you want.
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I'm done. You are living in a fantasy world. You are a true believer in the system the way it is. You either don't or can't believe that big business can manipulate government to create a massively rigged market. And if you do, by chance believe it, you obviously feel that it is perfectly OK to do so.

I suggest replacing the current rigged market system and RETURN it to the system that made us a great Nation. A truly free market where competition thrives. Not a rigged one where big business plays and pays government to do their bidding to avoid competition, help finance their costs, finance their failures....and keep all the profit. The bank bailouts in '08 was only the tip of the iceberg.

But as long as people like you believe that nothing is wrong, that the interests of big business is premium and the interests of the Nation and its people are insignificant and irrelevant, then I am just talking to a wall....and I refuse to do that.

Pick up the book "Greedy Bastards". Of course, if you were to read it, we'd have to put a "true believer" like you on suicide watch. Because your whole mindset is one of...we have Capitalism now...no, we have Vampire industries that use OUR government and OUR public funds to extract wealth from our country and put it in their pockets.
 
Steelplate said:
I'm done. You are living in a fantasy world. You are a true believer in the system the way it is. You either don't or can't believe that big business can manipulate government to create a massively rigged market. And if you do, by chance believe it, you obviously feel that it is perfectly OK to do so.

I suggest replacing the current rigged market system and RETURN it to the system that made us a great Nation. A truly free market where competition thrives. Not a rigged one where big business plays and pays government to do their bidding to avoid competition, help finance their costs, finance their failures....and keep all the profit. The bank bailouts in '08 was only the tip of the iceberg.
But as long as people like you believe that nothing is wrong, that the interests of big business is premium and the interests of the Nation and its people are insignificant and irrelevant, then I am just talking to a wall....and I refuse to do that.

Pick up the book "Greedy Bastards". Of course, if you were to read it, we'd have to put a "true believer" like you on suicide watch. Because your whole mindset is one of...we have Capitalism now...no, we have Vampire industries that use OUR government and OUR public funds to extract wealth from our country and put it in their pockets.
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I was opposed to the bailouts and stimulus, and these are not examples of how a free market capitalist system is supposed to work. The concept of "too big to fail" is ANTI-free market. I can't help that politicians voted for this against my will, but apparently, the fact I didn't go after them with my pitchfork and torch, and overthrow the government, means I must be a prole who supported it. In any event, you seem to be blaming me for this, even though I think it's a very good example of why government should stay the fuck out of capitalism.

The rest of your rant is silly, and shows just as much of a misunderstanding when it comes to free market capitalism. I will say this again, if ANY COMPANY is out there, making obscene profits and taking advantage of consumers, you or any other capitalist is free to start a competing company who values the customer and doesn't rip them off, and this company will become super-successful competing against the "greedy bastard" company. If a politician has been corrupted by corporate payoffs, it's OUR job to kick those politicians out of office or put them in prison. But since you haven't given any specific example, it's hard to go after a platitude.
 
Dixie said:
I was opposed to the bailouts and stimulus, and these are not examples of how a free market capitalist system is supposed to work. The concept of "too big to fail" is ANTI-free market. I can't help that politicians voted for this against my will, but apparently, the fact I didn't go after them with my pitchfork and torch, and overthrow the government, means I must be a prole who supported it. In any event, you seem to be blaming me for this, even though I think it's a very good example of why government should stay the fuck out of capitalism.

The rest of your rant is silly, and shows just as much of a misunderstanding when it comes to free market capitalism. I will say this again, if ANY COMPANY is out there, making obscene profits and taking advantage of consumers, you or any other capitalist is free to start a competing company who values the customer and doesn't rip them off, and this company will become super-successful competing against the "greedy bastard" company. If a politician has been corrupted by corporate payoffs, it's OUR job to kick those politicians out of office or put them in prison. But since you haven't given any specific example, it's hard to go after a platitude.
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Are we free to do so? Where's the Capital coming from? The rigged banking sector you say? The very people that lobbied for and won the bailouts that we both despise? The ones that helped perpetuate the outsourcing of jobs, who offered easy credit to everyone when consumers started to feel the pinch of that outsourcing( not to mention downsizing)? They are part of the problem.

Do me a favor....read the book that I mentioned. You will understand where I am coming from. And no, it is not a "Socialist Agenda" book from some "librul". Ratigan is a well respected economic journalist. $10 for something that may open your eyes a little is money well spent. Hell, I bet you could find it cheaper in the used section of Amazon.
 
Steelplate said:
Are we free to do so? Where's the Capital coming from? The rigged banking sector you say? The very people that lobbied for and won the bailouts that we both despise? The ones that helped perpetuate the outsourcing of jobs, who offered easy credit to everyone when consumers started to feel the pinch of that outsourcing( not to mention downsizing)? They are part of the problem.

Do me a favor....read the book that I mentioned. You will understand where I am coming from. And no, it is not a "Socialist Agenda" book from some "librul". Ratigan is a well respected economic journalist. $10 for something that may open your eyes a little is money well spent. Hell, I bet you could find it cheaper in the used section of Amazon.
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Yes, the banks are rigged, the system is rigged, everyone is against you, nothing is fair, and it's all being controlled by greedy rich capitalists, who gained wealth status and power on the backs of the poor working man. Yes... I have been hearing versions of this CRAP for 40 years. I don't need to read a book, in fact, I highly suspect that is your problem here. You've read (and bought) propaganda. I know you say it's not, but most effective propaganda sounds nothing at all like propaganda...that's the whole idea. Look at what you continue to post and the claims you continue to make, and look at how many SOLUTIONS you've actually suggested. It's because you don't have a solution to inherent problems that are always going to exist, no one does. We're always going to have greedy people, we'll always have people trying to exploit the systems for their advantage, bribes and payoffs are always going to exist. Some politicians and businessmen are going to be corrupt and crooked, and these are facts of life. There is no Utopia where these things do not happen. There is no perfect system.

You are carrying the water for people who wish to destroy free market capitalism, in order to implement Socialist/Communist government. This all starts by turning you against capitalists, "the rich", bankers, politicians, and the system. THE PROBLEM is, once you have been successful at turning the people against free market capitalism, you can't ever go back. You will enslave generations under a regime of brutal socialism and communism, where millions of people are going to die, because they always do. There won't be LESS corruption and rigging of the system, there will be MORE, and it will be done by people you are powerless to hold accountable. The 1% will no longer be the "greedy capitalist" you'll take care of THAT problem, they'll be replaced by the 1% authoritarians who control all political power AND wealth. When you revolt against this, you will be lined up in front of an open ditch and executed.
 
Steelplate said:
I've seen the name "moot" twice now....is that Dixie Chick?

BTW....I like adding chick to it....It's fun. Because a while back, the Dixie Chicks were called traitors by Righties.
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He's talking about the thread author, Mott.

Wow... I am glad you explained "Dixie Chick" for us, we all live under rocks here, and had no idea! How clever you are!
 
Steelplate said:
I've seen the name "moot" twice now....is that Dixie Chick?

BTW....I like adding chick to it....It's fun. Because a while back, the Dixie Chicks were called traitors by Righties.
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It's his nickname for me. For some reason DY likes to accuse others of running when they've pwned him.
 
Dixie said:
Yes, the banks are rigged, the system is rigged, everyone is against you, nothing is fair, and it's all being controlled by greedy rich capitalists, who gained wealth status and power on the backs of the poor working man. Yes... I have been hearing versions of this CRAP for 40 years. I don't need to read a book, in fact, I highly suspect that is your problem here. You've read (and bought) propaganda. I know you say it's not, but most effective propaganda sounds nothing at all like propaganda...that's the whole idea. Look at what you continue to post and the claims you continue to make, and look at how many SOLUTIONS you've actually suggested. It's because you don't have a solution to inherent problems that are always going to exist, no one does. We're always going to have greedy people, we'll always have people trying to exploit the systems for their advantage, bribes and payoffs are always going to exist. Some politicians and businessmen are going to be corrupt and crooked, and these are facts of life. There is no Utopia where these things do not happen. There is no perfect system.

You are carrying the water for people who wish to destroy free market capitalism, in order to implement Socialist/Communist government. This all starts by turning you against capitalists, "the rich", bankers, politicians, and the system. THE PROBLEM is, once you have been successful at turning the people against free market capitalism, you can't ever go back. You will enslave generations under a regime of brutal socialism and communism, where millions of people are going to die, because they always do. There won't be LESS corruption and rigging of the system, there will be MORE, and it will be done by people you are powerless to hold accountable. The 1% will no longer be the "greedy capitalist" you'll take care of THAT problem, they'll be replaced by the 1% authoritarians who control all political power AND wealth. When you revolt against this, you will be lined up in front of an open ditch and executed.
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Of course it's rigged and unfair Dixie....that's what you pay politicians for. To make things unfair....preferably for someone else! LOL
 
Steelplate said:
I've seen the name "moot" twice now....is that Dixie Chick?

BTW....I like adding chick to it....It's fun. Because a while back, the Dixie Chicks were called traitors by Righties.
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For a long time after I came here I thought Dixie was a chick. Then someone sent me a picture of him.




I still don't know for sure...
 
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